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Author Topic: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold  (Read 13647 times)

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Davio

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Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« on: May 24, 2012, 02:12:05 am »
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This is not really a puzzle, nor a challenge, but a genuine question.

When Noble Brigand hits both Silver and Gold, would you ever take the Silver over the Gold?
I can think of an obvious scenarios like Fairgrounds but not much others.
I do have another funny one, but I'll save it for now.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2012, 03:15:29 am »
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1. You're building HP+X and somehow already have Gold in your deck but don't yet have Silver.  Maybe the one Silver you got had been stolen! ;)

2. Last turn, your opponent's NB hit Silver and Gold and he mistakenly clicks on Silver.  You, being a shining paragon of Isotropic Civility, decide to return the accidental favour.  ;D

3. NB trashes the Silver or Gold before you actually gain it.  Maybe there will be some funky interaction with one of the new "cares about the trash" cards where you'd rather have the Silver go into the trash, even if only briefly.
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Axxle

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2012, 03:17:01 am »
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1) Your opponent has two cards left in his deck/discard and you want to swindler his gold into an adventurer.
2) You're playing against your SO ;)
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paddyodoors

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2012, 03:27:53 am »
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1. You're building HP+X and somehow already have Gold in your deck but don't yet have Silver.  Maybe the one Silver you got had been stolen! ;)

This #1 is of course technically possible, but how often are you going to be playing HP+X where NB is the X?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2012, 03:31:42 am »
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1. You're building HP+X and somehow already have Gold in your deck but don't yet have Silver.  Maybe the one Silver you got had been stolen! ;)

This #1 is of course technically possible, but how often are you going to be playing HP+X where NB is the X?

Touche.  Umm... maybe your Swindler was swindled and that was the worse $4 on the board, at least for a HP stack.  Definitely stretching things, but hey, it's a puzzle!

1) Your opponent has two cards left in his deck/discard and you want to swindler his gold into an adventurer.

Similar set up:

Your opponent has two cards left in his deck/discard and you're going to KC+Jester next.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 03:34:35 am by eHalcyon »
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Julle

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2012, 03:36:39 am »
+6

One Province left, you are down by 5 points. You have Watchtower and Harvest in hand and top 4 cards on your deck are: Copper, Village, Gold and Gold (you played Scout earlier). You gain a Silver and topdeck it with Watchtower, so you get 4$ from your harvest which is just enough to buy the last Province
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ftl

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2012, 03:50:23 am »
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This #1 is of course technically possible, but how often are you going to be playing HP+X where NB is the X?

Dunno, HP+NB seems pretty reasonable as far as an HP+X goes. Why WOULDN'T you play it? I mean, it's not as great as HP+Baron or something, but it seems like it would be pretty good.
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def

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2012, 04:09:37 am »
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Simple Stupid ones that don't work because I apparently don't know anything about the game:
Gold pile is empty.

Silver pile will be empty if you gain a Silver triggering a three pile ending you need to win.

Complicated:
You already played 4 Highways and some kind of Village. You have Upgrade/Remake in hand and will draw the card you gain by Noble Brigand. A Silver costs 0$ now and can be trashed into the gamewinning Duchy, a Gold can't.
Something similar works with Forge even without Highways; you need the Silver but not the Gold.


You have a Watchtower, an Apprentice, something else that draws one card and exactly 3 cards left in deck. You want to trash the gained card but don't want to trigger a reshuffle, so you pick Silver over Gold.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 04:22:02 am by def »
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dondon151

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 04:19:45 am »
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Silver pile will be empty if you gain a Silver triggering a three pile ending you need to win.

I don't understand how this is possible if there is no net change of Silver in the supply from NB...
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Davio

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 04:20:57 am »
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@Def: You get his trashed Silver, not a Silver from the pile.

I forgot what I originally concocted, but here's a complicated one:


You have Watchtower and can put the Silver on top AND draw it with something (couple of Villages).
Now you already have a Gold in your hand and otherwise unique cards (no Silver).
Menagerie says hi. Expected value from +3 cards is higher than $1 difference between Gold and Silver.


Ah, I remembered!


Again, Watchtower it on top.

It's a Governor game with Gardens/SR/Island and close to the last turn for your opponent who is next.
The Silver gives you some protection as you can upgrade it to a VP card and sneak a crucial extra point or two.
Sure, grabbing the Gold may hurt the Governor player more, but that's why this is a complicated example.

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def

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2012, 04:21:23 am »
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Yeah...this renders my other simple solution useless, too. :-\
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 07:09:16 am »
+2

You know your opponent is holding KC - KC - Smugglers - Smugglers - Smugglers?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2012, 08:48:51 am »
+2

...(you played Scout earlier)...

So, again, swindler or fairgrounds/HoP is involved? :D

paddyodoors

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 01:38:00 pm »
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This #1 is of course technically possible, but how often are you going to be playing HP+X where NB is the X?

Dunno, HP+NB seems pretty reasonable as far as an HP+X goes. Why WOULDN'T you play it? I mean, it's not as great as HP+Baron or something, but it seems like it would be pretty good.

I didn't say HP+NB wasn't a thing.  I asked how often are you going to be playing it as a strategy?  So I'll ask you the same thing... if it is so reasonable, how often have you played it, ftl?  With all due respect, I'm guessing not much.

The reason I think that it isn't so good is that NB only gives you $1 and the gained cards will dilute your chances of drawing HP in your hand in your initial 5 cards for each turn.  So yeah, that's a reason why I wouldn't play it.  At least not as a strat.  If I happened to get it due to some Swindler shenanigans like eHalcyon mentioned, sure, I'd play it.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2012, 02:04:32 pm »
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This #1 is of course technically possible, but how often are you going to be playing HP+X where NB is the X?

Dunno, HP+NB seems pretty reasonable as far as an HP+X goes. Why WOULDN'T you play it? I mean, it's not as great as HP+Baron or something, but it seems like it would be pretty good.

I didn't say HP+NB wasn't a thing.  I asked how often are you going to be playing it as a strategy?  So I'll ask you the same thing... if it is so reasonable, how often have you played it, ftl?  With all due respect, I'm guessing not much.

The reason I think that it isn't so good is that NB only gives you $1 and the gained cards will dilute your chances of drawing HP in your hand in your initial 5 cards for each turn.  So yeah, that's a reason why I wouldn't play it.  At least not as a strat.  If I happened to get it due to some Swindler shenanigans like eHalcyon mentioned, sure, I'd play it.
Nah, the dilution is not really a problem. I think the thing really is, there's usually some other better terminal silver. As in... a terminal silver. Actually, it's a little better than some of the worse ones (duchess and navigator for sure, but also something like chancellor).

jomini

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2012, 02:58:45 pm »
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Several ones I see:
You have already ended the game this turn with gov gold -> province so there are no more provinces. A silver, if drawn and remodeled can become a duchy, a gold cannot.

You intend to draw and forge the silver with a 5 for a province; you lack any 2 cost cards with which to forge a gold into a province.

You are using possession and will buy more point from his deck than yours.

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paddyodoors

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2012, 03:02:05 pm »
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This #1 is of course technically possible, but how often are you going to be playing HP+X where NB is the X?

Dunno, HP+NB seems pretty reasonable as far as an HP+X goes. Why WOULDN'T you play it? I mean, it's not as great as HP+Baron or something, but it seems like it would be pretty good.

I didn't say HP+NB wasn't a thing.  I asked how often are you going to be playing it as a strategy?  So I'll ask you the same thing... if it is so reasonable, how often have you played it, ftl?  With all due respect, I'm guessing not much.

The reason I think that it isn't so good is that NB only gives you $1 and the gained cards will dilute your chances of drawing HP in your hand in your initial 5 cards for each turn.  So yeah, that's a reason why I wouldn't play it.  At least not as a strat.  If I happened to get it due to some Swindler shenanigans like eHalcyon mentioned, sure, I'd play it.
Nah, the dilution is not really a problem. I think the thing really is, there's usually some other better terminal silver. As in... a terminal silver. Actually, it's a little better than some of the worse ones (duchess and navigator for sure, but also something like chancellor).

So I'll ask you the same thing... if it is so reasonable, how often have you played it, WW?  With all due respect, I'm guessing not much.

Not trying to be flippant or sassy.  Just honestly curious.  If it is a thing, then cool.  However, I haven't yet seen anyone posting a log or a game report where they are like "HP+NB was the key strat here.  It is a thing."  The responses from you and ftl are the first rumblings I've ever heard of it as a thing.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2012, 03:35:58 pm »
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This #1 is of course technically possible, but how often are you going to be playing HP+X where NB is the X?

Dunno, HP+NB seems pretty reasonable as far as an HP+X goes. Why WOULDN'T you play it? I mean, it's not as great as HP+Baron or something, but it seems like it would be pretty good.

I didn't say HP+NB wasn't a thing.  I asked how often are you going to be playing it as a strategy?  So I'll ask you the same thing... if it is so reasonable, how often have you played it, ftl?  With all due respect, I'm guessing not much.

The reason I think that it isn't so good is that NB only gives you $1 and the gained cards will dilute your chances of drawing HP in your hand in your initial 5 cards for each turn.  So yeah, that's a reason why I wouldn't play it.  At least not as a strat.  If I happened to get it due to some Swindler shenanigans like eHalcyon mentioned, sure, I'd play it.
Nah, the dilution is not really a problem. I think the thing really is, there's usually some other better terminal silver. As in... a terminal silver. Actually, it's a little better than some of the worse ones (duchess and navigator for sure, but also something like chancellor).

So I'll ask you the same thing... if it is so reasonable, how often have you played it, WW?  With all due respect, I'm guessing not much.

Not trying to be flippant or sassy.  Just honestly curious.  If it is a thing, then cool.  However, I haven't yet seen anyone posting a log or a game report where they are like "HP+NB was the key strat here.  It is a thing."  The responses from you and ftl are the first rumblings I've ever heard of it as a thing.
I haven't played it a lot, no. In fact, I haven't played it ever. Which is totally irrelevant to how strong it is. The two cards don't come up for often, and there's often something better. But I mean, seriously, I've had it come up 7 times. 7. I think 2-3 of them I should have played it but did not. I miss stuff. It's not like something is good because I play it, or bad because I don't. I'm not saying it's great.
I ask you paddyodoors, since this is something you ACTUALLY CLAIMED: How the heck is the Silver/Gold actually diluting your deck as in making it worse??? (Hint: it isn't).

Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2012, 03:45:25 pm »
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Yeah, if you're drawing a Silver/Gold instead of a Hunting Party, that's pretty good.
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popsofctown

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2012, 04:44:56 pm »
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You have a Silk Road strategy and you want to buy a Farmland with a Silver in hand, rather than drain the Province pile.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2012, 04:48:30 pm »
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I haven't played it a lot, no. In fact, I haven't played it ever. Which is totally irrelevant to how strong it is. The two cards don't come up for often, and there's often something better. But I mean, seriously, I've had it come up 7 times. 7. I think 2-3 of them I should have played it but did not. I miss stuff. It's not like something is good because I play it, or bad because I don't. I'm not saying it's great.
I ask you paddyodoors, since this is something you ACTUALLY CLAIMED: How the heck is the Silver/Gold actually diluting your deck as in making it worse??? (Hint: it isn't).

HP/NB seems interesting to me.  HP+X engines usually want terminal coin or an attack to spam.  NB offers both.  and as pointed out, bloating your deck with silver and gold is not really a bad thing.
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paddyodoors

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2012, 04:50:08 pm »
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This #1 is of course technically possible, but how often are you going to be playing HP+X where NB is the X?

Dunno, HP+NB seems pretty reasonable as far as an HP+X goes. Why WOULDN'T you play it? I mean, it's not as great as HP+Baron or something, but it seems like it would be pretty good.

I didn't say HP+NB wasn't a thing.  I asked how often are you going to be playing it as a strategy?  So I'll ask you the same thing... if it is so reasonable, how often have you played it, ftl?  With all due respect, I'm guessing not much.

The reason I think that it isn't so good is that NB only gives you $1 and the gained cards will dilute your chances of drawing HP in your hand in your initial 5 cards for each turn.  So yeah, that's a reason why I wouldn't play it.  At least not as a strat.  If I happened to get it due to some Swindler shenanigans like eHalcyon mentioned, sure, I'd play it.
Nah, the dilution is not really a problem. I think the thing really is, there's usually some other better terminal silver. As in... a terminal silver. Actually, it's a little better than some of the worse ones (duchess and navigator for sure, but also something like chancellor).

So I'll ask you the same thing... if it is so reasonable, how often have you played it, WW?  With all due respect, I'm guessing not much.

Not trying to be flippant or sassy.  Just honestly curious.  If it is a thing, then cool.  However, I haven't yet seen anyone posting a log or a game report where they are like "HP+NB was the key strat here.  It is a thing."  The responses from you and ftl are the first rumblings I've ever heard of it as a thing.
I haven't played it a lot, no. In fact, I haven't played it ever. Which is totally irrelevant to how strong it is. The two cards don't come up for often, and there's often something better. But I mean, seriously, I've had it come up 7 times. 7. I think 2-3 of them I should have played it but did not. I miss stuff. It's not like something is good because I play it, or bad because I don't. I'm not saying it's great.
I ask you paddyodoors, since this is something you ACTUALLY CLAIMED: How the heck is the Silver/Gold actually diluting your deck as in making it worse??? (Hint: it isn't).

1. More nested quotes ftw.  Thanks for not breaking the chain.  For serious.  I'm not breaking the chain.

2. Remember I said that I think it isn't so good.  (See the fourth quote up in the nest from here).  I never outright claimed some definitve knowledge that it isn't good, only that I had the non-certain line of reasoning in my mind which concluded that is isn't good.  I took a position, defended it with my line of reasoning.  Little Dominion peons like me get things wrong a lot, if indeed wrong I am.  Dog bites man, where's the news?

3. If the key to HP+X is getting provinces, and in order to do that you need to either: be dealt enough to buy the Province outright or an HP chain resulting in the play of X and/or $8 in hand, then having more money in your deck seems to me to only be spreading out your HPs, making the probability that you draw an HP in each starting hand lower.  'Course the flipside of this coin is the fact that this probability is made lower by the fact that you have more money, which is the goal of HP+X in the first place... getting the money to buy the prov.

But if the money doesn't hurt, then why does the HP+X article assert that you should really only be buying 1-3 Silvers and no more?  And only 1 Gold?  Well, nevermind, I understand the Gold.  Another HP is preferable to a Gold, since the Gold will be found by the digging of the HPs.  But why a limit on Silver if it is supposedly good?  And that leads me to my final point...

4. Like i'm not some brilliant independent thinker, man.  Nor have I ever claimed to be.  I don't pose as a great Dominion-player.  I have thoughts, share them, generally include caveats, and get it wrong.  Probably a decent short-story version of my life, actually.  My point: Guys like me, we read something that some bigwig wrote in an article on the blog and think it's Gospel truth.  You tell me that I should't have more than 3 Silvers, fine -- 3 Silver limit it is.  NB gains you Silvers.  Must be bad, right guys?  I don't know, so let me throw it out there, argue my thought based on principles that I am sure exist.  So apparently the bigwigs say that I'm wrong, that more Silvers in a HP+X deck are nothing but good.  Guess I'm wrong then.  Don't know how to now reconcile the two seemingly contradictory thoughts about it, but rhetorical questions that end posts responding to me on the subject are pretty helpful.  But does anyone really owe me any sort of help? (Hint: they don't.)

I doubt I've ever had one truly new or innovative thought about this game -- it is mostly just leeching off of others that I've gotten to be where I am today.  Now, I'm sure you're thinking "man, you can't be like that, you've gotta think for yourself and draw your own conclusions and be creative or you'll never be great."  And you're right.  I see that, too, especially the conclusion.

I probably should take extra sips of chill-juice before writing responses, but it just kinda had to flow.  Everyone: if my text-wall above doesn't agree with you, feel free to disregard.  Dog bites man.

Oh, and Paul -- thanks for letting me know, man.  That did help put it into relief for me. ;D
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greatexpectations

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2012, 04:53:29 pm »
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But if the money doesn't hurt, then why does the HP+X article assert that you should really only be buying 1-3 Silvers and no more?  And only 1 Gold?  Well, nevermind, I understand the Gold.  Another HP is preferable to a Gold, since the Gold will be found by the digging of the HPs.  But why a limit on Silver if it is supposedly good?  And that leads me to my final point...

i think a lot of that has to do with not using buys that could be HP on silver/gold.  without +buy you want to hammer at that HP pile.  NB lets you steal some economy while still pounding at the HP pile. 
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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2012, 05:27:54 pm »
0

This #1 is of course technically possible, but how often are you going to be playing HP+X where NB is the X?

Dunno, HP+NB seems pretty reasonable as far as an HP+X goes. Why WOULDN'T you play it? I mean, it's not as great as HP+Baron or something, but it seems like it would be pretty good.

I didn't say HP+NB wasn't a thing.  I asked how often are you going to be playing it as a strategy?  So I'll ask you the same thing... if it is so reasonable, how often have you played it, ftl?  With all due respect, I'm guessing not much.

The reason I think that it isn't so good is that NB only gives you $1 and the gained cards will dilute your chances of drawing HP in your hand in your initial 5 cards for each turn.  So yeah, that's a reason why I wouldn't play it.  At least not as a strat.  If I happened to get it due to some Swindler shenanigans like eHalcyon mentioned, sure, I'd play it.
Nah, the dilution is not really a problem. I think the thing really is, there's usually some other better terminal silver. As in... a terminal silver. Actually, it's a little better than some of the worse ones (duchess and navigator for sure, but also something like chancellor).

So I'll ask you the same thing... if it is so reasonable, how often have you played it, WW?  With all due respect, I'm guessing not much.

Not trying to be flippant or sassy.  Just honestly curious.  If it is a thing, then cool.  However, I haven't yet seen anyone posting a log or a game report where they are like "HP+NB was the key strat here.  It is a thing."  The responses from you and ftl are the first rumblings I've ever heard of it as a thing.
I haven't played it a lot, no. In fact, I haven't played it ever. Which is totally irrelevant to how strong it is. The two cards don't come up for often, and there's often something better. But I mean, seriously, I've had it come up 7 times. 7. I think 2-3 of them I should have played it but did not. I miss stuff. It's not like something is good because I play it, or bad because I don't. I'm not saying it's great.
I ask you paddyodoors, since this is something you ACTUALLY CLAIMED: How the heck is the Silver/Gold actually diluting your deck as in making it worse??? (Hint: it isn't).

1. More nested quotes ftw.  Thanks for not breaking the chain.  For serious.  I'm not breaking the chain.

2. Remember I said that I think it isn't so good.  (See the fourth quote up in the nest from here).  I never outright claimed some definitve knowledge that it isn't good, only that I had the non-certain line of reasoning in my mind which concluded that is isn't good.  I took a position, defended it with my line of reasoning.  Little Dominion peons like me get things wrong a lot, if indeed wrong I am.  Dog bites man, where's the news?

3. If the key to HP+X is getting provinces, and in order to do that you need to either: be dealt enough to buy the Province outright or an HP chain resulting in the play of X and/or $8 in hand, then having more money in your deck seems to me to only be spreading out your HPs, making the probability that you draw an HP in each starting hand lower.  'Course the flipside of this coin is the fact that this probability is made lower by the fact that you have more money, which is the goal of HP+X in the first place... getting the money to buy the prov.

But if the money doesn't hurt, then why does the HP+X article assert that you should really only be buying 1-3 Silvers and no more?  And only 1 Gold?  Well, nevermind, I understand the Gold.  Another HP is preferable to a Gold, since the Gold will be found by the digging of the HPs.  But why a limit on Silver if it is supposedly good?  And that leads me to my final point...
It's wrong. Or at least, if you read it to mean that nothing is preferably to silver, that's probably wrong. In most cases. That's why it says that.

Quote
4. Like i'm not some brilliant independent thinker, man.  Nor have I ever claimed to be.  I don't pose as a great Dominion-player.  I have thoughts, share them, generally include caveats, and get it wrong.  Probably a decent short-story version of my life, actually.  My point: Guys like me, we read something that some bigwig wrote in an article on the blog and think it's Gospel truth.  You tell me that I should't have more than 3 Silvers, fine -- 3 Silver limit it is.  NB gains you Silvers.  Must be bad, right guys?  I don't know, so let me throw it out there, argue my thought based on principles that I am sure exist.  So apparently the bigwigs say that I'm wrong, that more Silvers in a HP+X deck are nothing but good.  Guess I'm wrong then.  Don't know how to now reconcile the two seemingly contradictory thoughts about it, but rhetorical questions that end posts responding to me on the subject are pretty helpful.  But does anyone really owe me any sort of help? (Hint: they don't.)

I doubt I've ever had one truly new or innovative thought about this game -- it is mostly just leeching off of others that I've gotten to be where I am today.  Now, I'm sure you're thinking "man, you can't be like that, you've gotta think for yourself and draw your own conclusions and be creative or you'll never be great."  And you're right.  I see that, too, especially the conclusion.

I probably should take extra sips of chill-juice before writing responses, but it just kinda had to flow.  Everyone: if my text-wall above doesn't agree with you, feel free to disregard.  Dog bites man.

Oh, and Paul -- thanks for letting me know, man.  That did help put it into relief for me. ;D
Okay, yeah, you can't just read something and be like 'well, ok'. You need to think for yourself. I mean, if I troll everyone by posting something about how Navigator is really misunderstood, but really it's this power $4, are you really going to believe that? You shouldn't! So, I'm not sure where you read that, heck maybe even I wrote it, but I don't think so. Also, the hard number of 3 is going to very rarely be a hard-and-fast rule. One might be. Two, maybe occasionally. 3? 4? 5? 7? Doubt it. 43? Yes. ;) But I mean, you definitely should not be like 'oh-my-gosh-oh-my-gosh-oh-my-gosh, I only have two silvers, I need another one' and then you buy your third and be 'man, I do NOT want any more of those'. Changes are not really so abrupt. Especially in what's basically a BM strategy.
Also, as for the specific case, as may be. There's a big difference between 'you only need two or three' and 'DO NOT BUY MORE THAN 3' The former is saying 3 is enough to have you good to go, you don't need more than that. It is NOT saying that more than that hurt you, or even that they don't help you. Probably it's saying their benefit is marginal. Furthermore, stealing their silver is better than just buying your own, and stealing their gold is AMAZING.

popsofctown

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Re: Noble Brigand Grabbing Silver instead of Gold
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2012, 05:44:39 pm »
+3

I'd believe Navigator was a power 4 if WW said it was :(
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