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[Gansura]

Trying, likely unsuccessfully, to move speculation of the two cards we know will be in the new set into this forum.

Some thoughts on ruins: We know the theme involves upgrading. Ruins sound to me like destroyed buildings or lands. The single-type victory cards have always been variations on buildings or lands. So, perhaps:

Ruins
Type: Victory
Cost: $0
0 VP
-----------
When you buy a victory card, trash this from your hand.

This lets you "upgrade" your ruins into a better victory card, but still clogs your deck and interacts with victory card effects. I assume, if a card similar to this one is in the deck, there will be an attack card along the lines of "trash a victory card from your hand or reveal a hand with no victory cards. If you do trash a victory card, gain a victory card that costs less."

Some thoughts on shelters: Because these could replace estates, I'm going to assume they won't significantly alter the standard opening too much (as in, we will still have $2,3,4, or 5 to buy with and no actions to play). That would make shelter a victory card as well. Or, if it were to be a victory-action card, it could be an action that is useless at the beginning of the game, but that gets more powerful as the game progresses. For a card that you start with, though, I cannot imagine it ever gets too powerful. With the "trash" theme in this set, my bet is on a dual-type victory-action card that interacts with the trash pile (and has a +action at the top so that it doesn't become a terminal action). At the beginning of the game, it functions is no differently than an estate but as cards get trashed, it starts to do "something." The question, then, is do you trash these early to get your deck moving quickly or hold on to them until the trash pile fills up. Perhaps:

Shelter
Type: Victory-Action
Cost: $2
1 VP
+1 Action
You may gain a victory card from the trash pile.

[qmech]

Duke is not a building.  Nor is Silk Road.

Ruins should probably be "you may", which makes it better and keep people honest.  Your proposed attack sounds plausible.

Shelter doesn't feel very thematic: it feels like it should offer you some sort or protection, rather than compensation for loss.  "Shelter" is also quite a weak name that wouldn't fit a strong action like gaining a Province.

[eHalcyon]

Duke is not a building.  Nor is Silk Road.

Ruins should probably be "you may", which makes it better and keep people honest.  Your proposed attack sounds plausible.

Shelter doesn't feel very thematic: it feels like it should offer you some sort or protection, rather than compensation for loss.  "Shelter" is also quite a weak name that wouldn't fit a strong action like gaining a Province.

True about Duke, but it is tied to Duchy thematically.  Harem and Nobles don't really tie into anything though.

Most VP are not buildings; they are locations.  Estate, Duchy, Province, Colony, Gardens, Great Hall, Island, Vineyard, Fairgrounds, Tunnel, Farmland and yes Silk Road are all locations.

Ruins and Shelters are locations too... Thematically, I think Shelter is closer to Shanty Town than Estate, but I still expect it to be a VP card of some sort.  I'm just imagining this "shelter" as a tent or hovel.

[Gansura]

Most VP are not buildings; they are locations.  Estate, Duchy, Province, Colony, Gardens, Great Hall, Island, Vineyard, Fairgrounds, Tunnel, Farmland and yes Silk Road are all locations.

I did say buildings or lands. We're getting into semantics, but what I mean by that are rather than locations, which can likewise apply to any number of cards such as Village or Wharf, I have always thought of victory cards as lands on which a dominion or kingdom would be built. All those you listed that are pure victory cards (except duke) are types of land and, in the case of the standard victory cards, lands of a particular size over which some person has dominion. My thematic assessment of Ruins is that that ruins are what results when your dominion falls into disrepair. So, a victory card, as it is what remains of a victory card that has been destroyed, and so doesn't help you but can be upgraded/rebuilt.

On Shelter: Perhaps some better options for a shelter would be:

Shelter
Type: Victory-Reaction
Cost: $2
1 VP
--------
When you would trash a card, you may trash this instead.
 
or

Shelter
Type: Victory-Action
Cost: $2
1 VP
You may trash this from your hand. If you do, you may gain a card costing up to 3 from the trash.

The first of these is a pretty weak reaction early in the game, as it should be for something replacing Estates, and against stronger trashing attacks like Saboteur, it is a one-shot moat. My guess is that the price is still right - a Moat costs 2 and an Estate costs 2; this can be either but only one of them. If you choose moat, you lose the victory point. If you choose estate, you lose the ability to block the attack.

The second of these almost guarantees that games with Shelters/Dark Ages games have something in the trash pile. The problem with this formulation, though, is that turn order could make a difference if there are other trashers on the board. The Shelter's trashing ability itself should not cause problems (playing one trashes a shelter, player 2 has the option of trashing a shelter to pick up a shelter, which is the same as not trashing it in the first place). But it does cause problems if player one picks up a chapel and trashes a copper or silver, player two will be able to trash a Shelter for some (minimal) benefit that player one is unable to get the first time they get a shelter after the first reshuffle. That said, I would be surprised if the turn order benefit is even on par with the benefit to the first player to get a militia after the first reshuffle.

[eHalcyon]

Gansura, my post was agreeing with you on the thematics.

If Shelter has any sort of mechanic (and I expect it will), it'll probably be worth 0 VP.  Otherwise, it is strictly better than Estate... then again, Shelter replaces Estate, so maybe that doesn't matter at all.  I'm going to guess that you can't buy them though -- they'll just be in your starting deck and that's it.

[Gansura]

Gansura, my post was agreeing with you on the thematics.

 

If Shelter has any sort of mechanic (and I expect it will), it'll probably be worth 0 VP.  Otherwise, it is strictly better than Estate... then again, Shelter replaces Estate, so maybe that doesn't matter at all.  I'm going to guess that you can't buy them though -- they'll just be in your starting deck and that's it.

As some mentioned in the other thread, cards-that-care-about-the-trash are only useful if there are trashers or cards in the trash. We know that Shelters replace Estates. My guess is that this is done in order to resolve that problem. This means there would be some trashing guaranteed in every game that uses shelters. I'm thinking the reason we replace estates with shelters is like the reason we put potions into play. We put in potions to guarantee cards with potions in their cost can be played. We replace estates with shelters to that guarantee some trashing so the other cards have some value.

The other way to make it so that cards-that-care-about-the-trash are guaranteed to have some use is to start the game with some cards in the trash. This could be as simple as adding a set-up rule such as "place x number of coppers in the trash." Or (because we only know of the existence two cards so far, so why not make this all about them) what if the pile of ruins begins in the trash?

EDIT:

The attack I suggested to work with my speculation about ruins is not original. See here in the secret history of Prosperity:

$4; Attack3: "Each other player reveals cards from the top of his deck until revealing a Duchy, Province, or Colony. He trashes it and gains a cheaper Victory card he chooses, and an Estate. He discards the other revealed cards." This was an attempt at an attack that only hit VP cards. Since that would be useless early on, it compensates by passing out Estates then. It doesn't just trash VP cards, it grinds them up into smaller cards. This was really perfect for Prosperity; I needed attacks that didn't make Colony look unattainable, and this makes you actually want to hold out until you can buy two Colonies in a turn if possible. As you know it did not survive. In the end, no-one liked it. That kills 'em every time. It seems kind of worth doing an attack that only hits VP cards someday, but it probably won't have space to do something else in the bargain, and I already know that no-one will be pleased to see it.

I wonder if this card is making a return and giving out ruins instead of estates.

[play2draw]

I think the best speculative version of Shelter was in the Dark Ages thread, where Shelter is a reaction card that you trash to prevent being attacked. I think a flaw in Dominion is how much importance is placed in getting a "first strike" with attack cards. It seems like an interesting way to minimize that.

[Rhombus]

If Shelters are trashers in any way (self trashers, one-time trashers, trashing other cards, etc), they'll make cards like Bishop and Scrying Pool even more deadly.

[Serialian]

I have to agree with the logic that it is a lousy vanilla trasher to make certain that games that count trash actually have the ability to have things in the trash.

I imagine that it would be something rather simple

0 - Shelter- Action

Trash one card from your hand

Overall it's pretty lousy but might be worth it with villages, BM or if there's some strategy for having stuff in the trash. My question is if you have a choice in deck composition or if it's pre-set for everyone(2 shelters, 1 shelter and 1 estate or the player's choice)

If that is the case, I could see some sub-set of players wanting to ALWAYS play with shelters just like some won't play without an attack defense card or trasher just because of curse fear.


I wouldn't be surprised if a stack of them were added if they were present at all. If it is a solution to the 'no trashers' I imagine that some cards would have an icon that made shelters available. That makes more sense than the random draw that determines colonies/plats.


As for ruins, my favorite is the speculation I saw on the geek where they cancel out one of your VP cards. You certain you want to trash that estate and make the ruin cancel out your duchy? Chapel decks just got more dangerous.