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[Galzria]

By the way, I use "certain" because I either believe something, or I don't. I don't hedge. Can I be convinced I'm wrong? Sure. I listen, and will agree/disagree as I see fit.

Yes, if I'm willing to change my mind I'm not "certain". But until I change it, I will defend the things I believe, and not sit there going "well, maaaybe". That's just the way I am, and almost certainly not likely to change.

[Dsell]

Eevee being a professional poker player does seem a little odd to me. Like I feel like he could be just playing us really hard. Buuuut I'm still not really convinced. I think Robz is making him seem a little more green than he has actually been acting. To me, he seems new, a little overwhelmed, and a fun, lighthearted guy. We can't all be intense. I kinda feel some of the same things I think he is, especially with this deadline looming. I really don't think he is acting like a 12 year old though.

[Robz888]

Me: "Pineapple tastes good."

Dsell: "You know, I see what Robz is saying, but I don't think he's being entirely fair to Pineapple. This is just like what he said about Pineapple in that other game. Remember, when he was mafia? Now he claims to like Pineapple but he was very quiet on the subject initially, and everything he has done has only made me more convinced he doesn't actually like Pineapple."

[Robz888]

Galzria: "Pineapple is CERTAINLY good." Posts 1,000 more times about Pineapple

Voltgloss: "Robz, could you submit a research paper on your thoughts about Pineapple? I'm waiting. Thank you."

[Galzria]

Well, UNVOTE. Lynch who you like tomorrow. I'll be gone most of the day, so likely won't be around to vote. I stand by J being Mafia, but since he's going to claim, he won't get lynched. No reason to keep my vote there.

See you all (or not, as there is good reason for Mafia to kill me) day 2. But I may change how I play to be more like def. I've got more fun things to do than get worked up over a Mafia game. So I'll give my thoughts here and there, but that's it. I'll vote when you're actually targeting a likely Mafia, otherwise probably not.

[Dsell]

Me: "Pineapple tastes good."

Dsell: "You know, I see what Robz is saying, but I don't think he's being entirely fair to Pineapple. This is just like what he said about Pineapple in that other game. Remember, when he was mafia? Now he claims to like Pineapple but he was very quiet on the subject initially, and everything he has done has only made me more convinced he doesn't actually like Pineapple."

I lol'd. Hey man. I'm just a townie over here trying to help out the town. I think you're mafia, and hey that's ok! Not like we chose our own roles. I'm using the pertinent info available to make the best decision I can.

[Dsell]

Personally, I'm surprised I haven't been getting flack for this.

I'm pretty interested in this, I've been enjoying following the other mafia games (well, just one of them now) though I've never played forum mafia before. The thing is, I spend a lot of time on the forum and it's been tough at times for me to even keep up with all the reading during really active times. So I can only imagine trying to keep up with other mafia games, my own mafia game, trying to formulate responses with lots of analysis, keeping up with, you know, Dominion strategy, and trying to play on isotropic. Oh yeah, and real life.

But I think I'm up for a challenge.

And yeah, Robz is insane.

Clearly I had already picked out my target.

[Insomniac]

With 13 Alive it takes 7 to lynch
Current Vote Counts
Robz888 (4) - Dsell, Captain_Frisk, Eevee, jotheonah
jotheonah (3) - yuma, michaeljb, Morgrim7
Eevee (2) - O, Robz

Not Voting (4) - def, eHalcyon, Voltgloss, Galzria,

Deadline: June 3, 2012, 11:59pm PDT

[eHalcyon]

Back.  Lots of activity today yesterday, wow.

People who I'd be glad to have on the Townie side:
Captain Frisk
Robz
michaeljb
Morgrim
Michaeljb

So, this leaves me a little confused.  I understand Robz and Captain Frisk, for the most part.  But what of the other two?  In your "suspicions" post you list Morgrim as medium suspicion and michaeljb as "unknown".  What makes them valuable as townies, if they are such?

Why is michaeljb in your good graces?  He hasn't been very memorable to me so far (I should go back and re-read some of these pages).  And (no offense meant to him here) Morgrim on there is especially confusing, what with the randomness fiasco early on (though you pulled a similar stunt, so...).  Is it how he managed to escape that bandwagon that impresses you?

I'd really like some reasons on these choices for "good townies".  For those you think would be harmful as townies, I think you explained the reasoning in an earlier post.  Please correct me if I'm wrong:

Dsell -- tendency to bandwagon?
Galzria -- makes statements with certainty when it is unlikely for him to have any certainty in this game (I have a post on this to follow); fairly persuasive in his posts but perhaps doesn't have the best judgement to utilize that influence.
Three townies from Mafia II -- well, they lost in the end.  Do note -- this is really just jotheonah and Voltglass, because Insomniac is the mod here, right?

Note: this is just my interpretation of O's rationale.



I'd also be interested in who you think would be the most dangerous Mafia, but that's probably harder to pinpoint.  Mafia can be dangerous by being very vocal and influencing day actions, but they can also be dangerous if they look innocent and go undetected.

[Dsell]

Ok I stayed up extra late waiting for eHalcyon's "to follow" post, but I'm turning in for the night. Back to check in in the morning and then I will participate in the afternoon.

[eHalcyon]

So, two points of interest from the earlier discussion (sorry for taking longer on this, Dsell).

Galzria's Certainty

Galzria was saying that he's certain Robz is a Townie.  He later says that it's because he doesn't hedge, but even then how can he be certain?  Given how sly he was in Mafia II, I can't imagine that he would exaggerate a day 1 town read on Robz as certainty.

These are the explanations I can come up with right now:

1. Galzria and Robz are both masons (or some similar role).  If this is the case, I don't see a reason why they shouldn't role claim, but I'm a newb. 

2. Galzria is Mafia and Robz is townie.  If Robz gets lynched, Galzria appears to be cleared.  Why would a Mafia member argue so vehemently against the lynching of a townie?  Well, it's a huge bonus if it means that Mafia member will be free of suspicion for the rest of the game.

3. Galzria and Robz are both Mafia.  If Robz doesn't get lynch, that's a win.  If Robz gets lynched, Galzria can argue that as a Mafia member there is no way that he would tie himself so closely to another Mafia member, and -- oops sorry -- that he just made a really bad read on Robz.

4. Galzria has some exotic role like a Cop that can act during the day.  That's a real role, right?




jotheonah's role

j basically says that he has a role and that he may role claim in the morning.  Even announcing that you have a role is unfortunate because it basically paints a big bullseye on your back for the Mafia.  I don't know if actually revealing the role would have any effect other than opening up the possibility of a counterclaim. 

And actually, I think this is a good reason for him to claim a specific role.  Is there any reason why someone with a role should reveal that fact without the actual role?  They're a Mafia target either way.  I can actually think of just ONE reason.  In that (unlikely!) case I think it is better for the town if I keep quiet on this one.

Nonetheless, I can see why j would do it.  He has little choice as he's about to die.  His role claim gives us insight based on how the players react.  Even if he's destined to be killed at night, sparing him from the lynch would give the town a better chance of catching scum.

But anyway, my question here is -- why would j claim a power role without specifying what that role is?  My ideas:

1. If there is a doctor in the game, he could be protected and given at least one night's chance to use his power effectively.  In that case, the Mafia has better chance of success if they pick a different target.  This only works if j's role is unknown.  On the other hand, if he claims Doctor, the Mafia can target him without much worry of being blocked.  Keeping his role secret is thus beneficial by giving the Mafia a more difficult decision to make.

2. I mentioned this above -- he might have a role that is best kept secret... I have one in mind but, since it is best kept secret, I won't reveal it here.

3. As suggested by Robz, this could be a last-ditch effort by a Mafia player.  j doesn't claim an actual role so he can have more time to figure out what is most beneficial to claim.  If the town acquits him without forcing him to claim an actual role, it might persuade an actual doctor or jailkeepr to protect him that night instead of an actual townie.  It might also cause an actual cop to investigate someone else on the assumption that he is town.





Can anyone add to either of these two lists?

[jotheonah]

I haven't played much mafia, but I thought the standard procedure was to make a soft claim first and only hard claim if asked. I've painted a target on my back either way.

But, if I claim and someone counterclaims, we've both painted targets on our backs

And as you said, certain roles still benefit from anonymity. And it might be that night 2, if I can survive it (hint hint), will provide me with evidence to prove what I say tomorrow.

So, I wanted to give you the option of protecting your power townie without completely exposing him.

[jotheonah]

Ok, just realized the counterclaim thing doesn't make sense.  It's this blind setup. It's unlikely, but not impossible, that there are two of my role. So a counterclaim could end up with a big town v. town fight and two mafia targets.

[Captain_Frisk]

C.F., with all due respect, can you please point me to where I indicated "Robz and I are so good, we're better people to have around"?

Not a problem - and the respect is appreciated!

Basically town, V and J are trying RIGHT NOW to slam the door on Robz, and if successful, you will have NEITHER of us day 2.

This is the quote that sent me over the edge.  You didn't explicitly justify it with a note of being experienced players - but I read this as trying to bully the town into either unvoting for Rob  you're coming to Robz's defense with threatening that you will be night killed if RobZ is lynched.  Naturally - if we do lynch town (which I suppose is the probable event), it is also likely that another town will be night killed - so we will lose 2 towns.  You're implying that the town is worse off if both of you are killed vs. some other pair of 2 towns. 

At this point - I am highly suspicious of you - and thus by extension making me feel better about leaving my vote on RobZ.

Finally - your rage-unvote

Well, UNVOTE. Lynch who you like tomorrow. I'll be gone most of the day, so likely won't be around to vote. I stand by J being Mafia, but since he's going to claim, he won't get lynched. No reason to keep my vote there.

See you all (or not, as there is good reason for Mafia to kill me) day 2. But I may change how I play to be more like def. I've got more fun things to do than get worked up over a Mafia game. So I'll give my thoughts here and there, but that's it. I'll vote when you're actually targeting a likely Mafia, otherwise probably not.

If you believe that J is mafia, WHY ON EARTH would you unvote?  J was up to 4 votes, and unvoting only allows him to possibly unclaim because it is no longer necessary to save his bacon.  If you were shifting your vote to someone else who you believe is Mafia because you think J can't be lynched... then OK.  But with a strong believe that J is mafia, unvoting seems strictly worse - and equivalent to:

Screw you guys, I'm going home.

[jotheonah]

Part of my post above didn't post, so I'll say it again. Only Robz has asked me to full claim, and given that he could well be mafia, I don't think it's ridiculous to wait for at least one more townie to make the request.

[Captain_Frisk]

I haven't played much mafia, but I thought the standard procedure was to make a soft claim first and only hard claim if asked. I've painted a target on my back either way.

But, if I claim and someone counterclaims, we've both painted targets on our backs

And as you said, certain roles still benefit from anonymity. And it might be that night 2, if I can survive it (hint hint), will provide me with evidence to prove what I say tomorrow.

So, I wanted to give you the option of protecting your power townie without completely exposing him.

And here we go Galzria - backing off the role claim because you unvoted.  I'm suspicious of both camps - I was suspicious of jotheonah - to the point of even voting for him earlier in post #332 - although look at who else i was suspicious of then?

If I had to vote, it would be for either jotheonah or Galzria - as I assume any time we start hammering someone, the mafia is going to want to have a mix of guys in... some early, some late - as someone pointed out, it would be pretty bad for the votes to be 5,6,7.  I've already un-voted Morgrim, so that leaves jotheonah and Galzria.

That said, I'm having a tough time buying a Mafia Triangle of RobZ, Galzria + Jotheonah.

[Captain_Frisk]

Part of my post above didn't post, so I'll say it again. Only Robz has asked me to full claim, and given that he could well be mafia, I don't think it's ridiculous to wait for at least one more townie to make the request.

Jotheonah - please do not take my above post as a request to claim.  I was only using it to point out why I don't understand G's behavior.

[jotheonah]

Insomniac, can we try to kerjigger it so the deadline is not on a Sunday/weekend next time? It seems to be less than ideal.

[Voltgloss]

My head is spinning.  Am I getting this sequence of events right?

- Galzria leads a charge against jotheonah.
- When jotheonah votes for the other then-possible lynch (Robz), Galzria tears into him and the person who most recently voted for that same lynch (me).
- Then I explain my gambit and switch my vote to jotheonah based on his jumping on the Robz train.
- Then jotheonah claims he is going to claim.
- Then Galzria unvotes, backing down from the charge he's been leading for most of the day - BEFORE jotheonah has actually claimed.
- Now jotheonah isn't claiming.

Does anyone else find this troubling?  I don't even know what to do about it at this point.  I mean, I could revote jotheonah, but if he gets lynched and flips town then all of us who voted for him are on the hook for suspicion EXCEPT for the one person who led the charge in the first place!  I really don't know at this point.

O, I'd like to know how you find my arguments "inane."  Saying someone's arguments are inane without explaining why is, well, inane.  If I'm on the wrong track, tell me how, help me to get away from such inane thoughts.

Robz, I appreciate your further response.  As I understand it, you're saying that your giving insufficient responses to Dsell (which is the big thing that aroused my suspicions) is because you were purposefully trying to see what he'd do.  Well, now you know:  if you give him insufficient responses he's going to conclude you are Mafia.  Really, I can't see that as being

I'm going to have to look again at this Eevee thing.  The gist of Robz's suspicion seems to be that Eevee mixes humor, substance, and non-substance in a "mafia middle-ground" way (a concept Robz created), and that Eevee is downplaying his abilities.  The problem I have is that this seems to be suspicion based solely on a person's RL posting style, rather than anything concrete that would point to them being Mafia.  It feels like the Morgrim attack that Robz guided in M-II.  (I'm not saying Robz is Mafia because he's targeting Eevee.  I'm saying Robz's attack on Eevee, if Robz is Town, feels like my attack on Morgrim in M-II.)

[Voltgloss]

Left a sentence dangling in my next-to-last paragraph above.  Fixed below.

"Well, now you know:  if you give him insufficient responses he's going to conclude you are Mafia.  Really, I can't see that as being a cause for suspicion.  Aren't we supposed to be looking for people whose posts are 'off' and accusing them to see what they do?  Your posts were off, you were accused, your (initial) responses were off.  Dsell's just doing his job as a good Townie."

[jotheonah]

So you're not going to reply to my question about why YOU jumping on the Robz train is town and MY jumping on the Robz train is scum? Cause I don't follow.

And I daresay my role will be public knowledge by Day 2 at the latest. I think town could obtain an advantage by delaying the reveal until then. But I leave it up to you all.

[Voltgloss]

So you're not going to reply to my question about why YOU jumping on the Robz train is town and MY jumping on the Robz train is scum? Cause I don't follow.

Because moving the train to vote 4 is less dangerous than moving it to vote 5.  Also, I explained in detail my reasons for voting Robz.  You didn't.

[jotheonah]

In a game with 3 mafia, I think you're greatly overstating the difference between vote 4 and vote 5. And both votes (as well as #6 and #7) are required for the town to lynch someone.

Prior to your vote, I had been called out for an unhelpful vote. I had announced my intention to join an existing bandwagon to be helpful to the town. I had asked clarifying questions to get a better read on the currently existing Eevee bandwagon. After hearing those responses, and after seeing you, a trustworthy townie in my book ATM, agreed with the analysis on Robz, I felt I had sufficient cause for a vote.

Robz, I think you're grasping at straws.  The mafia don't need to lynch anyone today. They can live with a no-lynch. You're saying they're placing the first 3 votes on you? You are following your established scum pattern of always accusing your accusers. And I'm not buying it.

Unvote

Vote: Robz888

I'm voting precisely because I don't believe all of Robz's accusers to be mafia, and I'm finding their case against him much more compelling then either G's case against me or Robz's case against Eevee.

Yes, I chose not to compose a third essay rehashing the points you and Dsell had already made. Instead, I highlighted a few of my specific tells and articulated that Robz struck me as the best option for a town lynch (i.e. the most likely mafia).  I don't see what's suspicious in this outside the context of you ALREADY being suspicious of me and looking for a reason to confirm it.

[Galzria]

Sorry V. Didn't mean to confuse. If it'll make you feel better, VOTE: JOTHEONAH. I only unvoted because, well, you did, and because the case has been made in this game and many others that a claim doesn't get lynched. There didn't seem to be a good reason to keep it there. I still believe my case though.

@C.F.:

I really don't care if people (you, O, anyone else) are suspicious of me. If I'm not having fun (ie. feeling accused of something I would never do, in real life or on a forum), then I will disengage. I will still participate - I won't leave my team without my support, but I'll join in only when I have something to say.

The quote you used was hardly meant as bullying. I understand noone wants to die day/night 1. Well, that extends to me too. I generally WANT to play, and felt (still do) if Robz were lynched, then revealed town, I would be the most likely night target. Since I would rather that not happen, I felt the need to protect Robz.

I hope you can see that it wasn't meant to be insulting.

As for my unvote, my actions were explained above.

[Voltgloss]

Thank you, Galzria.

jotheonah, on top of my previous reasons, the promised roleclaim hasn't materialized.  Instead, you've delayed more (which Robz already flagged as suspicious the first time you delayed).  You've had a chance to give your say, and I simply don't find it a compelling response.

VOTE: jotheonah