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[greatexpectations]

Does a card that we know nothing about other than the name and that sometimes it will replace Estates at the beginning of the game sound like Island? No. Not at all.

and why not?  we don't know much of anything about these cards.  rhombus's baseless speculation is just about as good as anyone else's out there. 

keep it friendly folks.

[WanderingWinder]

Does Shelter sound a little bit like Island to anyone else?  Imagine an Island that costs 3 that can't be set aside with another card, but only on it's own.

Does a card that we know nothing about other than the name and that sometimes it will replace Estates at the beginning of the game sound like Island? No. Not at all.

We also know the name. And I assume that's the basis for comparison. I don't know whether Shelter as a name really sounds like an island to me, but I can see the logic. You use island to shelter cards out of your deck (on an island).

[Ferrouswheel]

I think Shelter will be a attack/victory card.

Shelter

0 VP
-----
Each other player gaines 10 curses.

Just to cement first player advantage.

[Grujah]

And than, as player 1, you open 5/2. 

[Jorbles]

You're quietly conquering people, minding your own business, when suddenly there's a plague, or barbarians, or everyone's illiterate, and it's all you can do to cling to some wreckage as the storm passes through. Still, you are sure that, as always, you will triumph over this adversity, or at least do slightly better than everyone else.

Though the flavour text for an expansion can be misleading, this seems to be implying that we may be seeing a lot more games with scores in the single digits or negative scores. We can all get that Golf badge we've always wanted.

[eHalcyon]

BUM
$4
Action - reaction

If you play this, you gain $1 this turn for every 3 cards in the trash.
When another player trashes a card, you may reveal this card. If you do, pick up that card from the trash.

I've thought about that reaction before.  If you would gain the actual trashed card, you run into the issue of who has priority if multiple players reveal.  Though I suppose you could just prioritize by turn order or something.  An alternative is to have you gain a copy from the Supply instead.

[studakris]

I don't normally get into card speculation or creation, but the idea of a Beggar has me thinking. Here's my attempt:

Beggar
$5
Attack
Each other player must give you the least valuable treasure in their hand or reveal a hand with no treasures.

Basically, you don't give a beggar globs of money, just some spare change. As a beggar, you might only get coppers, or could get lucky with Gold. Although near useless in a two-player game, it could be killer in a multiplayer game.

[GendoIkari]

I don't normally get into card speculation or creation, but the idea of a Beggar has me thinking. Here's my attempt:

Beggar
$5
Attack
Each other player must give you the least valuable treasure in their hand or reveal a hand with no treasures.

Basically, you don't give a beggar globs of money, just some spare change. As a beggar, you might only get coppers, or could get lucky with Gold. Although near useless in a two-player game, it could be killer in a multiplayer game.

It should probably just say "passes you a Treasure card". Leave it up to the opponents to give you the worst one, which they always should expect in extreme rare cases. You don't want to use the word "valuable" in regards to Treasure, as how "valuable" the card is is a matter of subjection.

[Willvon]

I'm thinking more on the lines of Feast, but with specific upgrade paths, i.e. buy A from supply, trash it to get B* (not in supply), trash that to get C* (not in supply).  The description did mention many cards that "you can only get via specific other cards".

My speculation along these lines: of the 35 kingdom cards, only 25 are regular cards coming with randomizers. This would fit with usual numbers. Now 10 of these 25 cards are upgradable, and whenever one of this card is in the supply, the upgraded version comes also in the supply, but can be gained only in a very specific way.

The description says that there are 500 cards in this expansion, including 35 new Kingdom cards to Dominion.  If as many as 10 (admittedly a high estimate) of these are victory cards, then the total number of Kingdom cards with randomizers would be 405.  Since Ruins has the sound of a Curse-like card, we could easily estimate at least 50 of them for 6 players.  That makes the total 455.  Since Shelters replace starting Estates, in a 6 player game the most you would need would be 18.  That leaves at least 25 cards unaccounted for. 

Those last 25 cards are probably the "cards you can only get via specific other cards".  So rather than some of the Kingdom cards being the cards that you upgrade into, would it be more likely that these 25 cards would be the ones you upgrade into? 

[jsh357]

I'm looking forward to the spoiler posts.  Hopefully Donald can finish them before the cat gets let out of the bag this year.  It was great previewing them 2 at a time for Hinterlands.

[Davio]

I'm looking forward to the spoiler posts.  Hopefully Donald can finish them before the cat gets let out of the bag this year.  It was great previewing them 2 at a time for Hinterlands.

Seconded.

I love being wrong.

Jack? Meeeh, it does 3 things poorly, you'd rather do 1 thing well...

[Tables]

Not to break up the interesting discussion, but, uh, the first post here (which I made) has 13 thumbs (at time of writing). I mean, 13 thumbs, for basically standing up in a group of people and shouting 'first!'. I'm not complaining that much, since I like the sudden jump in respect, but... it's basically reverse shooting the messenger, you know.

And now back on topic with discussion: Willvon's numbers make a lot of sense, but those estimates are pretty precise, and not really very certain. If there's a supply pile for Shelters, then there could be only 13 or so unique-gain cards, or perhaps there's a lot fewer Ruins/Shelters and there could be many more. But either way I think his estimate is pretty good.

And I loved the flavour text, as always. It does seem to suggest things are going to become much 'harder', as in perhaps more attacks, slower strategies and the like... perhaps, more cheap cards to compensate?

[werothegreat]

And I loved the flavour text, as always. It does seem to suggest things are going to become much 'harder', as in perhaps more attacks, slower strategies and the like... perhaps, more cheap cards to compensate?

I think I'd be inclined to assume that Dark Ages, like Seaside, is going to favor cheaper cards.  It's interesting when we have discussions about themes of the expansions, everyone always mentions that Prosperity focuses on expensive cards, but only ever mention Durations for Seaside.  Seaside is the only set without a card costing more than $5, and has the most $2 cards of any set.  I'd say cheap cards are at least a secondary theme for Seaside.   But if Dark Ages doesn't have the same (or more of an) emphasis on cheapness, I won't do something I'll cliche-ly threaten to do.

EDIT: Seaside also has the most Attacks of any set, so there's that, as well, which I also believe Dark Ages will have in common with it.

[WanderingWinder]

Not to break up the interesting discussion, but, uh, the first post here (which I made) has 13 thumbs (at time of writing). I mean, 13 thumbs, for basically standing up in a group of people and shouting 'first!'. I'm not complaining that much, since I like the sudden jump in respect, but... it's basically reverse shooting the messenger, you know.

We like information. We like being told new information, especially about new expansions. We also know that it will show up at the bottom of the main forum thing as the top-upvoted thing, which will make people look at it, which will produce more discussion. Win win win win.

[paddyodoors]

Not to break up the interesting discussion, but, uh, the first post here (which I made) has 13 thumbs (at time of writing). I mean, 13 thumbs, for basically standing up in a group of people and shouting 'first!'. I'm not complaining that much, since I like the sudden jump in respect, but... it's basically reverse shooting the messenger, you know.

And now back on topic with discussion: Willvon's numbers make a lot of sense, but those estimates are pretty precise, and not really very certain. If there's a supply pile for Shelters, then there could be only 13 or so unique-gain cards, or perhaps there's a lot fewer Ruins/Shelters and there could be many more. But either way I think his estimate is pretty good.

And I loved the flavour text, as always. It does seem to suggest things are going to become much 'harder', as in perhaps more attacks, slower strategies and the like... perhaps, more cheap cards to compensate?

FYI, I respect you for making this post.

We tried shooting the messenger.  Didn't work out very well (kept running out of messengers).  So respecting the hell of of them was our second plan.  Seems to be working well so far.  I sympathize with your predicament, though... if it makes you feel any better, I suspected that you'd feel that way, so even back then I decided not to respect you.  Happy? 

On topic with your third point: I also really like the flavor text, but for different reasons.  The style is what gets me.  I love it.  Very very good stuff, the dry humor is.

[LastFootnote]

I think I'd be inclined to assume that Dark Ages, like Seaside, is going to favor cheaper cards.  It's interesting when we have discussions about themes of the expansions, everyone always mentions that Prosperity focuses on expensive cards, but only ever mention Durations for Seaside.  Seaside is the only set without a card costing more than $5, and has the most $2 cards of any set.  I'd say cheap cards are at least a secondary theme for Seaside.   But if Dark Ages doesn't have the same (or more of an) emphasis on cheapness, I won't do something I'll cliche-ly threaten to do.

I'm not going to try to find the link right now, but I believe Donald said at some point that he put more cheap cards in Seaside (specifically $2 cards) because Prosperity was going to have so many expensive cards (and no $2 cards).

EDIT: Seaside also has the most Attacks of any set, so there's that, as well, which I also believe Dark Ages will have in common with it.

The base set also has 5 Attack cards.

EDIT: It turns out he said it in the Secret History of Prosperity.

[Ferrouswheel]

And than, as player 1, you open 5/2. 

That's why there is still chance to the game.

[Schneau]

I think I'd be inclined to assume that Dark Ages, like Seaside, is going to favor cheaper cards.  It's interesting when we have discussions about themes of the expansions, everyone always mentions that Prosperity focuses on expensive cards, but only ever mention Durations for Seaside.  Seaside is the only set without a card costing more than $5, and has the most $2 cards of any set.  I'd say cheap cards are at least a secondary theme for Seaside.   But if Dark Ages doesn't have the same (or more of an) emphasis on cheapness, I won't do something I'll cliche-ly threaten to do.

It's interesting to look at the mean cost per card across the expansions. If my numbers are correct, I get:

Base: 3.96 ($/card)
Intrigue: 3.96
Seaside: 3.73
Alchemy: 2.66 + 0.83P
Prosperity: 5.12
Cornucopia: 4.15
Hinterlands: 4.12
Promo: 4.20
Total: 4.10 + 0.06P

As expected, Prosperity is the highest, but Cornucopia and Hinterlands are clearly more expensive in general than the first three. And as stated, Seaside has the cheapest mean card cost. If you say that Potion in a cost is worth about 2.5, Alchemy is easily the second most expensive expansion at around 4.74. Note that this calculation counts Peddler at $8 and only includes Kingdom cards - no regular Treasures, Victories, or Curses.

[jotheonah]

Re: The upgrade actions/ cards you can only gain via other cards.

Is anyone else thinking of the hero cards in Thunderstone? Perhaps including the fact that there will be fewer than 10 of the level 2 and level 3 versions, so it will be a race to upgrade?

If so, a lot of people will hate those cards.

[eHalcyon]

Re: The upgrade actions/ cards you can only gain via other cards.

Is anyone else thinking of the hero cards in Thunderstone? Perhaps including the fact that there will be fewer than 10 of the level 2 and level 3 versions, so it will be a race to upgrade?

If so, a lot of people will hate those cards.

I was thinking that there would be MORE of the special upgraded cards than the upgrade-able cards in the Supply, so that you could make a "gain from trash" card not only worth it but necessary, in order to get more of the good stuff.  So for example:

The supply includes Twig (10 copies, standard).  There are two special cards, Torch and Bonfire.

Twig - $2
+1 Card, +$1.  You may trash this to gain a Torch.  You may reveal and trash a second Twig to gain Bonfire instead.

Torch - $3* (not in supply)
+2 Cards, +$1.  You may trash this and a Twig or a second Torch from your hand to gain a Bonfire.

Bonfire - $5* (not in supply)
+2 Cards, +$1, +1 Action.  Choose one: gain a Twig or Torch from the trash; or trash any number of Twigs and Torches from your hand for $2 each.



And of course, a separate trash-gainer would help you recover those precious Twigs more quickly.

Edit: By the way, my use of twigs stems (semi-pun semi-intended) from the text:

You beg twigs from the villagers, and they beg them back, but no-one really seems to come out ahead.

[Voltgloss]

We also know that it will show up at the bottom of the main forum thing as the top-upvoted thing, which will make people look at it, which will produce more discussion. Win win win win.

We're Pearl Divers?

[play2draw]

My prediction: There will be a card costing $1.

[greatexpectations]

My prediction: There will not be a card costing $1.

[Morgrim7]

My prediction: the average cost will stay about the same as Intrigue and Base, if no other currency is created. If not, I agree with play2draw. I think there will be a card costing $1. If so, God help us all. Potions, and now this!?! Complicated indeed.
Very much can be assumed by knowing the title. Dark Ages implies some cheap cards... possibly something $1? No one knows for sure…except Donald…I envy him…cannot wait for this expansion…

[clb]

I sure hope nothing costs $1! That would make a number of potential ways for trashing estates/coppers more risky or at least not as helpful when those cards are in the supply. I recall, someone, in the commentaries Donald wrote about the other expansions that he deliberately said "gain a card costing exactly $1 more" so that you wouldn't end up drawing curses when you trash coppers or something to that extent.

Edit: it would be nice if I could spell.