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Author Topic: How to play these cards?  (Read 7875 times)

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manny calavera

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How to play these cards?
« on: July 11, 2011, 07:34:12 am »
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There are some cards in Dominion that i really don't know how to play!
here there are the most difficult for me to play:

-Minion (it seems to me useless and expensive)
-Shanty town

In wich kind of deck i can use them?
Wich is the best strategy with these cards and their useful?
Thank you again!
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DStu

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2011, 07:44:24 am »
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@Minion:
http://dominionstrategy.com/2010/11/22/intrigue-minion/
http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/04/08/the-five-best-5-attacks/

@Shanty Town:
I think it's one of the worst Villages. If you plan to get an Actionchain ( http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/03/07/actionscards/) and there is no other village but good carddraw (e.g Torturer), you take the Shanty Town. Other than this, I don't really see the value of the potential +2Cards. Either you don't have many actions, then you don't want a Village, or you have them, then you won't get the +2Cards. But I don't see any strategy that reliably can make use of the +2Cards of the Shanty Town.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2011, 08:14:05 am »
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Shanty town is good for Dominion puzzles that allow you to have perfect shuffle luck. Otherwise, yeah, it's just a mediocre village.
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cherdano

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2011, 08:24:03 am »
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@Shanty Town:
I think it's one of the worst Villages. If you plan to get an Actionchain ( http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/03/07/actionscards/) and there is no other village but good carddraw (e.g Torturer), you take the Shanty Town. Other than this, I don't really see the value of the potential +2Cards. Either you don't have many actions, then you don't want a Village, or you have them, then you won't get the +2Cards. But I don't see any strategy that reliably can make use of the +2Cards of the Shanty Town.
It's maybe worth pointing out that it works very well with Library.
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Superdad

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2011, 08:32:10 am »
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/edit ROFL as I wrote this, the above post was written. Funny coincidence.//

I found a decent use for Shanty town last night. There was a kingdom with:

Library
Festival
Pawn
Peddler
Shanty Town
Swindler

Shanty Town actually worked pretty well early on to help me double Swindler often (two swindlers, two shanty towns, thin deck).

I then built up to five, picked up a festival, two libraries. Then more festivals, and pawns with almost all the peddler stack quickly.

He got the first two colonies, but then I drew my entire deck in 3 straight turns and won 7-3 in colonies. Shanty town was pretty decent with library, since if you don't want them you can set them aside with library, or you can set up the shanty-bonus fairly easy (i.e. library with 3 cards, draw a few greens/treasures, draw festival, draw shanty town, keep shanty town. Festival, Shanty town draw two into a pawn, shanty town, draw pawn library, draw more, etc).

I also had a decent shanty town game with Shanty Town, Goons and Tactician, where shanty was the only (and needed villiage) to allow for some huge Tactician + triple/quadruple Goons hands.

The library game was the best I've seen shanty town so far. Overall though, I'd agree, it's a subpar villiage.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 08:34:35 am by Superdad »
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ShuffleNCut

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2011, 10:05:00 am »
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Minion:
-Buy them until you can hit province money every turn
-Try not to buy too many non-Minion cards if Minions are your primary strategy
-Goes well with non-terminals that have a useful effect as you can use them between draw fours (Festival/Lighthouse/Peddler/Market/Bazaar)
-Work best if you have some form of trashing to increase your Minion-to-other-cards ratio but buying more Minions works the same

Here are some sample game logs:
I start with Chapel then don't use it until turn 14
I dumbly buy some Remodels and Islands that clog my deck but eight Minions is mighty
I focus on Minions to rush Tournament/Province

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shanty Town:
-Better in the early game than the late game (opposite of all other villages) because it's more likely to act as a Laboratory when there are fewer actions to collide with
-Better in low numbers (two Shanty Towns essentially replace themselves in hand with no actions, three is actually card disadvantage)
-Probably the worst Village as it is built to facilitate action chains but paradoxically gets worse the more actions you have
-Makes going for action chains much less attractive as you will end up drawing far fewer cards during the game with Shanty than Village
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rinkworks

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2011, 10:10:51 am »
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The idea with Minion is you load up on them and almost nothing else.  If you can, trash the other stuff in your deck.  Once you have accumulated a critical mass of Minions, then you can run through your whole deck.  The general idea is, for each Minion in your hand except the last one, use it for the +2 coins.  Use the last one for the attack.  This gives you a new hand, presumably containing more Minions.  Repeat this process until you have enough to buy a Province (or Colony, in Colony games) or you get unlucky and hit a hand without any Minions.  Supplementing your Minion engine with drawing non-terminals like Market (for +Buy) or Conspirator (for even more cash) will help, but avoid buying treasure, as all it will do for you is to space out your Minions, and you'll be cycling past most of it anyway.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 10:13:50 am by rinkworks »
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tko

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 10:41:45 am »
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Another use for Minions is they help you dig for cards.  Want to hit that Cursing attack more frequently?  Use the Minion's discard option repeatedly until you find that Cursing attack.  Such as...

   --- tko's turn 9 ---
   tko gets +1 action and +$1 from the Fishing Village.
   tko plays a Fishing Village.
   ... getting +2 actions and +$1.
   tko plays a Minion.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... discarding the hand.
   ... drawing 4 cards.
   ... -Opponent- discards the hand.
   ... (-Opponent- reshuffles.)
   ... -Opponent- draws 4 cards.
   tko plays a Familiar.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
   ... -Opponent- gains a Curse.
   tko plays a Minion.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... discarding the hand.
   ... drawing 4 cards.
   ... -Opponent- has 4 cards in hand.
   tko plays 3 Coppers.
   tko buys a Minion.
   (tko reshuffles.)
   (tko draws: a Silver, a Potion, 2 Coppers, and a Native Village.)
...
   --- tko's turn 13 ---
   tko plays a Familiar.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
   ... -Opponent- gains a Curse.
   tko plays a Minion.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... getting +$2.
   tko plays a Minion.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... discarding the hand.
   ... drawing 4 cards.
   ... -Opponent- discards the hand.
   ... -Opponent- draws 4 cards.
   tko plays a Native Village.
   ... getting +2 actions.
   ... drawing a card and placing it on the Native Village mat.
   tko plays a Minion.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... discarding the hand.
   ... (tko reshuffles.)
   ... drawing 4 cards.
   ... -Opponent- has 4 cards in hand.
   tko plays a Fishing Village.
   ... getting +2 actions and +$1.
   tko plays a Fishing Village.
   ... getting +2 actions and +$1.
   tko plays a Minion.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... discarding the hand.
   ... drawing 4 cards.
   ... -Opponent- has 4 cards in hand.
   tko plays a Familiar.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
   ... -Opponent- gains a Curse.
   tko plays a Minion.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... getting +$2.
   tko plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
   tko buys a Province.
   (tko draws: a Curse, 2 Estates, and 2 Coppers.)
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PetterTB

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 10:47:28 am »
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Hey, don't be so harsh on the shanty town! I rather like shanty town, yes it doesn't work well as the core source of actions, but if you have alot of actions (KC with lab? cheap/gain villages?) It really helps your drawing, and also further greases your deck!
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DG

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2011, 11:57:24 am »
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Shanty towns really aren't like other villages. There are quite a few different situations though where they are useful.

- no actions: treasure with a shanty town can be better than treasure with another silver. This could be true in a colony game.
- with +action cards: as above but you play your laboratories first for +2 cards then the shanty town for +2 cards.
- lots of actions: if you have fishing villages as well as shanty towns, say, you can often play out terminal action cards then use the shanty town afterwards for +2 cards and yet more actions. It's worth the odd bad draw to get a more dynamic deck. Having a mixed portfolio of villages is often a good idea anyway.
- hand reduction: if your opponent is playing militias you can discard cards from a bad draw and get your shanty towns to work.
- hand selection: if you've got cellars or an upgrade you might be able to remove some mismatched action cards from hand.
- shrink then expand: play some shanty towns for extra actions then a library, minion, or watchtower to redraw the hand.
- flexible decks : put a shanty town, noble, steward, and hamlet together and you've got a lot of choice of how to play your hand.

Having said all that, shanty towns are at their worst when you want them to act like a basic village. You do have to keep an eye on your deck and not just assume that all villages work the same way.
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rinkworks

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2011, 12:26:30 pm »
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- hand reduction: if your opponent is playing militias you can discard cards from a bad draw and get your shanty towns to work.

Saying that made me realize Shanty Town can function as an outright antidote to Ghost Ship.  If you draw Shanty Town with one or two other actions and get Ghost Shipped, put the other actions back.  That "activates" your Shanty Town, which lets you draw them back into your hand.  Neat.
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fp

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2011, 03:03:28 pm »
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-Shanty town


I am actually a much bigger fan of the Shanty Town than most. It has actually gotten marginally better with Cornucopia.

The biggest use for Shanty town is on a Shanty Town/Silver or Shanty Town/Potion opening. This guarantees my Silver or Potion will not be a dead buy.
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randomdragoon

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2011, 09:56:22 pm »
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A single shanty town in a deck with no terminal actions acts as a very cheap laboratory.

Think of it like this: +2 cards/+1 action is very strong, one of the best $5 cards in the game. But in order to use Shanty town like this, you pretty much can't have any other terminals and can only have 1 shanty town in your deck (you play all your non-terminals first, then shanty town). (I say +1 action because you have no actual terminal cards to take advantage of the +2 actions, but don't worry, just the +2 cards/+1 action is strong enough as it is.) On the other hand, +2 actions is very weak. If you use Shanty town this way, the non-terminals had better be worth it, since you're sacrificing a whole card to get that extra action. They better be very good card draw to mitigate your loss of a card (torturer) or else they had better not care about your small hand (library).

All in all, you probably shouldn't get shanty town too often, as most boards won't be comprised of only good non-terminals or contain good enough terminal card draw to make shanty town worth it.


Side note: opening silver/shanty town, your shanty town is as good as a laboratory (until you buy a terminal)! So maybe it's not that easily discounted.
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guided

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2011, 10:46:35 pm »
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Side note: opening silver/shanty town, your shanty town is as good as a moat (until you buy a terminal)!
Fixed that for you ;D
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WanderingWinder

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2011, 11:53:46 pm »
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Side note: opening silver/shanty town, your shanty town is as good as a moat (until you buy a terminal)!
Fixed that for you ;D

Actually, you're wrong and they were right. If I have a caravan (or any other non-terminal) in my deck, shanty town can draw it without it being dead. Moat cannot.

guided

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2011, 01:19:10 am »
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Actually, you're wrong and they were right.
Consider Shanty Town vs. Laboratory with Minion. Or if Minion isn't your bag, how about Mining Village, Cellar, Upgrade, Haven, Warehouse, Apprentice, Hamlet, Tournament, or iunno, another Shanty Town? Not the only examples by any means, but the distinction between Lab and Shanty Town matters a bit less for stuff like Spy or University.

Yes, if it wasn't clear, I'm aware there are plenty of situations where Shanty Town is better than Moat. It was a cast-off jibe, not really worthy of an "IN YOUR FACE, Wrongy McWrongo!" even if you'd been right about it. :P
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 01:22:18 am by guided »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2011, 01:51:34 am »
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The point is that he was much closer than you were, and you had corrected him.
I also didn't intend it to be in-your-face, and if you assume it to be so, that's not really my problem. Generally, when I say that someone is wrong, that's exactly what I mean, but that's no insult to them. I'm wrong all the time. We all are.

manny calavera

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2011, 03:14:44 am »
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Thanks to all!
Now i have perfectly learned how minion could be used!
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guided

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2011, 10:04:45 am »
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Generally, when I say that someone is wrong, that's exactly what I mean
But when you say someone is right you just mean they're less wrong than someone else? Not buying it. Coming on the heels of the other thread... can we not make a habit of this, please?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2011, 10:34:04 am »
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Generally, when I say that someone is wrong, that's exactly what I mean
But when you say someone is right you just mean they're less wrong than someone else? Not buying it. Coming on the heels of the other thread... can we not make a habit of this, please?
No, when I say someone is right, I mean they're right. I was wrong to say that the person above was right, as they weren't right - only more right than you were. My basic point is that I find that I need to correct someone, more than at other times, when they're incorrectly correcting someone else. What I should have said was that they were closer to right than you, though, and for that, I apologize.
I actually don't know to what other thread you're referring to, and what "this" is that "we" aren't making a habit of.

guided

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2011, 11:17:55 am »
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I actually don't know to what other thread you're referring to, and what "this" is that "we" aren't making a habit of.
The Mining Village business. Seeing you in this thread immediately afterwards made it seem a bit like you were stalking me looking for nits to pick. If that's not the case, great! I'll try to take you more literally in the future if you'll try to give at least some thought to being more politic. It is your problem if you choose to couch factual statements in an inflammatory manner. "You're wrong and they were right," does not scan as a dispassionate statement of fact, and I think you know that.

FWIW, I misread "terminal" as "action" when making the original Moat comment.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2011, 11:41:46 am »
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Re: The mining village stuff - Oh! I hadn't even thought of that - I wasn't trying to say you were wrong there at all, just that I interpreted it differently and didn't think that I was wrong myself. I'm sure your way is equally valid there.
In this thread, I tried to levy my response at you in the same tone as you did in your correction. It isn't the least inflammatory way possible ("Wouldn't shanty town be more like lab in this case?"), but I don't think such extreme passivity is necessary, and I don't actually read that as inflammatory. I think the only reason you do is because you don't like being wrong, which is, of course, quite natural. OTOH "You're wrong!" or "You're WRONG" are a bit different - it's the closest we have to tone on the web.

Superdad

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2011, 01:25:10 pm »
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In an attempt to bring this thread back on target...   :)


Saying that made me realize Shanty Town can function as an outright antidote to Ghost Ship.  If you draw Shanty Town with one or two other actions and get Ghost Shipped, put the other actions back.  That "activates" your Shanty Town, which lets you draw them back into your hand.  Neat.

Indeed, I played a game yesterday where I realised this and my opponent didn't. He went with two ghost ships, and I just went Shanty town with some other strong terminals. I actually think Library was in the game, which is a very strong combo with Shanty Town (*and* counter to ghost ship as well!!). This is definitely a great example of "good cards aren't always good".

I don't think he realized until 3-4 ghost ships that I basically just shrugged off the attack. I dumped my non-shanty actions on top of my deck, played shanty, then played my actions. It's a very strong counter to remember.



For minion, the biggest thing to remember is that you need a critical mass of minions before you start greening your deck. If you start greening before you have enough minions, your minions don't really do anything whatsoever.

I learned this the hard way the other day. I hit an early $8, and instead of buying another minion, I bought a province. The next turn, I miraculously hit $8 again and bought a second province. Well, I spent 5-6 turns digging myself out of a hole, with my minions doing nothing more than shuffling my deck a few times before I dropped $4 and had to buy a silver, which at the same time slowed my engine down further.

I'd wait until you have at least 5-6 minions before you start greening your deck (obviously based entirely on how much time you think you have). The extra turn you spend buying a minion now instead of a province, you'll save down the road when you minion engine doesn't stall out a few times in a row on turns 15-19 like it would have if you didn't pick up that additional minion.

Obviously the more you can trash before you get rolling, the fewer minions that are required to reach critical mass. I'd say with strong trashing you can get away with 4-5, but without strong trashing you need 6+ (or abandon the minion plan all-together). That's just gut hunch, so take it with a grain of salt.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 01:35:50 pm by Superdad »
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guided

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2011, 01:29:17 pm »
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Very true about Ghost Ship. I've made the mistake on a handful of Shanty Town boards of going for Ghost Ship anyway (it's a pretty strong attack most of the time!) and paid dearly.
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DG

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Re: How to play these cards?
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2011, 01:42:41 pm »
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On some occasions though a wishing well or shanty town can be the wrong defence to a ghost ship. Sometimes it is better to lose a turn on three bad cards and put the other two good cards on top of the deck for next turn. Using the shanty to draw the cards back leaves you with 4 card hands which can sometimes go nowhere. You can of course not play the shanty town but in that case perhaps you shouldn't have bought it.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 01:45:30 pm by DG »
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