Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [All]

Author Topic: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X  (Read 9152 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
"Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« on: May 22, 2012, 02:27:17 pm »
+3

According to this interview with Donald X:

http://meepletown.com/2012/02/game-designer-interview-donald-x-vaccarino-again/

Dark Ages is going to be about in line with Prosperity in terms of complexity, but will be the most "flavorful."  I'm taking that to mean wacky cards like Pirate Ship or Tournament or Fool's Gold.

He also said that Guilds will be the most complex of all the expansions.

Thoughts?
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2012, 02:36:19 pm »
0

The interview posted here, suggests "flavor" has to do with theme, i.e. cards whose abilities are well-suited to their names. This doesn't necessarily mean "wacky", but it's likely they will be on average a bit more interesting.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2012, 02:51:22 pm »
+2

Yeeha, another medieval game!

BaruMonkey

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 110
  • Respect: +191
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2012, 03:18:33 pm »
+12

I'll interpret it to mean that this will be a food-themed expansion. With variations on: Feast, Bazaar, Fishing Village, Vineyard, Herbalist, Farming Village, Harvest, Horn of Plenty, Spice Merchant, Farmland...
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2012, 03:49:50 pm »
+1

From what he's posted here and at BGG, I'd definitely consider him complex.  Flavorful... um... yeah, I'm not touching that.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Tdog

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Respect: +133
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2012, 10:43:19 pm »
0

Kitchen Table
Cost: Number Of Players * 2
+1 Action
+2 Cards for each player besides yourself
Each other player draws a card.
Logged

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +748
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2012, 11:32:44 pm »
+1

I am excited for a complex expansion, but flavorful? Hmm... I have alway wanted to know how Victory cards taste... crunchy?
WARNING: Morgrim7 and co. is not responsible for any brain damage or loss of creativity acquired after reading that incredibly corny joke. The views expressed in that joke are not necessarily the views of Morgrim7 and co. Comprehend this joke at your own risk.
Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2012, 06:25:21 am »
+2

I'm not scared of complex. A lot of the cards that we consider complex are easy once you've played once or twice with them.
They may create confusing interactions (Ironworks/Great Hall/Trader) but once we get a ruling and a second ruling we're set.
KC and TR with durations still confuse me.

What if I play KC-Wharf, play some other actions, play KC-Wharf again, play other actions, play last KC-Wharf. Now I have to leave all the KCs out there?
And if I play KC-KC-Wharf-Wharf-Wharf I just have to leave one out there? Still a bit clueless.

I don't know what I would consider the most complex card to date, maybe Pirate Ship? But that's because the second clause of the choice comes six lines after the first. Scrying Pool had me confused in the beginning, but that's because I thought: "Wait, it can't be THIS good that I can draw a gazillion cards at once!" But it was.

Possession is confusing because you never quite know who's turn it is: Is it my turn playing your cards? Is it your turn with me playing your cards? With multiple Possessions it can be like Inception. Couple them with Outpost and you're truly lost.

Any card that messes with the setup is confusing at first. Trade Route: You want me to do what now? Every VP pile? Are the Curses a VP pile? They're not. Embargo is similar.

Mint can be confusing because you think: "Do I still get the $ from the Treasures I played or are do I immediateley have $0 left after buying it?"

Potion is weird with cards the specify cost or cost in coins.

The rest is pretty easy.  :P
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2012, 08:06:30 am »
+1


They may create confusing interactions (Ironworks/Great Hall/Trader) but once we get a ruling and a second ruling we're set.

I laughed out loud. 

Intuitively to me it seems like Throne Room should not stay out with my Caravans.  I played the Caravan twice, I put it on the table, earning me a card now and later, and then put it back on the table, earning me a card now and later.  And then it has two reasons to stay in play next turn. 
It's ok if things are complicated to the point where I'm not sure how something works, but it irks me when it seems intuitive and clear how something should work but somehow it doesn't.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2012, 09:16:53 am »
0


They may create confusing interactions (Ironworks/Great Hall/Trader) but once we get a ruling and a second ruling we're set.

I laughed out loud. 

Intuitively to me it seems like Throne Room should not stay out with my Caravans.  I played the Caravan twice, I put it on the table, earning me a card now and later, and then put it back on the table, earning me a card now and later.  And then it has two reasons to stay in play next turn. 
It's ok if things are complicated to the point where I'm not sure how something works, but it irks me when it seems intuitive and clear how something should work but somehow it doesn't.
But your next turn, if you only have a caravan in play, and physically you only have one copy of the card in play, how do you know that it gives you double effect? You have to remember. And precisely remembering that in these games with big chains is sorta hard....

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012, 09:19:08 am »
0

I don't know what I would consider the most complex card to date,

Possession. Followed by trader.
Um, rank the expansions in order of complexity. Least to greatest: Base, Prosperity, Intrigue, Cornucopia, Seaside, Hinterlands, Alchemy, Promo? Which would mean, according to that interview, that Dark Ages is going to be pretty darn simple....

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012, 10:27:59 am »
0

I don't know what I would consider the most complex card to date,

Possession. Followed by trader.
Um, rank the expansions in order of complexity. Least to greatest: Base, Prosperity, Intrigue, Cornucopia, Seaside, Hinterlands, Alchemy, Promo? Which would mean, according to that interview, that Dark Ages is going to be pretty darn simple....

In the same interview, Donald X said he felt Prosperity was the most complex to date - more so than Hinterlands or Seaside.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2012, 11:38:13 am »
0

Um, rank the expansions in order of complexity. Least to greatest: Base, Prosperity, Intrigue, Cornucopia, Seaside, Hinterlands, Alchemy, Promo?

Alchemy, really? I've always thought Alchemy was one of the least complex, with the exception of Possession. The only rule change is the introduction of Potions, which are fairly simple to understand how they work. There's no fiddly bits like in Prosperity or Seaside, no cards where you have to make choices with no way of tracking what you chose, no cards that do things when you buy them or at any other odd times except during cleanup—with the notable exception of Possession, I found Alchemy almost as straightforward as the base set.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2012, 12:15:01 pm »
0

All the Dominion expansions, from least to most complex:

1. Base
2. Intrigue
3. Seaside
4. Alchemy
5. Prosperity
6. Cornucopia
7. Hinterlands
8. Promo

Actually I'd put Seaside in between Cornucopia and Hinterlands, there are two different tokens and three mats and Duration cards, but besides that I'm being dead serious here.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012, 12:42:06 pm »
+7

All the Dominion expansions, from least to most complex:

1. Base
2. Intrigue
3. Seaside
4. Alchemy
5. Prosperity
6. Cornucopia
7. Hinterlands

Wait, I see what you did there.... You just sorted them by how long their names are!
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2012, 12:56:03 pm »
+1

Can someone explain to me what makes prosperity complicated?

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2012, 01:03:01 pm »
0

Can someone explain to me what makes prosperity complicated?

Some of those tokens have 5s on them, and some have 1s. And then these Trade Route ones, what are they worth? It's all too much...
Logged

paddyodoors

  • Guest
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2012, 01:26:23 pm »
0

Can someone explain to me what makes prosperity complicated?

One possibility is the major introduction of kingdom-treasures that had action-like qualities to them.  Up until that point, all we had seen was Harem and Phil's Stone.  For gameplay purposes, Harem is a Silver and Phil's Stone was worth a variable amount.

But {Loan, Contraband, Talisman, Venture}, when played, force you or someone else to actually do something (other than count your deck).  They have an "action-y" feel to them.  Bank is similar to Phil's Stone in that a variable amount is all that it is.

I'm offering this as a possibility, not because I actually find these to be complicated.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2012, 01:48:44 pm »
+3

Can someone explain to me what makes prosperity complicated?

Almost every single Prosperity card has wacky extra stuff they do.  Trade Route?  Bishop?  Vault?  Contraband?  Peddler?  Goons?  A lot of the cards might be simple upgrades of vanilla cards, but there's a lot to keep track of.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2012, 02:14:10 pm »
+3

It could be just because of KC.

KC chains can make anything ridiculous.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2012, 02:19:05 pm »
+4

For me the features that make Prosperity more complicated than Base/Intrigue/Alchemy are:

* more non-attack player interaction than we were used to (Bishop, Vault, Trade Route)
* cards that require you to not just lay all your Treasure on the table, but play them in a specific order or hold some back (Mint, GM, Loan, Contraband, Bank). 

The second one was a big change for many people- while it technically wasn't a new rule, it really felt like it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 11:35:58 pm by chwhite »
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

Powerman

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 766
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2012, 08:31:07 pm »
0

Can someone explain to me what makes prosperity complicated?

Peddler/ Quarry/ Talisman/ Loan/ King's Court + Vault.

Peddler - When does it cost less?
Quarry - Multiple buys/ talisman interactions
Talisman - Reading the clause that victory cards don't count, price reductions.
Loan - When we first got the set we thought you played the treasure and THEN trashed or discarded it... it was always the strongest card out lol.
King's Court + Vault - We thought you could discard all your cards for $3 each... leading to this combo netting $30 every time it was played :D
Logged
A man on a mission.

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1422
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2113
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2012, 10:52:50 pm »
0

Now that I put more thought into it, I'm coming up with some more ways in which Prosperity could be considered complex:

Watchtower has one of the longest FAQs doesn't it? And City is the first card to check the game state for empty piles each time it's played. Counting House is an exception to the rule about not looking through your discard pile. Grand Market is the first card you can't buy with that money you start out with. Goons is the first action card with the "While this is in play" clause prohibiting it from 'working' with TR/KC (though Herbalist's under-the-line text does give the same effect).

The timing for buying and gaining things also matters for the first time (Quarry/Talisman/Royal Seal when buying Mint for fully demonstrative, if silly/contrived example--buying an Estate with Hoard in play and using Watchtower for a more simple example).

Adding another game ending condition (Colonies).

Maybe Prosperity just seems simpler now because all of this is second nature to us after almost 2 years.
Logged
🚂 Give 18xx games a chance 🚂

Piemaster

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 260
  • Respect: +170
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2012, 05:49:51 am »
0

Grand Market is the first card you can't buy with that money you start out with.
I think that would be Province :P
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2012, 08:41:08 am »
+1

Oh, you can also do the same kind of ranking for flavourful. From most to least:
Seaside
Alchemy
Cornucopia
Promo
Prosperity
Hinterlands
Dominion
Intrigue

...the last couple on the list have virtually no flavour though.

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +748
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2012, 09:05:01 am »
0

Oh, you can also do the same kind of ranking for flavourful. From most to least:
Seaside
Alchemy
Cornucopia
Promo
Prosperity
Hinterlands
Dominion
Intrigue

...the last couple on the list have virtually no flavour though.
I disagree. More like this:
Prosperity
Alchemy
Seaside
Promos
Cornucopia
Hinterlands
Base
Intrigue
Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1422
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2113
    • View Profile
Re: "Flavorful" and "Complex" - Donald X
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2012, 10:29:28 am »
0

Grand Market is the first card you can't buy with that money you start out with.
I think that would be Province :P
That's what I get for trying to say something more interesting than just "Copper" :P
Logged
🚂 Give 18xx games a chance 🚂
Pages: 1 2 [All]
 

Page created in 0.049 seconds with 20 queries.