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Author Topic: 3-person isodom?  (Read 4330 times)

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ednever

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3-person isodom?
« on: May 21, 2012, 11:40:13 am »
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There seems to be more and more discussion around 3-person Dominion. It's Donald X's preferred playing method. It's also the format of almost every off-line tournament I've come across.

I'm convinced that the top players on iso are the top Dominion players in the world - at 2-player. I'm less convinced that's true of multi-player.

Lately I've been clicking "2-player" and "3-player" in auto-match, but I have yet to have a 3-player auto-match happen.

What would the interest level be here for a three-player tournament on iso?

Unfortunately head off on a two week vacation this Thursday (OK. Not that unfortunate.), otherwise I would be happy to manage it. But if there is interest and no one else picks up the ball, I can get it going when I get back on June 11th.

Feel free to post in this thread if interested in playing and/or managing a 3-person tournament.

Ed
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Robz888

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Re: 3-person isodom?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2012, 11:41:47 am »
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I would love a 3 person tournament. I play a lot of IRL 3 player.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: 3-person isodom?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2012, 12:07:55 pm »
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Sounds like fun. Problem is scheduling things becomes much much harder. Also, we're SUPPOSED to have a 3 or 4-player qualifying tourney hosted by the forums, on the official site/app. Well, we'll see if that happens.
Anyway, I'm down, but it's not IsoDom.

Kirian

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Re: 3-person isodom?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2012, 12:30:55 pm »
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There seems to be more and more discussion around 3-person Dominion. It's Donald X's preferred playing method.

Actually, Donald has said that though he prefers 3P for casual play, he very strongly believes 2P is best for tournament play.  I'll have to find the thread.

Edit:  OK, that was easy:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2408.msg38377#msg38377
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Young Nick

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Re: 3-person isodom?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2012, 12:33:27 pm »
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Sounds like fun. Problem is scheduling things becomes much much harder. Also, we're SUPPOSED to have a 3 or 4-player qualifying tourney hosted by the forums, on the official site/app. Well, we'll see if that happens.
Anyway, I'm down, but it's not IsoDom.

What is the definition of IsoDom? I would think that it would be a tournament started by MMM, but Kirian has started to discuss a Swiss IsoDom, no?
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Tejayes

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Re: 3-person isodom?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2012, 01:28:22 pm »
+1

As a 3-player fan myself, I've been working on a bracket for ranked/seeded 3p tournaments, since I can't find any good examples of such online. So far, I have two prototypes for anyone who wants to take a gander:

PROTOTYPE #1: DOUBLE UNDERDOG

In regular 2p tournaments, the highest-ranked player is paired up with the lowest ranked, and so on and so forth. The later rounds are constructed expecting the higher ranked player to advance each time. This first prototype pits the top-ranked player against the two bottom-ranked players, and so on. Here is a mock-up of what a ranked 81-entrant 3p tournament would look like under this model:

1-80-81|26-30-31|27-28-29
----------------------------
8-66-67|12-58-59|13-56-57
----------------------------
9-64-65|10-62-63|11-60-61
======================
2-78-79|24-34-35|25-32-33
----------------------------
6-70-71|16-50-51|17-48-49
----------------------------
7-68-69|14-54-55|15-52-53
======================
3-76-77|22-38-39|23-36-37
----------------------------
4-74-75|20-42-43|21-40-41
----------------------------
5-72-73|18-46-47|19-44-45

PROTOTYPE #2: TOP-MIDDLE-BOTTOM CYCLING

If you notice in 2p tournaments, when you sum up the first-round ranks (and expected ranks for each later round) for each match, all the sums will be the same (65 in the first round of a 64-player tournament, for example). This prototype uses a "simple" method to create 3-player match-ups that result in identical rank sums.

To do this, split up the total ranks (assuming it's in the form of 3^n) into thirds -- one top-third, one middle-third, and one bottom-third. Split each third into thirds again, and so on until you can't split them anymore. At each split, label each rank based on what third it was split into this time. For example, in the 81-rank mock-up below, rank 23 is in the first top-third, so it received a T. In the next split, it was in the bottom third, so it received a B. Next split, it's in the middle third (M). In the final split, it was the middle of three (M). Thus, #23's final designation is TBMM.

To match up the ranks, start with the expected final round of 1-2-3. Right now, that's just a simple T-M-B. For a 9-player tournament, 1, 2, and 3 are all in the top-third, so they would now be TT, TM, and TB, respectively. The rest (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) would be MT, MM, MB, BT, BM, and BB, respectively. To find your match-ups, take a rank, then do one cycle up and one cycle down. For example, since rank 1 is TT, a cycle up would be BB (rank 9) and a cycle down would be MM (rank 5). If you had started with ranks 5 or 9, you'd get the same results. Do this for every round up until you are complete. Going back to 23, its first-round opponents in the 81-rank mock-up would be MTBB (rank 36) and BMTT (rank 64).

Here is the final mock-up for this 81-rank prototype. As you can see, each first-round rank sum is 123, each expected second-round rank sum is 42, and each expected third-round rank sum is 15:

1-41-81|14-54-55|27-28-68
----------------------------
5-45-73|18-46-59|19-32-72
----------------------------
9-37-77|10-50-63|23-36-64
======================
2-42-79|15-52-56|25-29-69
----------------------------
6-43-74|16-47-60|20-33-70
----------------------------
7-38-78|11-51-61|24-34-65
======================
3-40-80|13-53-57|26-30-67
----------------------------
4-44-75|17-48-58|21-31-71
----------------------------
8-39-76|12-49-62|22-35-66

Of course, if this 3p tournament were to be unranked, all of this is moot. Still, hopefully it's something to consider.
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Kirian

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Re: 3-person isodom?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2012, 01:40:42 pm »
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Sounds like fun. Problem is scheduling things becomes much much harder. Also, we're SUPPOSED to have a 3 or 4-player qualifying tourney hosted by the forums, on the official site/app. Well, we'll see if that happens.
Anyway, I'm down, but it's not IsoDom.

What is the definition of IsoDom? I would think that it would be a tournament started by MMM, but Kirian has started to discuss a Swiss IsoDom, no?

Well, I guess the question is simply, are people willing to accept me as taking over IsoDom?  If y'all feel someone else is better-suited, let me know, and I can step down.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: 3-person isodom?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2012, 01:49:48 pm »
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My point is, we don't need to call every isotropic tournament isodom. It gets confusing. You can just have your own tournaments, and call them something memorable and distinguishing.
As for IsoDom itself. That was really Jake's (that is, Mean Mr. Mustard) thing to me, and I guess I can see Kirian reasonably getting involved in taking the banner, since Jake made him co-lead of IsoDom Challenge.

Having said that, I don't care so much, except I don't want 3 tournaments running around with almost the same name, going on at the same time.

rspeer

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Re: 3-person isodom?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2012, 11:30:41 pm »
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Tejayes, are you designing it as an elimination bracket? Wouldn't it work best to just use the Swiss system normally?
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Tejayes

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Re: 3-person isodom?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2012, 10:17:49 am »
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Tejayes, are you designing it as an elimination bracket? Wouldn't it work best to just use the Swiss system normally?

Honestly, I wasn't really thinking about alternates when I posted. I've just been tinkering with three-player elimination systems lately, then saw the "3-person isodom" thread and thought, "Woo-hoo, relevant to my little project!" For simplicity's sakes, the Swiss system probably would be best, but I still wanted to share my ideas.
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