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Author Topic: I don't know what this thread has turned into (was Making it to Level 42 -Lvl 5)  (Read 46132 times)

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fp

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Hello, the next article in the series is delayed. It contains commentary for some games which I am currently seeking permission to use. Otherwise, it is ready to go.

Thanks,
fp
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 04:39:04 am by fp »
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philosophyguy

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Would it be possible for you to post the article without the games for which you're still waiting for permission, and supplement the article later with the games? I can't be the only person who's eager to continue reading the series.
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Auroch

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If you're not going to post the article why did you bother making a thread?
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tko

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Hello, the next article in the series is delayed. It contains commentary for some games which I am currently seeking permission to use. Otherwise, it is ready to go.
Just post the article.  Permission is a noble but unnecessary pursuit. Us less than level-42 people are interested in your expert commentary.
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painted_cow

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The title is still a bit unclear to me. Why excactly 42 and not like #1 Leaderboard :-) Otherwise I should not read your expected good article  :P
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grep

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The Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything
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Agrisios

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The title is still a bit unclear to me. Why excactly 42 and not like #1 Leaderboard :-)

For being and staying Nr. 1 (at least while Theory is inactive) there is already another method - however a very boring and strange one:

http://councilroom.com/search_result?p1_name=tat

Here are the last 15 games of current nr. 1 "tat". It's a shame comparing this to the creative players like Blooki, painted_cow, Ben Warden and others ranked lower. And it reminds us not to take the leaderboard too serious.

Level 8 -> 94:11
Level 18 -> 31:23
Level 9 -> 62:26
Level 12 -> 31:0
Level 4 -> 25:33 (lost)
Level 4 -> 20:5
Level 5 -> 40:18
Level 6 -> 30:10
Level 11 -> 38:33
Level 1 -> 37:18
Level 4 -> 36:18
Level 0 -> 46:19
Level 7 -> 46:29
Level 15 -> 3:4 (lost)
Level 11 -> 40:43 (lost)
Level 8 -> 48:48 (win)

and so on
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Dave970

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The title is still a bit unclear to me. Why excactly 42 and not like #1 Leaderboard :-)

For being and staying Nr. 1 (at least while Theory is inactive) there is already another method - however a very boring and strange one:

http://councilroom.com/search_result?p1_name=tat

Here are the last 15 games of current nr. 1 "tat". It's a shame comparing this to the creative players like Blooki, painted_cow, Ben Warden and others ranked lower. And it reminds us not to take the leaderboard too serious.

Level 8 -> 94:11
Level 18 -> 31:23
Level 9 -> 62:26
Level 12 -> 31:0
Level 4 -> 25:33 (lost)
Level 4 -> 20:5
Level 5 -> 40:18
Level 6 -> 30:10
Level 11 -> 38:33
Level 1 -> 37:18
Level 4 -> 36:18
Level 0 -> 46:19
Level 7 -> 46:29
Level 15 -> 3:4 (lost)
Level 11 -> 40:43 (lost)
Level 8 -> 48:48 (win)

and so on


The guy (or girl) uses automatch; I have no idea what you're insinuating about this person.
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Blooki

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For being and staying Nr. 1 (at least while Theory is inactive) there is already another method - however a very boring and strange one:

http://councilroom.com/search_result?p1_name=tat

Here are the last 15 games of current nr. 1 "tat". It's a shame comparing this to the creative players like Blooki, painted_cow, Ben Warden and others ranked lower. And it reminds us not to take the leaderboard too serious.


I appreciate the compliment, but my pattern of games shouldn't be too far off tat's. I'm primarily an auto-matcher these days and treat Dominion as many would treat Solitaire or Minesweeper, an entertaining diversion while multi-tasking on their computer. I think rating is inflated due to playing against low-ranked opponents.

That being said, I do think you make a very good point that the leaderboard shouldn't be taken too seriously seeing as is depends on  variables such as game selection.
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WanderingWinder

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I'm not sure that playing low-rateds really inflates your rank much if at all. My gut would have said the opposite. But I could well be wrong, especially as I don't know the precise standards by which this stuff is actually calculated.

Axe Knight

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I'm not sure that playing low-rateds really inflates your rank much if at all. My gut would have said the opposite. But I could well be wrong, especially as I don't know the precise standards by which this stuff is actually calculated.

My general formula for how I'm doing on isotropic is:

Define the sequence of opponents' levels by x_n, and my level by y.

For each win, add x_n.
For each loss, add 0 if x_n>=y, and add (x_n-y) if x_n<=y.

This is no one way reflective of the isotropic method (it clearly ignores that losing to multiple people at my level or higher will drop me), but it's my personal benchmark on how I did that day.  This way, I make sure I keep the competition where it should be if I'm to move up.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 02:45:37 am by Axe Knight »
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Brando Commando

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The title is still a bit unclear to me. Why excactly 42 and not like #1 Leaderboard :-)

For being and staying Nr. 1 (at least while Theory is inactive) there is already another method - however a very boring and strange one:

http://councilroom.com/search_result?p1_name=tat

Here are the last 15 games of current nr. 1 "tat". It's a shame comparing this to the creative players like Blooki, painted_cow, Ben Warden and others ranked lower. And it reminds us not to take the leaderboard too serious.

Level 8 -> 94:11
...
Level 8 -> 48:48 (win)

and so on

Honestly, I'm not even sure what you're saying. Are you saying "tat" just beats the pants off lower-ranked players to keep his ranking high?

It's already been pointed out that this is just the result of automatch, but how about this nugget from the isotropic FAQ:
"...beating someone who the system already thinks is worse than you doesn't improve your skill estimate that much..."

So maybe he or she is just good at the game.
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Superdad

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Indeed, being paired against low level opponents is the worst thing that can happen to a top player. They basically have to win. If they win they get next to no "rating". If they lose however, they'll lose a TON.

When I was low level when I started, I wasn't a whole lot worse than I am now. I was just new. And while I was "new" to dominion (isotropic), I brought with me almost 20 years of card game experience. I was certainly not a greenhorn.

So when I was level 2, I was probably really playing at a level 20-30 range. Anyone that I beat on my way up would have lost a ton of rating, because I was a "low level player", even though I really wasn't. In most games, this is called being a "smurf" (although that more-relates to creating a new account for the sole purposes of beating up on new players, not really the situation I was in).

Regardless though, I hate playing low level players. Especially when that level 1 player opens Ambassador/Ambassador. I know he's not a true level 1. I basically must beat him, but he is a very solid player. I'm in a lose-lose situation, really.
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painted_cow

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I agree like 100 % on Agrisios post.

The listing of his/her opponents is nice, but even more clear is a look on councilroom. Just check the stats by opponents, there you find Latvia/Artjoms and then a really long time no player I recognize over 30 (and I have played at lot..). I wont respect a player who only plays beginners and celebrates himself as #1.

Using automatch is imo only a nice excuse for this "noobbashing". If you are honest you know yourself when using automatch, that you play many beginners. Even when Blooki states, that he is doing it lately, there is a big difference. Blooki played many games vs. highlevel players, tat not at all.

I dont know, why one should use automatch in 2-player. U get games via proposing really fast these days. In 3 players its a complete change. I played 3pl alot, but you cant propose games to start a game. In this case you need automatch to get a game starting!

Anyone who dont think that rating isnt inflated by playing beginners is wrong imo. Many players stated this fact already.

@Brando Commando: Do you really think that "...beating someone who the system already thinks is worse than you doesn't improve your skill estimate that much..."
How should one get above level 45?




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Thisisnotasmile

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"Automatching will give you low ranked opponents and therefore you are a noob-basher if you automatch"

No.
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DG

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I think the difficulty is that we just don't know how good Tat really is since there are so few games logged between Tat and the other high ranked players. You can clearly elevate your ranking to the top of the board by playing many matches against opponents that are (a) low ranked and (b) random selected, since Tat appears to have done exactly that.
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Fabian

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Yeah I agree with painted_cow. I may only be level 39-40, but I'm there by (almost) always manually challenging the highest ranked player available in the lobby until someone will play me, always playing random sets, and never declining based on the cards (including cards I hate playing against strong opponents, as I'm generally much worse with them than they are). Though I can't say I know all the details about how the ranking system works, I feel pretty confident this isn't exactly the best method if you care about maximizing your ranking. I may only win ~61% of my matches compared to 76% or whatever, but I feel a lot better about it than I would if I did what tat (and I'm sure plenty of others) did to artifically inflate his ranking.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:46:47 am by Fabian »
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Thisisnotasmile

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I used to do that. I was a level 33. Then the automatch feature was introduced and I started using it. Within a week or two I had dropped to level 21. I've now worked myself back up to a level 27 through automatching. I feel a lot better about it than I would if I carried on doing what you (and I'm sure some others) do to artificially inflate your ranking.
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Dave970

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I agree like 100 % on Agrisios post.

The listing of his/her opponents is nice, but even more clear is a look on councilroom. Just check the stats by opponents, there you find Latvia/Artjoms and then a really long time no player I recognize over 30 (and I have played at lot..). I wont respect a player who only plays beginners and celebrates himself as #1.

Using automatch is imo only a nice excuse for this "noobbashing". If you are honest you know yourself when using automatch, that you play many beginners. Even when Blooki states, that he is doing it lately, there is a big difference. Blooki played many games vs. highlevel players, tat not at all.

I dont know, why one should use automatch in 2-player. U get games via proposing really fast these days. In 3 players its a complete change. I played 3pl alot, but you cant propose games to start a game. In this case you need automatch to get a game starting!

Anyone who dont think that rating isnt inflated by playing beginners is wrong imo. Many players stated this fact already.

@Brando Commando: Do you really think that "...beating someone who the system already thinks is worse than you doesn't improve your skill estimate that much..."
How should one get above level 45?

We're already way off the intended target of this thread, and while I'm not one to normally throw fuel on a fire, you come off sounding like an elitist jackass with your post.  I suggest you play the guy (or girl) if you think he/she is some kind of imposter at the top slot.  I'm not even sure tat is registered to these forums, let alone "celebrating himself as #1".  I know the person uses automatch, as it's tried to automatch me against him/her recently, and the recent history is easily explained in that way.  Automatch is no sign of how good or bad a player is... it just means the player wants games, and will play anyone.  You still have to win.  If you think otherwise, then propose matches directly with tat, and beat tat.
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Fabian

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Dave, don't think I haven't challenged tat many times. He won't play me.

Thisisnotasmile, I can't tell if you're joking or not, but ok?
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Thisisnotasmile

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No jokes. I took a big hit when I started automatching. I really don't get the "automatching artificially inflates your rating" crap.
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Fabian

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Do you get "playing exclusively weak players and winning 76% of your matches against them will result in a higher ranking than strong players playing other strong players" then?
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Thisisnotasmile

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No.
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Dave970

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Dave, don't think I haven't challenged tat many times. He won't play me.

Thisisnotasmile, I can't tell if you're joking or not, but ok?

Well, that's a different story, then.  I suppose we need to know more about the formula used to produce the ranking, and what inputs are given what weight... but in the end, why does it matter?  Is there some cookie for being the top-ranked person for a simulated card game on the internet?

More than anything, I'd rather just see this discussion pulled from this thread.  It's irrelevant, and a distraction from the hopefully informative post that we're waiting for here on the next step in improving our game.
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Fabian

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Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you then, but you think tat would easily be the strongest player on isotropic if he played other strong players too, then? If this is not what you believe, can you explain?
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