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[eHalcyon]

Since many people seem to be posting card ideas today, here's something...

The concept is that these cards use a shared token system, giving them a natural synergy.  I am sure that there are many different things you could do with such a system; these are just a few ideas.  I haven't play-tested them (don't have a regular group to play with) but would love feedback and suggestions.

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Relic -- Treasure
Cost: $5

$1.  +1 Relic token.  When you play this, you may give up any number of Relic tokens for +$1 each.

Details: Relic is always worth $2 if desired, since it provides a Relic token when played.  Its main power comes from the flexibility provided via the tokens; you can save up coin for the future.  The power is compounded if there are other cards around that use Relic tokens.


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Abbot -- Action
Cost: $4

+1 Relic token.

Trash a card from your hand.  Gain Relic tokens equal to half its cost in coins, rounded down.

When this is in the Kingdom, at the start of your turn you may give up any number of Relic tokens.  +1 Card for each token given up.

Details: This card introduces a persistent effect that all players may use so long as you have Relic tokens available.  The card drawing power does not cost an action.  I think this may be buggy with Black Market!

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Abbey -- Action
Cost: $6

Choose one: Trash any number of your cards from your hand and gain that number of Relic tokens; or give up any number of Relic tokens and choose one for each token lost (you may choose the same thing multiple times): +2 Cards, +2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$2.

Details: This is probably too powerful due to the massive flexibility, but it is offset (at least on its own) by the heavy cost of gaining those tokens.  It does function as a super-chapel in this manner, but you can't buy it as an opener so it's not as effect a deck-thinner.  Also... lots of AP, probably.

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I originally had an alternate VP card named "Reliquary" that was almost identical to the recently posted Tower card.  But thinking more on it, I don't think such a card would play well with a shared token mat.

Having such a VP card disincentivizes using the tokens for bonuses with the other cards.  Similarly, having the other cards available to gain even more tokens discourages a player from trying to end the game as opposed to accumulating more and more points.

Any suggestions on another way to do token-based VP?

[eHalcyon]

No thoughts at all?

[Morgrim7]

So Relic tokens are like all purpost collectables? hmm...
Relic: Comparable to Vault. Maybe overpriced? Scenario: I have spent a couple of turns playing Relic and I have saved up five tokens. Free Duchy. Big whoop. Maybe make it a cantrip with +Buy and nix the $1.
Abbot: Interesting card. Could you, at the start of our turn, choose to giv up a Relic token and draw a card, look at the card, and repeat?
Abbey: Nice with cursers. But it shares the problem of Forge and Expand, by the time you can scrape up to six with a few Golds in your deck, its a little too late for trashing.

Who would gain the token if on of these cards were played during a Possession turn?

[Morgrim7]

About token based VP, maybe something like this?
Reliquary
$? Action
+1 Relic
You may trade in two relic tokens. If you do, gain an Artifact on your a
Artifact mat.

Artifact
$0* Victory (This is not in the supply)
2VP

[WanderingWinder]

Well, we already have one form of shared tokens - Trade Route

[qmech]

Well, we already have one form of shared tokens - Trade Route

That's what I was expecting the first time I saw this thread, but I think the idea is that you have your own personal tokens, but that they're shared between multiple cards.

[WanderingWinder]

Well, we already have one form of shared tokens - Trade Route

That's what I was expecting the first time I saw this thread, but I think the idea is that you have your own personal tokens, but that they're shared between multiple cards.

That's why I said 'one form'. There are others besides that one and what's being presented here.

As for the idea here... I don't like it. Potion-cost cards sort of have a similar problem in that you get pretty big fluctuations in their desirability depending on how many are out. This is a little different, but similar in a good way. If you have 3 cards in a sea of 160, the chances of getting them together are low, unless you make it a mechanic of the cards that they always come together (probably via extra piles like with the Young Witch bane - holy crap, I just thought of a reason why Dark Ages might be so big...). So there's a big variability in the power of the cards if two or three are out, and you have to try to balance it for BOTH kinds of situations, which is just very difficult. Not impossible, maybe, but hard.
As for the cards themselves, without sharing the tokens: I quite like Relic. A LOT. But I think it can cost 4 quite easily, even 3 really, possiblyeven 2. I'd start it at 2 (always start things the cheapest you can see them possibly being, and if they aren't broken...) and then work it up as needed. I mean, it is a terminal silver or terminal copper which you can use as a gold later.
Abbot: Again, this seems weak. I would try immediately upping it to the full cost, which makes it like a delayed version of apprentice that's terminal. Hmm, that might be a touch too strong. But try it, it might not be. As is, it's terminal and does NOTHING for you for a while. Pretty darn slow...
Abbey: And this seems weakest of all. At 6, it's going to take a heckuva long time to get many tokens, and that's further exacerbated by having to play this terminal twice before you can get any of the benefits. It can explode at the end, I guess, which makes it a bit swingy, but I suspect that for most games, it's going to just be too slow to make much comeback by then. I'd try bumping it down to 5, but then you probably have to nerf it just a little. Take one of the options away, or limit the number of tokens you can take off, or something.

[eHalcyon]

Thanks for the comments.

Relic: Comparable to Vault. Maybe overpriced? Scenario: I have spent a couple of turns playing Relic and I have saved up five tokens. Free Duchy. Big whoop. Maybe make it a cantrip with +Buy and nix the $1.

As I have it written right now, I do not think it is comparable to Vault.  For one thing, it is a Treasure, not an Action.  Basically it is always at least a Silver, but if you don't need it to be Silver you can save the extra coinage in the form of the tokens, which can be used up in the future.  I've had this idea down for a while but it actually relates really well to the discussion in the "biggest flaws" thread, re: overspending vs. underspending on turns.  This is another mechanic for smoothing out your coin per hand.

Abbot: Interesting card. Could you, at the start of our turn, choose to giv up a Relic token and draw a card, look at the card, and repeat?
Abbey: Nice with cursers. But it shares the problem of Forge and Expand, by the time you can scrape up to six with a few Golds in your deck, its a little too late for trashing.

Who would gain the token if on of these cards were played during a Possession turn?

As I have it worded right now, you do it once at the start of your turn, so you can't draw, look, and repeat.

That's a good point.  What if it was at $5?  Perhaps this is just too ridiculous an idea, as it is kind of a super-Pawn.

Tokens would go to the player whose turn it is, so they would go to the Possessed player, just like VP chips.

Also, that's a decent token based VP idea, but if cards are going to a special mat, they might as well be tokens as well... might as well be VP chips.

As for the idea here... I don't like it. Potion-cost cards sort of have a similar problem in that you get pretty big fluctuations in their desirability depending on how many are out. This is a little different, but similar in a good way. If you have 3 cards in a sea of 160, the chances of getting them together are low, unless you make it a mechanic of the cards that they always come together (probably via extra piles like with the Young Witch bane - holy crap, I just thought of a reason why Dark Ages might be so big...). So there's a big variability in the power of the cards if two or three are out, and you have to try to balance it for BOTH kinds of situations, which is just very difficult. Not impossible, maybe, but hard.

That's my worry as well.  I thought I'd throw the idea out there since it's a different take on an existing mechanic (tokens).  I think incorporating tokens allows for a much larger design space in which to get creative.  On the other hand, having 10 different kingdom cards all using their own token system would be rather ridiculous.  If someone could improve on the idea so that shared tokens WOULD be balanced in both situations, that could be rather neat.

As for the cards themselves, without sharing the tokens: I quite like Relic. A LOT. But I think it can cost 4 quite easily, even 3 really, possiblyeven 2. I'd start it at 2 (always start things the cheapest you can see them possibly being, and if they aren't broken...) and then work it up as needed. I mean, it is a terminal silver or terminal copper which you can use as a gold later.

Right now, I have it as a Treasure.  Because of this, it is strictly better than Silver, which is why I have it at $5 (similar to Venture, IGG).  As a terminal action, I can see $2 being a good price to start in testing.  It can become be used as more than Gold as well, if it builds up enough.

Abbot: Again, this seems weak. I would try immediately upping it to the full cost, which makes it like a delayed version of apprentice that's terminal. Hmm, that might be a touch too strong. But try it, it might not be. As is, it's terminal and does NOTHING for you for a while. Pretty darn slow...

What do you think of the "persistent power" that it adds?  Perhaps this card is no good, but maybe another card could use a similar idea?

Abbey: And this seems weakest of all. At 6, it's going to take a heckuva long time to get many tokens, and that's further exacerbated by having to play this terminal twice before you can get any of the benefits. It can explode at the end, I guess, which makes it a bit swingy, but I suspect that for most games, it's going to just be too slow to make much comeback by then. I'd try bumping it down to 5, but then you probably have to nerf it just a little. Take one of the options away, or limit the number of tokens you can take off, or something.

I think this is probably the card that gains the most benefit from having other "Relic" cards in the kingdom.  You can get the cheaper ones first and start building up tokens, and then pick up Abbey to make best use of the accumulated chips.  Definitely makes it hard to balance. 

Thanks for your thoughts!

I'm not sure if I should spend any time tweaking the ideas.  As I said, I'm not in a good position to actually test the ideas.  Really, I just wanted to share some new design ideas.

[WanderingWinder]

Somehow I missed that relic is a treasure. As a treasure, it's decent at 5. Probably not very strong, but look at your other $5 treasures and it's probably somewhere in the right range.
As for Abbot's "persistent power"... I'm not sure what you mean. That if it's in the kingdom, just from it being in the kingdom you can do stuff? I do not like that at all. That doesn't mean it's bad. Means I personally don't like it. If you mean that it has long-term benefits to you... well, maybe. But I don't think that that's so much true. I guess it helps you mega-turn a bit by choosing your spot to get a bunch of cards, but I doubt that that's really worth it, even over the long haul. Maybe if you can get a bunch of bridges and villages, you can use this to smack them all down at once or something. But seems sorta farfetched.