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[ednever]

Interesting game.

Both of us went for Golden Decks in completely different ways. Both of us succeeded in building it in exactly the same number of turns. And both of us had exactly the same number of VP when we did it.

We knew 4 turns in advance that the game would end on a tie - and I don't think there was anything either of us could do about it.

Is there? Here's the log:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/14/game-20120514-213034-a44c3e91.html

In general, what do you do when you have a golden deck and it looks like you are not going to win? Is there a way out where you have even a 1% chance of pulling something off?

Ed

[Davio]

In general, what do you do when you have a golden deck and it looks like you are not going to win? Is there a way out where you have even a 1% chance of pulling something off?

You could always start churning Golds for 4 (3+1 from Bishop) VP a pop.

The Golden Deck does two things: It scores VPs and ends the game in a predictable quick manner.

If you feel you're falling behind, you can always buy up other cards to churn into VPs. Obviously Gold is good candidate as it gives you 4VP, which is just 1 VP less than burning a Province. Peddler is the same as Province if it's available.

The $7s are the same as $6 with the rounding down.

[ecq]

Also note that if you set up a Golden Deck with Bishop + Gold + Gold + Silver + Province, you can convert to burning Golds while keeping the Province in-hand, which is a tiny VP boost.  It's not worth delaying the deck setup for, but it's a nice bonus if that's the situation you find yourself in.

[WanderingWinder]

Also note that if you set up a Golden Deck with Bishop + Gold + Gold + Silver + Province, you can convert to burning Golds while keeping the Province in-hand, which is a tiny VP boost.  It's not worth delaying the deck setup for, but it's a nice bonus if that's the situation you find yourself in.

Well, it's trading a turn of temp in ending the game for 4VP, basically. So if someone else is racing you but can't hit as reliably as you, you can switch to this for some turns to lock the game down.
However, in a Golden deck v golden deck scenario, they can just do the same thing. That just makes the game go like 13 turns longer.

[Deadlock39]

Actually... more than 13 turns longer, but unless I have made a mistake, T9D can win this game by drawing it out.

It gets increasingly complicated as you start figuring out the best choices for each player, but there are more optimal options than just playing for the tie.  The 9th Doctor has the upper hand here because he is 1st player.

Consider the start of The 9th Doctor's 15th turn.

At this point, the score is tied 32-32 and there are 2 Provinces remaining.  The Doctor can Trash a Festival and Buy a Gold instead of Trashing the Province and Buying a Province.  The score would then be 35-32 in favor of the Doctor.  Now this prevents Ed from being able to buy the second to last province without losing, so he has to Trash a Gold and buy a Gold.  This makes the score 35-36. Now each player can continue running the Golds as it is their best option for scoring points.

At the end of the game, Ed had 1 Gold, The 9th Doctor had 2, and there was one in the Trash, after the two purchased as described above, there are 24 Golds remaining in the pile.  Each player can purchase and Trash 12 of them for 48 more VP.  At the end of the 27th turn, the score would be 83-84 in Favor of Ed.

Now Neither player can sacrifice their position to be able to buy a Province or the other player can just take the last two to win.  On turn 28, both players can now Bishop a Gold and buy a Festival (87-88).  Now, with 6 Festivals remaining, and 9 (one in the Trash) Merchant Ships remaining, with 2 Festivals, The 9th Doctor can Trash a Festival and buy a Merchant Ship, but Ed must Trash a Festival and buy a Festival to maintain the ability to purchase a Province. 

After 6 more turns gaining 3VP each, the Festivals will run out. (End of turn 34, 105-106) On turn 35, T9D can again, Trash a MS and purchase a MS.  Ed's only option now is to trash his Silver and purchase either a Silver, a MS, or a Navigator to avoid losing his ability to buy a Province.  Trashing the Silver causes Ed to lose his current one VP advantage.  Buying the Second to last MS would give T9D the game, and the Silver would continue to lose him points, so he needs to grab the Navigator.  The score is now 108-108, and there are 2 Merchant Ships, and 9 Navigators remaining entering turn 36. Now T9D doesn't want to buy the 2nd to last MS because this would give Ed the tie, so he moves to Navigators too.  3 more turns of buying Navigators gets us to a score of 117-117 at the start of turn 39 with 3 Navigators remaining.  T9D can again buy a Navigator, but Ed cannot as it will again let T9D end the game on Piles.  Ed's only Choice is to purchase another Silver. 

At the end of the 39th turn, it is 120-120, and the Decks are now:
T9D:Bishop/Festival/Navigator/Gold/Province
Ed:Bishop/Festival/Silver/Gold/Province

On Turn 40, T9D will Bishop the Navigator and Purchase a Silver.  The score is now 123-120.  Ed can Bishop his Festival and purchase a Silver to keep up for one more turn.  (123-123)  T9D can follow Suit on Turn 41 to take the lead 126-123.  (This cuts both players off from the option of purchasing Navigators and Merchant Ships.  I don't think this has an effect, but am not sure if I am missing an option.)  Ed is now trapped.  Down by 3 points, his only option remaining that leaves him enough cash to purchase a Province, is to Bishop a Silver and buy a Silver.  This leaves him down 126-125 at the end of the of the 41st turn, allowing T9D to Purchase the penultimate Province, and finish out the game with a win.


Please correct me if I figured anything incorrectly here.  It would seem the odd number of cards in the Merchant Ship pile is actually extremely important in allowing T9D to hold onto his upper hand.   If not for that, because of his lower value Festivals, he may have needed to play for the tie.

I am also not 100% sure there isn't the possibility for some Embargo shenanigans with the extra Festival buys, but I don't think it is optimal for T9D, and I don't think Ed could do it without giving T9D an opening to grab the penultimate Province.

[Ozle]

Anyone else find the irony funny that the way to win and not tie was posted by a played named Deadlock?

[Rabid]

Am I missing something or could you have not played bishop on the last turn?
And won by 1 VP?

   — ednever's turn 15 —
   ednever plays a Bishop.
   ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
   ... ednever trashes a Province and gets +4 ▼.
   ... The 9th Doctor trashes nothing.
   ednever plays a Silver and 2 Golds.
   ednever buys a Province.
   (ednever reshuffles.)
   (ednever draws: a Silver, a Province, a Bishop, and 2 Golds.)

[greatexpectations]

Am I missing something or could you have not played bishop on the last turn?
And won by 1 VP?

i am pretty sure Rabid is correct

[Deadlock39]

That is absolutely correct...

I wonder if that effects the way the game would play out in the scenario I outlined?  At the end, Ed is forced to trash down to a state where he only has $7 without the Bishop instead of $8, so the trick doesn't work at that point.  He is never losing by 1 point or less on his turn, so I don't think he can ever safely grab the penultimate Province after T9D passes it up either.

[nightdance]

This is really funny. Guess that answers ednever's question of how to win. 

[Galzria]

Sometimes even the most experienced players make the simplest mistakes. That's funny. Can this thread go in the Razzie awards nomination for best moments of 2012?

[ednever]

That definitely answers my question. Maybe this should be cross posted in the 'how to avoid autopilot' thread.

I struggled with figuring out how to win four turns before the end. When I couldn't figure out a way I resigned myself to the tie and then just went through the motions. I had been playing the bishop every turn, it was just automatic...

Ah well. I won't make that mistake again.

Ed

[paddyodoors]

That definitely answers my question. Maybe this should be cross posted in the 'how to avoid autopilot' thread.

I struggled with figuring out how to win four turns before the end. When I couldn't figure out a way I resigned myself to the tie and then just went through the motions. I had been playing the bishop every turn, it was just automatic...

Ah well. I won't make that mistake again.

Ed

In your defense, when I go for "the" golden deck, it is rarely with two golds and a silver.  I usually only have one gold paired with two silvers, relying on that extra $1 from playing Bishop.  In that case, the best outcome would be to get a tie, as you did.

The advantages to the B-G-S-S-P vs B-G-G-S-P is that it sets up and gets churning more quickly.  The disadvantages are that it a) does not have the option to "trash gold + buy gold" and b) does not have the ability to buy another province without trashing the one in hand.

[Axxle]

Even with B-G-S-S-P though, you have the option to trash a silver and buy a gold to get B-G-G-S-P, although that's a turn more in setup that you may not have.

[gorgonstar]

Pretty interesting analysis by deadlock.  If Ed were the first player, then it would be a fairly simple decision for him to trash a gold and buy a gold, instead of trashing a province to buy a province.  The reason is he has the option to buy a province later.  His opponent could only trash a festival for one less VP.  So even though they both have golden decks, the composition of the deck is really important.

[olneyce]

Yeah, interesting game.  We both just assumed it was a tie, laughed about it, and accepted.  Sounds like there were options for either of us to win if we had just thought about it a bit more.

[gorgonstar]

Is bishop/embargo better than bishop/silver for making the golden deck?  The embargo trashes itself after you use it, so that's one less card for you to trash.  Or is embargoing the embassies really important?  Would an embassy fueled deck be able to beat the golden deck?

[Deadlock39]

An Embassy fueled deck, plus an Embargo on the Provinces would probably completely shut out the possibility of a golden deck, but baring a lucky Mint, the golden deck is probably not viable unless both players are playing Bishop anyway.

[WanderingWinder]

By the way, it's this kind of analysis that has me convinced that first player generally has a rather big advantage in golden deck mirrors.