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ChocophileBenj

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Just some fan cards
« on: May 13, 2012, 11:34:33 am »
+3

Yeah, let's give some cards and use some ideas which were (maybe) not used yet !

-Ninja-
Action, cost $4
+1 action, +1 buy
On the beginning of your buying phase, you may convert up to 2 of your extra buys for $2 each.

Have you ever been frustated of having lots of extra buys without the possibility of using them ? This card may provide a good way of recycling them. Works better with several markets and diplomats (see below) IMO.


-Illusionnist-
Action-attack, cost $6
All your opponents reveal the 2 top cards of their deck. They trash one you choose, discard the other one, and gain a card of your choice of the cost of the trashed card.

Swindler hitting two cards instead of one. Its price was first $5 but it looked very powerful to me. And fairer than swindler, too, because on the beginning you have more possibilities to inflict copper->curse to your opponents and afterwards... choosing among two action cards which one they lose, or even doubling the possibility to destroy their duchies ?


-Forgotten village-
Action, cost $4
+1 card, +2 actions
Trash or discard a card from your hand.

I was looking for a village too... stronger at the beginning, but that you might "forget" afterwards. First was only the trash option, but I didnt want to make it too weak and added the discard option. (it should be terrible with tunnel).
Of course, if you have duchies or provinces in hand it wont be a problem, but if you play several forgotten villages so you need several of those cards.


-Diplomat-
Treasaure, cost $5
+1 buy, all cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0

Yes, simply a treasure version of bridge without 1$... so ready to buy it, or not ?


-Mountain passage-
Action, cost $5
Choose one type of cards : action or treasaure
If you have chosen action, then +1 action ; treasure, then +1$.
Reveal the three top cards of your deck : draw the cards of the chosen type, discard the others.

First, it was only with treasure but with more cards and without the +1$, but I wanted something more original...


-Vandal-
Action attack, cost $3
+2 cards, all your opponents with 5 cards or more in hand reveal a card from their hand and they either discard it or put it on their deck, your choice.

I wanted an attack that does that. But it could be broken if played several times, so the difficulty was how to well balance it. So I changed the "+1 action" (it was first non terminal) and so into "+2 cards"


-Flood-
Action attack, cost $4
+1 action
+1$
All your opponents choose one : gaining a copper, putting it on top on their deck, or gaining a curse card.

A "torturer-like", unlike the previous card, I don't want to make it terminal, I don't really know what should come with the +1 action and if $4 is the right price.


-Soldier-
Victory card, cost $2
0 VP
The player with the most soldiers at the end in his deck gains 3 VP if he has only one more soldier than the second, 6 VP if he has more. If there is a tie, all concerned players gain 3 VP.

An idea of victory card costing as much as estates... I think I needed the idea of "3 VP if only one more than the second", to avoid unfairness of "the player who buys the last province who also buys the only soldier in this game".


This list might be completed, as I might have other ideas i'm not thinking to right now.
Of course, please leave your opinions about the name, the cost and the strength of those cards. See you soon !
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 11:42:13 am by ChocophileBenj »
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Tables

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2012, 12:26:09 pm »
+1

Ninja is too powerful, cantrip silver with a big bonus. Perhaps if it was convert 2 buys into $1 (possibly 1-1 ratio, but that's probably too powerful still), it'd be okay, but as written, it's too powerful.

Illusionist: Hmm... it needs it's wording cleaned up (I thought it was an everyone trashes, you gain a card after the first reading), but looks alright. Probably too weak, Swindler gives you $2, this doesn't.

Forgotten village: Looks weaker than normal village, for more money. Trashing is a bonus, but mandatory trashing or discarding is a penalty. And by the time you want a village (not early), I expect this would be mostly penalty. Still, early on it's at least cantrip trashing, which might well be worth it.

Diplomat: Bridge with an action instead of a coin. A halfway house between Highway and Bridge. Eh.

Mountain Passage: Ooh, that does sound pretty interesting. Perhaps put the other cards back on top to be more like fixed viewing sifters (Scout, Apothecary)? Still, I'd be interested in trying this.

Vandal: It sounds good. Perhaps +$2 instead of +2 cards ($2 with a bonus is the more standard card, it depends on power though, as +2 cards is a little weaker on a terminal).

Flood: Again, perhaps +$2 instead of +1 action, +$1. It sounds... too strong as an attack with +1 action, +$1, as spamming these will flood your opponents deck (pun very much intended) too quickly. I don't think I'd really ever want to take the curse unless they're likely to run out. But... maybe. Hmm. Interesting card.

Soldier: Hmm... not really sure about this one. It sounds very slippery slope (say in a 3p game someone gets a lead of two of them. Nobody else wants to invest in them since it's wasted time and money, so the person with the small lead of them gets two cheap Duchies essentially.
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qmech

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2012, 01:37:54 pm »
0

I'll just comment on a few of these.

Ninja: buys are worth less than $2, so this is a little strong.  Think about what it does to any of the cantrip +Buy cards.

Forgotten Village: I disagree with Tables here: I think this is stronger than the normal village, and would frequently open with it just for the cantrip trashing.  The discarding also interacts nicely with things like Library and Menagerie.

Diplomat: It's comparable to +1 Action, +1 Buy, cost reduction, which I think would be stronger than Bridge or Highway as you could mass them without fear of collision and have a self-contained gaining engine.  Something like Smithy/Diplomat would be very strong.

Vandal: The way you've worded it the attack doesn't stack, so you don't need to worry about them being played in multiples.  A very good BM enabler.  Is $3 too cheap for a discard attack?
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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2012, 02:36:12 pm »
0

Vandal: The way you've worded it the attack doesn't stack, so you don't need to worry about them being played in multiples.  A very good BM enabler.  Is $3 too cheap for a discard attack?
I would say yes. I actually came up with this exact card independently when designing cards myself, including the +2 Cards and the wording about only people with 5 cards or more. But, I have it priced at $5. It should at least be $4. If you compare this with Ghost Ship, which can be one of the strongest non-cursing attacks in the game, this card is very similar. Consider that with Ghost Ship, you can decide what cards to put on your deck, meaning you can forgo this turn for a good next turn. So, I'd recommend $5, but $4 may work.
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O

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2012, 02:45:07 pm »
0

Conceptually I love Illusionist, but it's probably OK at 5$, or with a small bonus at 6$.

Ninja seems actually rather balanced with the 2-buys limit, but in games without other sources of +buy or a use for dissapearing silver, it's near-degenerate same as silver (OK, not *completely* since you can always use it for the +1buy..)

Forgotten Village can probably be priced at 3$, but its a fine and interesting card as is (variants of the current version are very likely broken though).

I LOVE the idea of Vandal  :P. It seems like it's strategically a very complex card to interact with. It might need to be priced at 4$, comparing it's attack to Oracle's.

Flood should ideally have some benefit to the "gaining a curse option" to bring two options closer to each other in desirability. Something like "if they gain a curse, they may discard a card from their hand and draw a card".

Mountain Passage seems like you're either going to take it in a big-money (buy-money-and-very-few-actions) game and use the money option, or an engine game and use the +actions. Hard to see when you'd use both in the same game.

Diplomat can be 4$.

Soldier is the only card I don't like.. it adds an edge of politics to the game.


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Rabid

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2012, 03:06:10 pm »
+1

Isn't forgotten village way better the lookout?
Both leave you with a 4 card hand.
But this lets you trash or discard from 5 cards, rather than forced trash from 3.
And you get an extra action as well.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2012, 07:35:24 pm »
0

Thanks for your opinions !
After hours of playing tonight (yes, it's 1.30 am in France) i think forgotten village is way too strong when you already know lookout. Maybe should it be priced at $5 ? (and it gives the idea of "forgotten"->"precious")
And yes, flood looks too strong with the $1, but I really loved the +1 action. And yes, the pun was intended ^^ !
The price of the vandal... well, maybe $4 is better when you know the terrifying Ghost ship !

That's the first ideas I would come back on. But I know there are many other things to improve...
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DStu

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2012, 05:53:21 am »
0

I don't believe in Forgotten Village at $5. If it's too strong at $4, maybe make it:
"You may trash a card from your hand"

to get it a little bit weaker (no discard->no combo with Menagerie et.al.) but it's still not a problem to play it in the mid/endgame. The other $4-villages also have situations where the bonus is almost non-existent.
Just with the Villages it will take some turns until you cleaned all your Copper, and Forgotten Village still has good defence against cursers after that start, a Walled Village usually does nothing for an engine, a Farming Village does nothing in the mid-game when you can trash the Estates, and the Mining Village usually does nothing until the last turn.
So if you can use it to clean your deck on the fly, that might be enough to justify the $4.

Edit: Compared to Lookout: Lookout is $4 not $3, and is not really considered as the strongest $3, so if it's stronger, it's stronger...
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LastFootnote

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2012, 09:08:39 am »
0

I don't believe in Forgotten Village at $5. If it's too strong at $4, maybe make it:
"You may trash a card from your hand"

to get it a little bit weaker (no discard->no combo with Menagerie et.al.) but it's still not a problem to play it in the mid/endgame. The other $4-villages also have situations where the bonus is almost non-existent.
Just with the Villages it will take some turns until you cleaned all your Copper, and Forgotten Village still has good defence against cursers after that start, a Walled Village usually does nothing for an engine, a Farming Village does nothing in the mid-game when you can trash the Estates, and the Mining Village usually does nothing until the last turn.
So if you can use it to clean your deck on the fly, that might be enough to justify the $4.

Edit: Compared to Lookout: Lookout is $4 not $3, and is not really considered as the strongest $3, so if it's stronger, it's stronger...

I strongly disagree with all this. First of all, removing the discard makes it way stronger, not weaker. Sure, the discard makes it better in games with Menagerie, Tunnel, etc., but those games are the exception, not the rule. On average, a village always that leaves you with one less card in your hand after being played is far worse than one that lets you break even.

Second, it's not going to take very long to clear out your Coppers/Estates/Curses at all, especially if you buy several of these, which at $4, you could and probably would. It's not often you buy a single village, especially if you're building an engine. And why wouldn't you build an engine with such a ridiculously good non-terminal trasher available?

Third, with your suggested change, it's not just better than Lookout, it's worlds better than Lookout. I'd say it'd be better than Upgrade, even if you priced it at $5. With Upgrade, you also draw and trash a card, but the trashing is mandatory. If Upgrade draws you a Copper into your hand of Province, Gold, Silver, Silver and you really need that Province, you're going to have to trash that Copper anyhow and buy a Duchy. Not so with this card. Sure, Upgrade gives you $3 cards for Estates and occasionally is used for late-game trashing, but Forgotten Village gives you an extra Action as well.
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DStu

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2012, 09:29:58 am »
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I strongly disagree with all this. First of all, removing the discard makes it way stronger, not weaker. Sure, the discard makes it better in games with Menagerie, Tunnel, etc., but those games are the exception, not the rule. On average, a village always that leaves you with one less card in your hand after being played is far worse than one that lets you break even.
right

Quote
Second, it's not going to take very long to clear out your Coppers/Estates/Curses at all, especially if you buy several of these, which at $4, you could and probably would. It's not often you buy a single village, especially if you're building an engine. And why wouldn't you build an engine with such a ridiculously good non-terminal trasher available?

Third, with your suggested change, it's not just better than Lookout, it's worlds better than Lookout. I'd say it'd be better than Upgrade, even if you priced it at $5. With Upgrade, you also draw and trash a card, but the trashing is mandatory. If Upgrade draws you a Copper into your hand of Province, Gold, Silver, Silver and you really need that Province, you're going to have to trash that Copper anyhow and buy a Duchy. Not so with this card. Sure, Upgrade gives you $3 cards for Estates and occasionally is used for late-game trashing, but Forgotten Village gives you an extra Action as well.
I thought on Upgrade also, but you have to give it more credit for gaining cards. Estates->Silver and the occasional endgame Duchy doesn't justify $5 for Upgrade. And I don't really see me building an engine where the Village costs $5 and decreases handsize. Inn is kind of like that, and it has an additional on-buy to compensate, and I don't really like building engines with Inn as Village.
You have guaranteed trashing here, that's right, and you will also have trashed the trash till the endgame, but it will take some time. One Village first shuffle, maybe two the second, that's 4 plays till something like turn 7.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2012, 10:52:15 am »
+1

I will admit that the comparison to Upgrade is not a great one. I'll also agree that building an engine with $5 villages is no cakewalk.

Let's break it down this way. Here's your (DStu's) suggested version of the card:

Forgotten Village
Types: Action
Cost: $?
+1 Card. +2 Actions. You may trash a card from your hand.

You claim that at $5, it's not cheap enough to be a good engine component. I claim that at $4, it's far too powerful as a deck thinner. It's possible that we're both right and that this version of the card won't work at any cost. So let's rewind past your suggestion and go back to the version of the card where you have to either trash or discard.

Forgotten Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions. Trash or discard a card from your hand.

Benj has already told us that even this version of the card is too strong. I agree that costing it at $5 is probably not the best fix. How about this:

Forgotten Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions. Discard a card from your hand. You may trash a card from your hand.


EDIT: By the way, Benj, put me on the list of people who love Vandal. It's very clever. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually saw an official card with the same attack effect.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 10:54:19 am by LastFootnote »
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2012, 06:47:10 pm »
0

Okay, thanks you all.
Let's come back on my cards (there will be many question marks, because i'm asking you) :

Ninja : it seems too powerful ? Yeah, I didn't realize enough how much non-terminal actions that give $2 are better than silvers ! So what about : cost $4, +1 action, +1 buy, +$1, possibility to give up to up to 2 buys for $1 each ?

Forgotten Village : I love Lastfootnote's third idea ; I already had an idea of "discard then trash" but didn't know where to put it. Then, the question of pricing seems solved, because it's mostly a bad village in good engines (except if tunnel, library, blablabla...)... or what about a +1 card, +2 actions and mandatory trashing, so you're forced to begin trash silvers when you're out of coppers/estates ?

Illusionist : I still love this swindling attack, but it's true that Sea Hag is already "powerful except if opponent defends" for a $4, so lowering this to $4 ?

Diplomat : Don't know how to change it... but when I see the nasty comboes allowed by TR/KC bridges, I would find unfair not to decline it to a treasure version.

Mountain Passage : It seems fit to all games : big money, and engines ! But do you think +$1 is strong enough if you choose treasures ?

Vandal : Another mis-priced attack, but which you seem to love (it has so many fans someone even tried to redesign it ^^) and I love it too ! Maybe raising its cost to $4 ?

Flood : So... terminal or not terminal ?

Soldier : Uhhh... I don't know yet what to do about this !


And then, two new ideas of cards, to defend against attacks, or something else...

-Mysterious spring-
Treasure reaction, cost $?*
Worth $1 ; At any time during an opponent's turn, you may reveal this card and put it back on your deck.
This card costs $2 to buy or gain, but its price is raised to $6 when owned by anybody.

Kind of peddler, weaker because you must buy it at $2, can "sell" it at only $6... stronger because you may use it either to defend against attacks (this damn Swind first, but also Jester, Saboteur, Minion...) or just wait to make it collide with a remodel/bishop/anything... but you draw one fewer card, so beware ! Then, find coins and buys to get them !
Unlike Peddler, I wanted a question mark in the price because I didn't know whether i should either put a $2 or $6 in it !
And the "during an opponent's turn" means you can't decide during your turn whether to put back on your deck or not.


-Deep Shelter- (Name directly inspirated from Helm's Deep in the Lord of Rings !!!)
Cost $4
Victory reaction
Worth 2 VP
When an opponent plays an attack, you may reveal this from your hand. You may reveal only one Mountain Shelter per attack. If you do, he may discard 2 cards, otherwise you're unaffected by the attack.

I really love the thema : when everybody is in the shelter, your opponent must choose one : either he takes your shelter by force, or he gives up attacking you !
If we forget tunnel/menagerie situations in which "discarding is good -I mean not only undisturbing, but good-", it might be a nice gameplay component. And texted like this, it prevents abuses if he has one or zero card in hand. And the possibility of you revealing moat/watchtower after having revealed deep shelter and after he decided to discard might be fun, don't you think so ?
And as a victory card, it might mean rush to buy'em, much more than moat... or sometimes not !


Comments are open !
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eHalcyon

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2012, 07:59:11 pm »
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Mysterious Spring is interesting for the remodel shenanigans.  The reaction should only let you reveal against Attacks or else it would be really terrible to play with, especially on isotropic.  I don't see many cases where the reaction is useful.  Swindler.  Saboteur, maybe (more so if there are good $4s).  Other than that... eh.  Secret Chamber does something similar, but with more flexibility and no decrease in hand size.

Deep Shelter -- how does it work in multiplayer games?  Would the attacker have to discard 2 cards per person to attack?
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Just some fan cards
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2012, 05:59:51 pm »
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Mysterious Spring has become my Mountain lake, so forget !
Deep shelter : In multiplayer games ? ... I forgot about this first (like I forgot my own topic) but I think yes, the attacker would discard 2 for each at 3p or more. Maybe one card instead of two, but it would need what I hate most when designing a card... wording !
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