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GendoIkari

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Asynchronous play
« on: May 08, 2012, 03:47:43 pm »
+1

So this BGG thread about the official app turned eventually to discussion on asynchronous play. Curious what the opinions of people around here are.

I for one would most likely never consider playing Dominion asynchronously, and I was quite surprised to hear so many people at BGG complaining that a web interface would not allow for asynchronous play. Dominion is a fast game. On Isotropic, you can play a game in 5 minutes, easy. If it's a slow board, it might take 15 minutes. To take a game that's that fast and expand it out over a long period of time doesn't seem fun at all.

I think the main thing for me is that most individual turns of Dominion aren't fun. I don't get any personal enjoyment out of clicking "+$3" followed by "Silver." Even later in the game, the very act of clicking "+$8" followed by "Province" isn't in itself fun. The fun in Dominion comes from stringing all these turns together; to build up a deck and then get to play it. If you took 1 turn every few minutes, which could end up being every few hours depending on your opponent, I can't imagine enjoying that. Of course, some turns are different; sometimes if you have a Scrying Pool / Grand Market / King's Court thing going, an individual turn can be awesome. But that's not the norm.

And then there's the issue of reactions. That fun turn I just talked about with SP + GM + KC? Not quite so fun if your opponent happens to have a Moat in hand, and you have to wait who knows how long each time you play a Scrying Pool. That one turn alone could easily take a whole day if your opponent is just checking in every once in a while.
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jsh357

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2012, 03:54:09 pm »
+2

Never, never, never.  Torturer/Secret Chamber games are bad enough on Isotropic.  The people saying they want it have obviously never played a game where it would be annoying.  Now, if you had the ability to set automatic responses to certain events, I could maybe see it, but even then I don't think there are too many reactions you would pick the same way every time.  Discarding to Margrave is a perfect example.
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 03:56:05 pm »
+3

I don't think you're going to get much argument from the people on this board, most of which are fairly skilled players and understand how awful an asynchronous version would be.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 04:02:40 pm »
+4

I don't think you're going to get much argument from the people on this board, most of which are fairly skilled players and understand how awful an asynchronous version would be.

But haven't you heard? If you limit it to only the base set cards, and take out Militia, and change the rules of Moat and Bureaucrat so that they get automatically resolved, then you don't have these problems! Fun games for everyone!
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Kuildeous

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2012, 04:03:42 pm »
0

Not to mention that games would suck. If I'm playing five different games at once, how do I keep track? In this game, was I going to big money? Will I screw things up if I buy an action card? Great, I know from my opponent's Spy that I have an Estate on top. That'll go great with my Highway and Baron. Oops, 2 days later I forgot what was on top of my deck and choose to discard Baron to a Militia.

Just a dreadful concept. If I were designing the app, I wouldn't put much effort into it. I suppose if it's no big deal, sure, go ahead and introduce it. I will not be one of the customers to take advantage of it. Dreadful!
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2012, 04:05:01 pm »
+1

But haven't you heard? If you limit it to only the base set cards, and take out Militia, and change the rules of Moat and Bureaucrat so that they get automatically resolved, then you don't have these problems! Fun games for everyone!
Also, if you take out the ability to return serve from tennis, you can play that asynchronously as well! I bet John Isner and Nicolas Mahut would go for that!
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blueblimp

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2012, 04:09:16 pm »
0

I think async would be bad, but I'll play devil's advocate.

Even in a game with competing Torturer chains and Moats, the number of times you need to reveal a Moat during your turn is only going to be around 5. That's not entirely unreasonable, since it won't happen every turn. Sure, there are even worse situations if you're KC'ing Spies or something like that, but such games are fairly rare. No need to give up async because of those <1% of games where it's unusable.

Also, async can be thought of as a sort of auto-save. Auto-save is good. If both players are willing to accept that one player might need to take a break and resume the game later, that seems fine.

Finally, async play might ban certain cards so that you never need to make a decision during your opponent's turn. Granted, this rules out many interesting kingdoms, but there are still plenty of interesting kingdoms left. Playing with restricted kingdoms is still real Dominion, since the rules of the game specify you may choose kingdoms in whatever manner both players agree to.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 04:14:29 pm by blueblimp »
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Grujah

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2012, 04:25:45 pm »
0

To me its funny that its such a high demand for such a .. unlogical feature.  ;D
I personally do not and will not use Apple products, but I guess they kinda used to having this?

Ok, I understand somebody would like to "save and resume later" sometimes, especially if you get tedious cursing/scrying pool or similar long game (had that happen today actually), but to play the whole game async.. whoah. Why? :o
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 07:29:23 pm by Grujah »
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2012, 04:53:44 pm »
0

Sure, a game save feature would be useful. But all players would have to agree. Otherwise a losing player could simply 'take a break', never returning to the game.
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ycz6

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2012, 05:34:32 pm »
0

Sure, a game save feature would be useful. But all players would have to agree. Otherwise a losing player could simply 'take a break', never returning to the game.
That's true. It also happens all the time in Words With Friends, and the like.
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2012, 05:41:47 pm »
+1

I'm obviously too tired, I read this as synchornus play and thought it would be peoeple all playing thier own turns at once, which sounded like fun!

"Yeah you have played a mega Engine chain turn, but while you were faffing about drawing your entire deck I just bought the last two provinces."
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2012, 05:44:43 pm »
0

I'm obviously too tired, I read this as synchornus play and thought it would be peoeple all playing thier own turns at once, which sounded like fun!

"Yeah you have played a mega Engine chain turn, but while you were faffing about drawing your entire deck I just bought the last two provinces."

O_o
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Axxle

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2012, 05:57:20 pm »
0

Asynchronous play might be a terrible way to play the game.  However people want to play asynchronously nonetheless.  I don't presume to tell people what they will or will not enjoy.  There are plenty of people on mobile devices that can't or won't put in 5-15 minutes necessary to play the game in one sitting.  Isotropic users aren't the only target audience.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2012, 06:11:27 pm »
0

I'm obviously too tired, I read this as synchornus play and thought it would be peoeple all playing thier own turns at once, which sounded like fun!

"Yeah you have played a mega Engine chain turn, but while you were faffing about drawing your entire deck I just bought the last two provinces."

More like, you just drew your whole deck?  I just played Militia, discard down to 3. ;D

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2012, 06:15:00 pm »
0

I think that Async should be included, but that you should have to definitively say you want Async first. Async is invaluable but I would only play it with friends and only with certain kingdom sets. Mostly I would just ignore it and want instant play.

Another thing that did come up on BGG that is relevant is I 100% require offline play against AI, and perhaps solo might be nice, though I doubt the new app will have a solo mode as its not in the official rules. I dont want to have to use my 3G/Wifi when im out and about and want a quick game of dominion while waiting for a haircut/seating at a restaurant/movie/etc

EDIT: I think asycn should be there but that you shouldn't be forced into it online, way to easy for people to just not pay attention to a game and well thats no fun
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2012, 06:15:35 pm »
0

I'm obviously too tired, I read this as synchornus play and thought it would be peoeple all playing thier own turns at once, which sounded like fun!

"Yeah you have played a mega Engine chain turn, but while you were faffing about drawing your entire deck I just bought the last two provinces."

More like, you just drew your whole deck?  I just played Militia, discard down to 3. ;D

Yeah, that would require exquisite timing I would imagine as in my mind it would happen instantly you played it, so make sure they were not just about to draw cards from Lab or some such.

(I know of course in reality this style wont work, but it seems fun in my head! Its not the best deck that wins, its the fastest!)
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2012, 06:22:46 pm »
0

I'm obviously too tired, I read this as synchornus play and thought it would be peoeple all playing thier own turns at once, which sounded like fun!

"Yeah you have played a mega Engine chain turn, but while you were faffing about drawing your entire deck I just bought the last two provinces."

More like, you just drew your whole deck?  I just played Militia, discard down to 3. ;D

Yeah, that would require exquisite timing I would imagine as in my mind it would happen instantly you played it, so make sure they were not just about to draw cards from Lab or some such.

(I know of course in reality this style wont work, but it seems fun in my head! Its not the best deck that wins, its the fastest!)

Yes, of course it won't actually work, but it sure would be hilarious.  I picture one player sitting in waiting with their Militia in Hand as the other player chains Village/Smithy, Scrying Pools, ect.

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2012, 06:45:36 pm »
0

Oh wow I cannot believe anyone actually thinks asynchronous play would be a good feature. I read that thread and it's clear that some of the people advocating the feature have never actually played Dominion and don't understand why it wouldn't work.

I cannot imagine having to wait, oh, possibly several hours just to get through a Minion chain or someone's KC'd Goons. There are enough cards that require interaction that it just wouldn't work.

It's annoying enough waiting for someone to finish their gigantic Scrying Pool/Lab/KC/Goons/etc. megaturn on Isotropic, and that's in real time!
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2012, 07:03:48 pm »
0

Oh wow I cannot believe anyone actually thinks asynchronous play would be a good feature. I read that thread and it's clear that some of the people advocating the feature have never actually played Dominion and don't understand why it wouldn't work.

I cannot imagine having to wait, oh, possibly several hours just to get through a Minion chain or someone's KC'd Goons. There are enough cards that require interaction that it just wouldn't work.

It's annoying enough waiting for someone to finish their gigantic Scrying Pool/Lab/KC/Goons/etc. megaturn on Isotropic, and that's in real time!
Umm.. you do realize what asynchronous means right?  You aren't waiting around for someone to do their megaturn, or any turn, you're doing something completely different (maybe even playing another 50 games of dominion) until you're notified that it's your turn again.  And if you're busy you can wait till you have free time to continue.  Also, no one is forcing anyone to play asynchronously, I would think (hope) that they'd have the option to play in real time too.
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2012, 07:11:56 pm »
0

Oh wow I cannot believe anyone actually thinks asynchronous play would be a good feature. I read that thread and it's clear that some of the people advocating the feature have never actually played Dominion and don't understand why it wouldn't work.

I cannot imagine having to wait, oh, possibly several hours just to get through a Minion chain or someone's KC'd Goons. There are enough cards that require interaction that it just wouldn't work.

It's annoying enough waiting for someone to finish their gigantic Scrying Pool/Lab/KC/Goons/etc. megaturn on Isotropic, and that's in real time!
Umm.. you do realize what asynchronous means right?  You aren't waiting around for someone to do their megaturn, or any turn, you're doing something completely different (maybe even playing another 50 games of dominion) until you're notified that it's your turn again.  And if you're busy you can wait till you have free time to continue.  Also, no one is forcing anyone to play asynchronously, I would think (hope) that they'd have the option to play in real time too.
I do know what it means. It means that as long as you don't have any reaction or attack cards at all, or any cards that require input from the other player in order to play (e.g. Contraband, Governor when using the remodel option, Tournament), it'll work fine.

The moment you introduce attack cards that require a choice from the player who isn't playing that turn (e.g. Militia, Saboteur) or any reaction cards at all, it falls apart because you could be waiting several minutes or even several hours for someone to click the "Reveal Moat" button. Or the "You Can't Buy Provinces With Your Contraband" button. Like I said, it's frustrating enough when I'm on Isotropic and the other player takes a long time to realize that I've played an attack that requires a response from him... I can only imagine how much worse it would be when you're playing asynchronously.

I play Words with Friends (or rather played, haven't done it in a while) and that game works asynchronously because each player does exactly one move and hands it back to the other player. Sometimes moves can take a while, but it's not the end of the world. Dominion is different.
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shMerker

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2012, 07:15:46 pm »
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I don't think anyone is really complaining about the mode so much as just questioning it's value.
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2012, 07:19:37 pm »
0


It's not inconceivable that you only allow asynchronous play with limited kingdom cards. There is still a ton of variety you could have even if you ban all attack/reaction cards.

This may not be "complete" Dominion, but it would still be Dominion. The rules say that a Kingdom may be chosen in any agreed upon fashion, and "attack/reaction free" is acceptable.

That said, I would not want games played in this fashion to be ranked on any semblance of a leaderboard, unless it had it's own.
Oh wow I cannot believe anyone actually thinks asynchronous play would be a good feature. I read that thread and it's clear that some of the people advocating the feature have never actually played Dominion and don't understand why it wouldn't work.

I cannot imagine having to wait, oh, possibly several hours just to get through a Minion chain or someone's KC'd Goons. There are enough cards that require interaction that it just wouldn't work.

It's annoying enough waiting for someone to finish their gigantic Scrying Pool/Lab/KC/Goons/etc. megaturn on Isotropic, and that's in real time!
Umm.. you do realize what asynchronous means right?  You aren't waiting around for someone to do their megaturn, or any turn, you're doing something completely different (maybe even playing another 50 games of dominion) until you're notified that it's your turn again.  And if you're busy you can wait till you have free time to continue.  Also, no one is forcing anyone to play asynchronously, I would think (hope) that they'd have the option to play in real time too.
I do know what it means. It means that as long as you don't have any reaction or attack cards at all, or any cards that require input from the other player in order to play (e.g. Contraband, Governor when using the remodel option, Tournament), it'll work fine.

The moment you introduce attack cards that require a choice from the player who isn't playing that turn (e.g. Militia, Saboteur) or any reaction cards at all, it falls apart because you could be waiting several minutes or even several hours for someone to click the "Reveal Moat" button. Or the "You Can't Buy Provinces With Your Contraband" button. Like I said, it's frustrating enough when I'm on Isotropic and the other player takes a long time to realize that I've played an attack that requires a response from him... I can only imagine how much worse it would be when you're playing asynchronously.

I play Words with Friends (or rather played, haven't done it in a while) and that game works asynchronously because each player does exactly one move and hands it back to the other player. Sometimes moves can take a while, but it's not the end of the world. Dominion is different.
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TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2012, 07:20:04 pm »
0

Oh wow I cannot believe anyone actually thinks asynchronous play would be a good feature. I read that thread and it's clear that some of the people advocating the feature have never actually played Dominion and don't understand why it wouldn't work.

I cannot imagine having to wait, oh, possibly several hours just to get through a Minion chain or someone's KC'd Goons. There are enough cards that require interaction that it just wouldn't work.

It's annoying enough waiting for someone to finish their gigantic Scrying Pool/Lab/KC/Goons/etc. megaturn on Isotropic, and that's in real time!
Umm.. you do realize what asynchronous means right?  You aren't waiting around for someone to do their megaturn, or any turn, you're doing something completely different (maybe even playing another 50 games of dominion) until you're notified that it's your turn again.  And if you're busy you can wait till you have free time to continue.  Also, no one is forcing anyone to play asynchronously, I would think (hope) that they'd have the option to play in real time too.
I do know what it means. It means that as long as you don't have any reaction or attack cards at all, or any cards that require input from the other player in order to play (e.g. Contraband, Governor when using the remodel option, Tournament), it'll work fine.

The moment you introduce attack cards that require a choice from the player who isn't playing that turn (e.g. Militia, Saboteur) or any reaction cards at all, it falls apart because you could be waiting several minutes or even several hours for someone to click the "Reveal Moat" button. Or the "You Can't Buy Provinces With Your Contraband" button. Like I said, it's frustrating enough when I'm on Isotropic and the other player takes a long time to realize that I've played an attack that requires a response from him... I can only imagine how much worse it would be when you're playing asynchronously.

I play Words with Friends (or rather played, haven't done it in a while) and that game works asynchronously because each player does exactly one move and hands it back to the other player. Sometimes moves can take a while, but it's not the end of the world. Dominion is different.
Most of my Words with Friends games take hours or days for my opponent to make a move.  I don't care in the slightest.  I think if Dominion had the option to be asynchronous and I could therefore play it with the people in my life who are busy or in different timezones and can't regularly have free time in sync with mine, it would add a huge benefit.
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2012, 08:10:23 pm »
+1

I play a few asynchronous games on Yucata and some work better than others. The ones that work best have discrete turns where a player make a few decisions, finish the turn, and pass the baton to someone else (like Oregon, Carcassone, Vikings, Can't Stop).  The least suited have many small decisions going from player to player (like Industrial waste, Stone Age). Another problem can be that you lose the flow of a game, especially one where you need to watch and remember what opponents are doing. Dominion immediately looks poorly suited on both those measures. Some kingdoms will play really well and some play really badly.


If you were marketing a new application there might nevertheless be some logic in selling online Dominion to the existing asynchronous games players, or offering Dominion as part of an online (subscription) package for a number of games.
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2012, 08:45:17 pm »
+2

Dominion and WWF are not remotely comprable. In WWF, I can have five different games going and will not get confused about game-state. Maybe, on occasion, I will foret that I have traded in some letters near the end of the game, and shouldn't do so again, but I thought there were logs to prevent that type f thing.

In Dominion, game state matters way too much. Five different games? Five different strategies to remember, and without complete logs of the game history (like what Iso used to offer), I would be lost. And if those logs were available? Well, I still wouldn't like it too much, but that's just for me. It's still too hard to figure out where I am in the reshuffle and what cards I have yet to see.

My two cents, at least.
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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2012, 08:57:49 pm »
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Dominion and WWF are not remotely comprable.
Complete hyperbole. 
Quote
In WWF, I can have five different games going and will not get confused about game-state. Maybe, on occasion, I will foret that I have traded in some letters near the end of the game, and shouldn't do so again, but I thought there were logs to prevent that type f thing.

In Dominion, game state matters way too much. Five different games? Five different strategies to remember, and without complete logs of the game history (like what Iso used to offer), I would be lost. And if those logs were available? Well, I still wouldn't like it too much, but that's just for me. It's still too hard to figure out where I am in the reshuffle and what cards I have yet to see.

My two cents, at least.
Valid.  If they would include game history and game state (ie how many cards are left in your deck like isotropic does) then there really isn't much of an issue here.  Sure you might forget what strategy you were planning, but you have DAYS to come up with a new one or remember it after looking at the game logs.  I personally would be fine with this as an option.  I don't know why people think "I won't use it, so don't bother with it." I'm not saying you're saying this, but other people are, and that just doesn't make sense.

And sometimes I do actually get confused about WWF game state.  I forget which words I placed and which words my opponents placed.  Did they fill up their tiles recently? In the end game how many tiles do they have left in their hand?  I still get by though.

And now I realize I don't really care what other people think the game should be.  I would hope that the game developers have done their market research and figured out what their audience wants.  Call me when we get more information, because that turned out so well this time.
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ftl

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2012, 09:05:03 pm »
0

Just curious - how are you envisioning stuff like Secret Chamber, Contraband, Torturer, and so on working in asynchronous play?

You mentioned having days to come up with a strategy, but that seems like it would be unworkably long for waiting for torturer discarding/curse taking and so on.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2012, 09:21:10 pm »
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I don't care about it, so I don't care if they were to do it or not. They did it? Great! Don't really care. They didn't? Great! Don't really care. Now, I doubt there are enough people who are enough interested in it to make it worth it for them to actually pursue this. But I could well be wrong.

Young Nick

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2012, 09:22:00 pm »
+3

For the record, I was stating that I, personally, would find it difficult, not that everyone would. I do imagine this would not be a popular way to play, though. Many here have said, Why not include it so that people who want it can have it? I say that this is fine in theory, but may turn people off from the entire game if they have a bad encounter with SC/Torturer. I want to save these non-Dominion addicts from themselves.

And yes, I do love hyperbole.
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Axxle

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2012, 09:24:26 pm »
0

Just curious - how are you envisioning stuff like Secret Chamber, Contraband, Torturer, and so on working in asynchronous play?

You mentioned having days to come up with a strategy, but that seems like it would be unworkably long for waiting for torturer discarding/curse taking and so on.
Yes, there will be very long games like that, but then you can just go on to another game in progress where maybe there isn't as much interaction.
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Axxle

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2012, 09:28:05 pm »
+1

For the record, I was stating that I, personally, would find it difficult, not that everyone would. I do imagine this would not be a popular way to play, though. Many here have said, Why not include it so that people who want it can have it? I say that this is fine in theory, but may turn people off from the entire game if they have a bad encounter with SC/Torturer. I want to save these non-Dominion addicts from themselves.

And yes, I do love hyperbole.
Best point I've seen so far.  Maybe they do need saving from themselves, maybe they don't.  I'd feel a lot more comfortable after doing some research, but whatever.
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DStu

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2012, 02:04:35 am »
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So there are 26 cards that require interaction of the opponent in your turn, if I didn't miscounted. Of course you could play Dominion without all Reaction, hand-size attacks and a few others, and by the rules it's still Dominion. But banning two entire types of card and 1/6 of the pool is somehow strange for an official variant.

Without banning them, you expect at least 1 of these cards to be in each kingdom (having none of them in a kingdom is something like 15%). Some of them are not really bad, Contraband isn't bought that often. Hand-size attacks usually only work once per turn, so you only double the turn length, but Scrying Pool/SC is really really bad.
But what seems unfitting for me is that I might have to wait in my turn. I should somehow be playable in one turn, and I shouldn't wait in the middle of it for 1 to infinity times just because I played a Militia, or because my chain consists of attacks and my opponent might reveal a reaction.

Of course one can try it, but I don't really see it feels natural, so I don't see how that should be priority when you implement the game.

Maybe it should be more important to do a native iOS-app first /scnr
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 02:07:01 am by DStu »
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Qvist

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Re: Asynchronous play
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2012, 04:47:57 am »
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I think I join in this discussion, just to leave my thoughts.

I think no-one disagrees that asynchronous Dominion is horrible. Just imagine a player plays a Torturer chain with Governor for cards and especially for trashing and buys a Province and I have a hand with Secret Chamber, Tunnel, Fool's Gold and Watchtower. Horrible!
But not everyone plays on a "high level" like us and know all the best moves, they just want to relax while sitting in the train. If there would be an option to choose the 10 kingdom cards (no Torturer, Govenor, Reaction cards, ...) and your opponent agrees with asynchronous play, I can understand that some (maybe me too) people would use that feature.
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