Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: Combo: Horse Traders/Library  (Read 9595 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1493
  • Respect: +676
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: Horse Traders/Library
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2011, 09:35:51 am »
0

I'm not discussing the other points made as I am not in a position to simulate/analyse deep enough at this moment in time, and I believe other people would be better at it than I would anyway. I am simply commenting on the point which I quoted.

If I am playing Masq/Masq vs Masq/Hag and I have 'cleaned my deck', I see no problems with playing a Masquerade to pass away my other one (although I'm sure there would be better things to pass away. Can you ever really get a deck THAT clean that your worst card is one of the best cards in the game?). If I did play a Masquerade and honestly found Masquerade to be the worst card in my hand after the +2 cards, I pass my Masquerade. You suggest that I receive a dead Sea Hag. Okay. I can now trash a card. Oh, hey, there's a dead Sea Hag in my hand which is definitely worse than all other cards in my hand (because just now my worst card was Masquerade). I'll trash that.

If my opponent played the Masquerade which ended up passing me the dead Sea Hag, then it's a different situation. But that's not the situation that was implied by what I quoted.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4386
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Combo: Horse Traders/Library
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2011, 10:24:01 am »
0

Yes but then they still masq their hag to you and now you have 1 less masq to get rid of it. This also assumes that you are able to get above their hag.

For example:

Masq/Masq has a higher probability of colliding turns 3/4 than Hag/Masq. What happens if you collid masq's and they dont' collide hag/masq. Their deck is now 7 coppers, 2 estates, masq and hag + whatever they bought.
Your deck is now 7 coppers, 2 estates, curse, masq, masq + whatever you bought.

If you collide again, and they don't (again you are still more likely to collide than them), you can fall even farther behind. What happens if next turn you collide again, they don't, and they get a walled villiage plus another masq? You are in big big trouble.

What are the probabilities of the game going this way? I'm not sure, but I'd bet it's VERY probable.

This situation is way too complex to fully understand without simulations.

This situation is way too complex to fully understand without GAMES. This is too complex for a sim like any we have right now. Fortunately, I (and I'm guessing many of the other top players playing it) HAVE actually played these games before. The masquerader wins. I'm not personally sure if the double masq does this better than the silver/masq, but I know the silver/masq does it.

Let's look at it logically though. You talk about concerns of terminal collision, but this is only SLIGHTLY more likely in double masq than masq/hag - on 3/4 the only hands where it's different are if masq is in your first 5 (and would have been hag) and another is in the 6th/7th card.
Another point you don't bring up is that Masq/Masq will reshuffle a lot faster. I'm not entirely sure who this helps.
But the big point is that you talk about the masq deck having less junk in it, so it will have less junk to pass. You say this like it's a huge problem for the masq player, but really it's a good thing. Trashing crap is good, right? So... not a problem in total. Also, where the hag player passes their hag, the masq player will eventually pass/trash a masq.
But look at it this way. You have a masq and a hag in hand. Which one do you want to play? ...the answer should usually be masquerade.

Now, I don't think this is like a huge slam dunk win for the masq-ing player, and going hag/masq is not ridiculous or anything. I just don't think it's as good.

ShuffleNCut

  • Coppersmith
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 46
  • Respect: +8
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: Horse Traders/Library
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2011, 10:26:21 am »
0

While MasqX2 may collide more often it also reshuffles more often.  Also, while Sea Hag is just as capable at giving the other guy a curse, Masq can give the curse back AND trash another useless card from deck.  Also, on a turn when you play Sea Hag you are essentially playing a four card card hand.  When you play Masquerade you are playing a six card hand (five if you choose to trash).  Because of the curse ping pong neither deck ever managed to trash all the way down to zero starting cards so the inability to play Masquerade in the mid/late game never occured.

Just out of curiosity I loaded the two opens into Geronimoo's Sim as the following:

Masq/Masq:
Buy Prov
Buy Dutchy if <6 Prov in supply
Buy Estate is <3 Prov in supply
Buy Gold
Buy Masq if <2 Masq in deck
Buy Silver

Masq/Hag:
Buy Prov
Buy Dutchy if <6 Prov in supply
Buy Estate is <3 Prov in supply
Buy Gold
Buy Hag if =0 Hag in deck
Buy Masq if =0 Masq in deck
Buy Silver

I ran both as 4:3 start and Masq/Masq won 85%.
Logged

livious

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: Horse Traders/Library
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2011, 11:00:42 am »
0

Masq/Masq plays actions both turns 3 and 4 exactly as often as Masq/Hag.  If you have a Masq turn 3, it's equally as likely that the other is card 11/12 in your first reshuffle and the +2 cards accelerates you into it turn 4 as it is that it was card 6/7 and you skip over it.  And M/M is getting better buys on average. 

Huh, I missed that SH gets more actions because of the case where Hag hits a Masq.  That reduces the buying power advantage a bit too when it hits copper.  Come to think of it without any villages SH will actually play more actions because of that and because SH never misses the reshuffle.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

Page created in 1.688 seconds with 20 queries.