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Author Topic: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary  (Read 4870 times)

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ednever

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May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« on: May 06, 2012, 02:11:57 pm »
+4

qmech and I played in the final of Rabid's one-day tournament. The final was to be decided by the first player to win 5 games.

After two hours of playing we were tied 4-4 and I had to push the final game to the next day.
The following day... well you can see below.

Below are all the game logs with commentary. Qmech will follow-up with his own commentary on the games. I think we both learned a TON from playing each other as we both seem to have very different strengths. Most of the games were decided by strategy, and those that weren't were decided by some significantly different tactics.

On the the commentary:

Game 1: Sometimes even Goons need the Green
Key Cards: Goons, Nobles, Inn, Remake, Horse Traders, Duke, Fairgrounds
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120505-152705-d159e2e4.html

Goons is my third-highest win rate given availability, so I was excited to see it here. The first thing I look for on a goons kingdom is whether there are +actions. In this case there were two options: Inn and Nobles. Both are not good options as they do not give you +cards. If the other player also goes Goons (and I assumed qmech would given how good a player he is) then you will be usually looking at 3 card hands. Without draw cards the best you can hope for is +2 actions, play goons, play goons. And your best buy scenario is $4 and 3 buys (but 6 VP if you use them all). If you use the buys then your drown your deck in copper. If you don't then you may run out of piles before you have enough VP to win.

But there were two more options on the board:
(1) Buy a lot of nobles and use them for actions AND draw. If you started with Goons, 2xNobles, you could end up with Goons + 3 cards. If that was Goons, Goons, Silver, Nobles - you could have $6 and 3 buys. Substantially better than $4 and 3 buys.
(2) Horse Traders. If you have a HT in hand when you get hit by Goons, you end up starting your turn with 4 cards - same scenario as #1, and it doesn't require a 2-card combo to get there

qmech saw the Horse Traders defense before I did, but I saw the importance of Nobles before he did (I think). Nobles also gives you that little bit of VP that reduces the need to pick up coppers and/or green and dilute your deck along the way. Which helps in setting up the mega turn (where the mega turn is when you manage somehow to play three Goons in the same turn, and use 4 buys to pick up 12 VP)

There are two other important cards:
(1) Remake: Which let us both dump our estates for silver, and get rid of some early coppers
(2) Inn: Both as a source of actions (given the lack of draw the same as a Noble played for actions most of the time), and as a way to manage your deck if you can pick it up right before re-shuffles (I've never payed so much attention to opponents reshuffles than in this game - unfortunately something you can't see from the logs)

For a full understanding, worth reading the entire log and watching the point totals. qmech pickes up the first goons and hits the first double-goons turn (he hits two more before my first one). He's also forced to buy a little more copper to stay on top (due to my purchases of Nobles). That additional copper (both forced and unforced) reduces his Goons ratio such that there are a few turns where he doesn't get to play one. On one of those turns I manage a Province.

Eventually the game comes down to both of us watching the piles and buying copper to stay far enough ahead (due to the danger of a mega-turn anytime you miss playing a Goons after the other guy had just bought an Inn). The game ends when I buy out three Estates to end on piles.


Series: 1-0 ednever

(Posting as I go along so I don't lose what I've written)
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ednever

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2012, 02:18:21 pm »
+1

Game 2: Throwing Tunnels out of the Warehouse and into the Colony
Key cards: Warehouse, Tunnel, Bridge (Colony Game)

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120505-154143-8d72f284.html

I know how to play Warehouse-Tunnel. It's almost an algorithm:
(1) Open Warehouse/Tunnel
(2) Buy Warehouse
(3) Buy Tunnel
(4) Buy Warehouse
(5) Buy any Tunnels that are left
(6) Buy Provinces before the Gold pile runs out

(Obviously you need to take into account +buy and +card options on the table)

I thought this game would be a straight rush. But qmech only picks up a single Tunnel.

It turns out a hand of Warehouse-Tunnel-Bridge-Gold--Gold is not so good in a Colony game. I ended up with 15 gold (after choosing not to reveal a few times because I was worried the Gold pile would run out), but never managed to draw more than $8 the entire game. Meanwhile qmech used his Tunnel'd Gold to pick up Platinums and then won the game the old fashioned way - by buying Colonies.

(Game ended on Province piles, because it was the only way I could get VP...)


Series tied: 1-1
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ednever

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2012, 02:24:01 pm »
+1

Game 3: Ill-Gotten Farmland
Key Cards: Ill Gotten Gains, Farmland

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120505-155023-6421c81d.html

One of the least interesting games. Basically a straight-up IGG rush with the added wrinkle of Farmland. I had first-player advantage so the game was mine to be lost (Anyone know what % of IGG-mirror rushes end with the 2nd player winning? I'll bet it's super low). I think if it's not a mirror the best choice is to ignore the Farmland. But in a mirror, you can use the Farmland for two things:
(1) If your hand can produce $8 while there are still IGG left (after using the extra coppers from IGG), then you can buy a Farmland and not play your silver. This lets you turn the silver into an IGG - effectively getting you an extra buy.
(2) With the handful of Farmlands you picked up you can convert them into provinces later in the game for +4 VP vs buying a duchy

Otherwise nothing exciting here.

Series: ednever up 2-1
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ednever

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2012, 02:32:30 pm »
+1

Game 4: Never ignore King's Court (even where there isn't good draw)
Key Cards: King's Court, Hunting Party, Border Village, Bank, Pawn, Fortune Teller

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120505-161028-7a4ea410.html

I looked at this kingdom and thought: "King's Court would be great, but there is no really good draw. And HP+$2 action decks can get going really fast and consistently..."

The plan was to have a deck that consisted of:
7 Copper
1 Silver
1 Fortune Teller (+$2)
1 Gold
1 Platinum
Lots of Hunting Parties

That should let me consistently draw $11+ every turn and buy a Colony.

I thought the trick here was not to buy the Border Village (since you don't need the extra actions and it would stop the HP from drawing something you would rather have). When qmech went BV->HP I thought I had him. Not even close.

He started King's Courting Hunting Parties to draw a ton of cards (Play two cards, draw 6 more - including at least another Hunting Party and King's Court). He wasn't able to consistently play King's Court on a King's Court, but it didn't matter. He could draw his deck with tons of actions, use the Pawns for extra buys and then play the Banks for tons of $$s.

On his final turn he just needed to buy a Colony. Instead he bought the Colony and four Provinces. He earned himself 5 "Goals" (including playing a Bank worth +$13, and playing more than 40 actions in one turn).


Series tied again 2-2
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ednever

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2012, 02:38:52 pm »
+1

Game 5: Jack hits the (silk) road
Key Cards: Jack of All Trade, Silk Road

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120505-162010-97f8d499.html

I'm more of an engine player than a BM player. I have an instinctual dislike for Jack of All Trades. Where I like him is when I can play him with Fishing Villages or Hamlets or other disappearing cards - basically treat him like a Watchtower or Library instead of using him to his full potential.

Recently I've been trying to use him is different rush strategies. The idea being - if you can play him enough you end up with a lot of silver. That may not be enough to buy a ton of provinces, but it should be enough to green extra-early.

When I saw Silk Roads I thought I could do that here. Basically pick up a couple of Jacks, DON'T trash estates, and then start buying duchies and silk roads right away (and more estates). I still think there is a way to make this work, but it didn't happen this game. Qmech's more traditional strategy of trashing the initial Estates let him pick up Provinces, and then still go back for the Silk Roads (I should have gone into SR's before going so heavy into Duchies. I think) easily won him this game 54-45.


Series at end of game: qmech up 3-2

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ednever

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2012, 02:45:09 pm »
+1

Game 6: No Contraband at the ball!
Key Cards: Contraband, Masquerade, Farmland

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120505-163405-8518f33b.html

I really tight game where qmech outplayed me, but for two mistakes:
(1) He bought a Farmland when he only had a Province in hand (turn 13)
(2) He ended it by buying a Farmland, trashing a Farmland, gaining a Province, and losing by 1 point

The game was complicated due to the point tracker not being on (and neither of us realizing it until the game was in full swing). The game also came down to some pretty important choices on what to ban on Contraband (qmech makes the right choice a number of times at the end of the game stopping me from buying Farmlands even though there is only one Province left - I can almost always hit $6 but couldn't get to $8 to end the game)

But basically this was qmech's game if not for that one mistake on turn 13 (which I missed - and without the point tracker assumed he was 6 points higher than he actually was...)


Series tied again 3-3
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ednever

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2012, 02:51:13 pm »
+1

Game 7: That Hamlet needs a Library
Key Cards: Library, Hamlet, Sea Hag, Oasis, Great Hall

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120505-165155-7cd16879.html

Mirror match where qmech just played it better. Key was to use Oasis and Hamlets to cycle through your deck quickly and get to the Sea Hag. Then move to Libraries to keep the drawing cycle going (Hamlet: Discard for actions/buys. Oasis: Discard for $s. Library: Draw back up to 7. Repeat.)

qmech did it perfectly.

I moved into Libraries before having enough Hamlets (causing me to miss Hag plays and fall behind on the curse war), and then moved into Golds to 'catch up' which destroyed the whole magic of the engine.

qmech deservedly wins 35-23

Series now at 4-3 qmech. He only needs one more to win the series!

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ednever

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2012, 02:57:01 pm »
+1

Game 8: Expanding the Court Through Schemes
Key Cards: King's Court, Scheme, Expand, Gardens, Thief

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120505-170853-0cc6c3a3.html

King's Court again with no draw cards. And there was an Expand - which leads to super fast games (get ahead in VP and then start Expending your Provinces into more Provinces and taking away any chance of catching up). I almost wrote off KC. Thought: Get cash to pick up Expand quickly, then many a KC to speed up the Expands.

Then I saw the Scheme and had a flash of an idea.

I ended up building an engine that played like this:

King's Court->King's Court-> Scheme, Scheme, Expand

Put KC, KC, Scheme, Scheme, Expand and one other card back on the deck.


I'm not sure what qmech's plan was (I think we was going to use Thief to steal my treasure and then gobble up Gardens with a thick deck) but it never got off the ground. Once I had my chain going I picked up the rest of the Gardens (in one turn) to stop him from doing whatever it was he was doing, and then just improved my deck by $3x3+ every turn.

Series tied: 4-4

And Ed has to take care of a dinner party, so the final match gets pushed to the next day...
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ednever

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2012, 03:16:52 pm »
+1

Game 9: "The Final Match"
Key Cards: Minion, Oasis, City, Ironworks

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/06/game-20120506-101703-51dffb1c.html

(This is likely the most interesting match - if you have to choose one to read, I recommend you do this one)

Straight up Minion rush with a few twists.
First: Oasis lets you discard for $s. Great in a Minion deck (much better than Silver). But slow to get started in the race for the first Minion
Second: Ironworks. Which lets you pick up more Oasis later in the game which you are still trying to win the Minion race (and Provinces later)
Third: Cities over hanging everything. We all know the Minion pile will empty. And with IW the Oasis pile will too. So you are pretty much guaranteed level-2 cities...

How it played out:
qmech opens silver-silver to basically guarantee the first minion
ednever opens Ironworks/Oasis. I figured there was still even-odds of picking up a Minion after the first shuffle (Both Oasis and IW can be played for $1), but more importantly it would set me up for later in the game - being able to pick up an extra Oasis every turn, and be able to generate a ton of $s while cycling my deck with minions.

It worked out for both of us. qmech won the Minion race 6-4. I won the Oasis 7-2.

Then the game got really interesting. We could have ended up trading Provinces, but my Ironworks hovered over it all - it was a way I could get an extra Estate at some point to win on what would otherwise be a tie.

qmech saw that and picked up a city while we was still ahead (instead of a Duchy). I saw that and chose NOT to play my ironwoks on the last Oasis. Which forced him to spend a buy on an Oasis. Now he had a real +buy and I didn't.

I started using IW to pick up Estates when I could (they weren't so bad in this minion deck due to my large number of Oasis). I also chose a single (now fully powered) City instead of a Duchy when I got ahead to reduce the risk down the line.

That may have been a bad choice as qmech gets a lead and holds on to it. I'm finally left with a choice:
2 Duchies left
2 Estates left

I'm down by 2 points. I have an IronWorks and $4. I have two options:

(1) Ironworks a Silver, get +1$. Buy a Duchy. Now I'm ahead by 1 point with a single Duchy left
(2) Ironworks the Estate, and buy the remaining Estate. Ended the game on a tie (I'm second player)

It was a tough call. His greening had been substantial. His last turn he wasn't even able to buy an Estate.
But with Minions in the game you never knew what was going to happen (Funny: There are lots of cards that force you to reveal your hand, but I can't think of any that lets you look at your opponent's hand - except Bureaucrat, and that's only if they have no victory cards. A card like "+1 card, +1 action, opponents all reveal their hands" could be really useful in the end game)

I decide to take the tie.

His hand turned out to be green, green, copper, copper, oasis.

So we'll never know if it was the right choice (who knows if the +1 card after Oasis was a Minion or not...)

On to Game 10... Series tied 4-4-1...
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ednever

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2012, 03:34:45 pm »
+1

Game 10: Chancellor in the Court!
Key Cards: King's Court, Rabble, Festival, Trading Post and... Chancellor (!)

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/06/game-20120506-103426-34468692.html

Colony game with King's Court, a big draw card (Rabble) and a +$, +buy card (Festival).

You knew this game would be decided by a mega-turn. The key was: Who was going to get the mega-turn first?

I had first player advantage which helped. There was also Trading Post, which could be used to trash a little to increase the chances of drawing KC-KC-Rabble and setting off the chain.

And then there was Chancellor.

I'm not sure if I've ever purchased Chancellor before today. But when I looked at the kingdom I thought two things:

(1) It's all about getting the mega turn off first. And that means getting the King's Court(s) first. Chancellor helps you get your new buys into your deck a lot faster.
(2) King's Court loves Actions. It can't multiply the power of a Silver, but it can turn a Chancellor into a +$6 card (usually enough to buy another King's Court

I tried something I had never tried before. I opened Silver-Chancellor. Then proceeded to pick up 3 more Chancellors over the course of the game.

It worked. Kind of.

I cycled my deck quickly and picked up my first KC on turn 5. I manage to KC my Chancellor (one of my Chancellors) on turn 8. Picking up another KC and flipping the deck. I then start KC Chancellors almost every turn (with a couple of Trading Post plays thrown in). I pick up 6 King's Courts, often using $7+ to pick up a Festival (2) or Rabble (4).

Unfortunately I couldn't get my King's Court to collide with something to get a series going (Festival, KC-Rabble, or Festival, Rabble, KC..., or best yet: KC-KC-Rabble...)

Meanwhile qmech was slowly widdling away on the Colonies. He was ahead 42 to 11 with only 4 Colonies left on turn 22.

Then I drew it: King's Court, King's Court, Rabble, Chancellor, Festival.

Boom.

KC-KC-Rabble-KC-KC-KC...

Eventually playing all my Festivals and Chancellors three times.

I buy the four remaining colonies, and have enough left over for a duchy.

Final score: 53-42

End of game. End of series.

Final Tally:
ednever: 5 wins, 4 losses, 1 tie
qmech: 4 wins, 5 losses, 1 tie


qmech was a ton of fun to play.

These tournaments are great. They get really good players to pay attention to every move (I know I don't to that when I normally play). It makes for really intense games.

I will do the next one without question (even if it means starting at 6am and not being finished until after 6pm...)


I would love it if other good players would look at this series qmech and I played. I would love feedback on individual buys and what choices were right/wrong.

Thanks again to Rabid. Really fun weekend!

Ed
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qmech

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2012, 03:57:39 pm »
+2

Game 1

This game was lost entirely due to ednever picking up all 8 of the Nobles.  I got some early Goons and bought 4 before deciding to switch to Nobles: then I never hit 6 again until the pile was empty.  Nobles were absolutely key here, and my fourth Goons was probably a mistake.  I'm surprised things stayed as close as they did given my complete absence of draw, but I had to engage in some serious Duchy and Copper buying to make up points.

Two other things are worth mentioning.  First is that Horse Traders became particularly useful here, as it was my only source of "draw", giving me fodder to discard to Inn whenever I had one in hand.  The second is that this game reached the point where two Inn buys would end the game.  I was relying on Inn to keep my Duchies and Copper buried, but that option was eventually removed from me.  So bear in mind that deck management with Inn can't go on indefinitely.



Game 2

Warehouse/Tunnel is a great opening because it leads to fast Gold.  But it should be viewed as an accelerant, rather than an end in itself.  In this game Platinum was necessary to buy Colonies, but I think over-investment in Tunnels is likely to be a mistake even in Province games.  Here are our deck contents after 7 turns:

qmech: 5 points : 1 Platinum, 3 Gold, 1 Bridge, 1 Tunnel, 4 Warehouse, 3 Estate, 7 Copper
ednever: 11 points : 2 Gold, 1 Bridge, 4 Tunnel, 3 Warehouse, 3 Estate, 7 Copper

I have fewer Tunnels but more Gold (and a Platinum), as extra Warehouses mean that I see my Tunnel more often, and am able to spend the Gold I'm gaining faster.  In the late game, I also have fewer dead cards to filter out, which more than makes up for the points from Ed's 6 extra Tunnels.

(Note on the above example: it's slightly misleading, as the last two buys were Platinum for me, and Tunnelx2 for Ed.)



Game 3

Not very exciting.  Ed gets Farmland/Curse -> Estate a couple of times, but if they were Duchies instead it wouldn't have affected the result.
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qmech

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2012, 04:58:19 pm »
+1

Game 4

This is the sort of game I dread.  There's King's Court, some reasonable actions and a reasonably fast KC-free strategy.  First you have to decide whether or not KC will be useful, and if you decide that it is, you're then thrown on the mercy of the shuffle until you connect KC with something good.

Ed was worried about my Border Village/Hunting Party, and I think he's right to be: the Village is doing very little for me here when I'm KC'ing Hunting Parties.  I haven't thought about how BV will affect HP draws later on, but early on you'd expect it to foul up your engine.  It is an extra action that could connect with a KC, but I don't KC a BV until the very last turn, so that seems not to be important.

There are two other star cards here.  Bank is superb if you can work up to large hands.  Pawn can be the deciding factor in going for KCs, as card draw of last resort but far more importantly as a handy source of Buys.



Game 5

Too often recently I've tried to be cute with Silk Road in the presence of weak support and been punished for it.  Here I held my nerve, trashed my Estates and made a conventional grab for Provinces.  I was surprised to evenly split the Silk Roads against a rusher, but given the relative values of the Duchy and Silk Road in each of our decks, and that I overspent for all but my first Silk Road buy, a more concentrated attack on the Silk Roads wouldn't have affected the result.  Ed's Silk Roads almost ticked over to 5 though, which would have been a huge swing with more Silk Roads in deck.



Game 6

Protip: don't buy naked Farmlands if you're holding a Province in hand.

We both open Contraband nothing for a rapid start with the option for Farmland shenanigans later on to get round the penalty.  We transition into Masquerade/Money: I stick to the script and only buy treasure/VP, whereas Ed picks up a Worker's Village as well as an extra Contraband and Masquerade, which I think were mistakes.

With Masquerade, Farmlands and no point counter I'm not entirely certain of the scores, and think that trashing the Province must have cost me the game.  Seeing a chance to grab the final Farmland/Province, I take it, thinking things are unlikely to get better: I lose by a single point.  Sigh.



Game 7

Hamlet/Library is not something I've played often: it just doesn't seem to have come up.  (I lost one of my first Cornucopia games to Yaron when he spotted this strategy.)

I'm not sure what happened here.  I split Oases 6/4 in my favour, and gave out 6 Curses against only 3 received.  (Do you know of many other Sea Hag games where the Curses don't run out?)  Duchies are bought, and we 3-pile on those, Hamlets and Oases.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 05:23:03 pm by qmech »
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qmech

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 05:32:59 pm »
+1

Game 8

A rather unflattering disaster.  When I realise what a stupid "strategy" I'm following a few turns in, there's still time to buy Courtyards and switch to BM.  Instead, I stick with Thief against an opponent who isn't buying Treasure, and face a slow defeat as the KC/Schemes start to stack up.

There aren't any amazing cards to KC here, so Courtyard is probably competitive.



Game 9

Oasis/Silver: Silver will get you Minions faster, Oasis will be much more useful later.  How do you start?

Added to that, there's Ironworks.  Ironworks/Oasis feels so slow, so I go for Silver/Silver.  That eventually gets me 6 of the Minions, but Ed picks up 7 Oases.

Ed chose to end the game on a draw on turn 20.  On turn 19 I had my own dilemma: whether to break the PPR.  I decided not to, knowing he had two Minions left in his deck, so there was a reasonable chance that he could hit 8 next turn.  I expect to be able to keep ahead until the Duchies are gone, so I opt for Duchy/Estate.  When his turn comes, I'm surprised to see no Minions: it turns out that they fell to my own attack.



Game 10

This is the sort of game I dread.  There's King's Court

Key card: Chancellor.  Can you often say that?

Chancellor/Silver was definitely the right opening here.  I can only imagine I was worried about terminal collision: but once you start hitting KCs, you want things to collide, and the rapid cycling is hugely beneficial.  Not unusually, I grind out a lead rather than going for a mega turn, as with fewer KCs I'm not as well equipped for it.  It looks like I might have a chance, but no: Ed picks up his own SuperActionStar on turn 22, and with his final turn purchases of Colony/Colony/Colony/Colony/Duchy, I lose by 11 points.  I think that counts as close.

Thanks to ednever for some great games, and to Rabid for making them count.




Meanwhile qmech was slowly widdling away on the Colonies.

I deny everything.
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gorgonstar

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2012, 09:32:58 pm »
0

Game 7:  Cellar is actually good with sea hag, hamlet, library.  It cycles to let you play sea hag more.  You will also have a bunch of junk in your hand that you won't mind discarding.  It also helps you line up hamlet + library, which is hard when deck is filled with junk.

Game 9:  Ending the game in a tie is probably the right thing to do.  You don't want to play a game as second player where it's a race to buy one card to end the game.

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ednever

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2012, 10:01:25 pm »
0

gorgonstar: Would you pick up a Cellar instead of a Hamlet? Or are you saying when you have $2 and all the Hamlets are gone?
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theory

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2012, 12:10:48 pm »
+1

As a counter to Feel Bad Zoidberg: this is a great topic and you two should feel great.
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Rabid

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2012, 03:31:48 pm »
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Glad to hear you both had fun.
And thank you for the excellent match reports.
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1 Day Cup #1:Ednever

gorgonstar

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2012, 04:49:58 pm »
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Cellar is useful if your deck have very strong cards and very weak cards.  At one point you have 2 golds, 2 hamlets, a library and a sea hag.  At this point you should think about buying a cellar instead of hamlet.  You only have one library in which you want to draw the hamlet with.  The cellar has 3 targets, the two golds and the sea hag.

You might even want to buy a cellar instead of your first hamlet for cycling so that you can win the curse war.  I'm not sure though, because at that point you've already bought a library.

I think you might have overbought hamlets.  At one point you have 6 hamlets and one library.
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ednever

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Re: May 5th Tournament Final Game Comentary
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2012, 05:02:25 pm »
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That's a really good way of thinking about it. I've never really "got" cellar.

It's definitely bad in some kingdoms (with discard). But I never understood when it was good. Sometimes I pick it up with a $2 hand in the greening stage, but otherwise I usually ignore it.

Your pov (that I like a lot) is its not a "kingdom specific" card, but a "deck composition" card.

Any time your standard deviation in card quality is high it becomes worth picking up a cellar.

That makes it bad with heavy trashing, but good with heavy cursing. And almost by definition a good choice on a 5/2 opening where your card quality delta is just about the highest it's ever going to be.

Has someone done a simulation with sea hag? Would a hag/cellar/bm beat a hag/silver/bm?

Ed
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