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Axe Knight

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New Types of Cards
« on: July 07, 2011, 01:34:34 pm »
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Not sure if this has already been mentioned in a thread, but I recently was taking a look at the different types of cards in Dominion and what colors they are:

Cards that perform actions that sometimes affect what other people do (Greyish)
Cards that react to what other people (or sometimes, you) do (Blue)
Cards that add to your VP total (Green)
Cards that decrease your VP total (Purple)
Cards that directly affect more than one turn (Orange)
Cards that influence your buy phase (Gold)

What other types of cards could be introduced in future expansions, and what would be the best color for them?  I honestly can not think of something that could not be classified as a combination or special version of the above, though red seems to be the obvious choice for the next color.
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Tiger

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2011, 03:46:28 am »
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Well, there was a fan expansion which brought in duration cards with "On this turn ... On every turn hereafter ..." which could be classified as durations but also as something new, permanents.

I've been thinking a lot about different ways to punish someone, like the curse card, but somehow different. The idea that stuck with me is an action card that's not that good for you, but which you have to play if you get it in hand. It just struck me now that it could have a different-coloured back like the Stash cards. It maybe also deserves a new colour front, I'm not sure. It'd have to be a +1 Action action card or a treasure card, so it's technically covered.
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play2draw

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2011, 06:22:59 pm »
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One spring afternoon, after a night of hitting the bars followed by a prolonged session of "drunken isotropic play" I awoke with the strange inspiration to make a different type of card. I called them "draw cards", because they changed what you did during your draw phase, before your turn ends. I worked on it ravenously for an hour, without actually thinking much of balance.

I figured that a number of the cards would be randomly shuffled together to make a kingdom card pile. I think the idea was that these cards would be face-down in the supply, and you could freely look at the top three cards and choose to buy one during your buy phase, and then put these three on the bottom (black market style).

The last time I changed what what I wrote, I think I decided to have you actually play the draw cards during your draw phase. During your clean-up phase, you could set any number of these aside and play one before you draw (some of the cards had +1 draw, indicating that you could play it with other draw cards).

These cards may be [read: are probably] woefully unbalanced and rife with spelling and grammar mistakes (as this is copy/paste from a text file), and I'm likely not going to put any additional thought into making them better (or for that matter, giving them names and prices). But here they are:

Draw Cards

Empire : Draw 6 cards : No action cards may be played while this card is active.

Theocracy : Draw 5 cards : You may immediately trash a card. If you do, +1 vp.

:: Draw 3 cards. At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards. If you gain a curse, you may trash it and replace it with a copper.

Propaganda : Draw 4 cards : +1 action

Militarism : Draw 4 cards : If you bought a card during your buy phase, place a token on this card. If at the beginning of your turn there are three tokens on this card, +5 cards, +1 action, +1 buy, and at the end of your turn, remove all tokens from this card. Discarding this card removes all tokens from this card.

Commune : Draw 5 cards : You may trash a treasure card costing at least 6. If you do, place a coin token on this card. During your buy phase, you may choose to add +1 coin for each token on this card. Discarding this card removes all tokens from this card.

Gambler : Draw 5 cards : At the beginning of your turn, you may draw additional cards one at a time. You may draw no more than four additional cards. For each additional card drawn, -1 coin during your buy phase. If four cards are drawn, gain a curse, +1 buy, +1 action. If one of the additional cards drawn is a curse, put all additional cards in the discard pile.

:: Draw 3 cards : For each of these cards drawn:
   - If it is a treasure card: +1 card
   - If it is an action card: +1 coin
   - If it is a victory card: +1 action

Plutocracy : Draw 4 cards : Reveal a card from your hand. Gain a card costing 2 coins or less than the revealed card, putting it in your hand.

Imperialism : Draw 4 cards : If this card was active throughout your entire turn: If an opposing player buys a card that was not gained during your turn, this card's attack is activated and all opposing players gains a curse.

:: +1 draw. At the end of your draw phase, +1 card. Discard two cards.

:: Philanthropy : +1 draw. At the start of your buy phase, you man gain a copper, putting it in your hand.

:: +1 draw. While this card is active, the top card of your deck is face-up. After your buy phase, you may choose to discard one card from the top of your deck.

:: +1 draw. At the end of your draw phase, you may discard your hand and draw 4 cards.

:: +1 draw. If any opponent reshuffles their deck, you may place your draw pile on your discard pile.


Also, I'll post this fan expansion once again, just because it's relevant to the thread and it's probably the only fan expansion I'd actually consider playing. It's likely unbalanced, but it's unbalanced for everybody.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/629120/fan-mod-a-change-of-seasons-for-dominion
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 12:37:00 pm by play2draw »
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minced

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 09:52:11 pm »
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Those are some interesting ideas! Do you play "draw" cards as actions from hand, or do you just have one set aside as your "active" draw card?
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play2draw

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2011, 12:30:45 am »
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If memory serves me right, the cards would be purchased and put in your discard pile. They'd be drawn into your hand during play. During your clean-up phase, you'd reveal it and set it aside. You'd play them before you draw your cards, and they'd be in-play until the clean-up phase of your next turn. If you didn't play a draw card, then it'd go back to the discard pile, where you'd draw it again on a later turn.

The mechanics are very much incomplete, so if someone has ideas on how to make the concept fit more seamlessly, go right ahead and make some suggestions (this is a forum after all).
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 12:35:02 am by play2draw »
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Tiger

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2011, 04:53:35 am »
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I don't think it has to be much of a change. Tactician, Caravan, and a double Outpost (you don't get the third turn, but you still only draw 3 cards) are, after all, draw cards that cost you actions, so the only difference with these would be that they don't cost you actions and they are played after your buy and cleanup phases.


On another note, I'd like a Treasure-Duration card, just to see how it'd play.
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Axe Knight

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2011, 10:02:06 am »
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On another note, I'd like a Treasure-Duration card, just to see how it'd play.

New types of hybrids were my initial thought, but again, as you've seen, they're a combination of something that's already been done.  We've already entertained hybrid Curse cards quite a bit on here.  There have been no hybrid Duration cards, and I don't know if Donald X. would put them in a future set, seeing as how he's only had Duration cards in Seaside so far.  Also consider Action-Treasure cards.  They would affect both phases, possibly an Action card that you return to your hand during your buy phase.  Victory-Duration cards could also be interesting.  Perhaps a card that gives you VP chips this turn, and then gives you VP chips net turn based on how you play it. 
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play2draw

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2011, 12:23:59 pm »
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I don't think it has to be much of a change. Tactician, Caravan, and a double Outpost (you don't get the third turn, but you still only draw 3 cards) are, after all, draw cards that cost you actions, so the only difference with these would be that they don't cost you actions and they are played after your buy and cleanup phases.

Well... the difference is that you can play one of these cards every turn after you play it once (as opposed to waiting for it to appear from your deck), and it either provides only a modest benefit that adds up over time or requires a sacrifice in the number of cards you draw to make certain decks more viable. It's oil for an existing machine rather than the moving parts, and would, ideally, allow room for less conventional strategies... Of course, the cards I posted probably fail to accomplish this ideal, as they're incomplete, unbalanced, and not playtested.

And there have been other variants that have attempted such "permanent" cards. One I've seen on BGG uses duration cards that say something like "now and on each of your turns hereafter". This is just my attempt at such a thing.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 12:35:40 pm by play2draw »
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hughes

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2011, 03:57:47 pm »
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A neat twist on powercards would be variations on current cards that are either undercosted or overpowered because they are hybrid curses.

Ignobles

Cost 4

Choose one: +3 cards or +2 actions

-2 VP
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agrajag

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2011, 02:18:34 am »
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I like a lot of these. Playing off what others have said, here are my new card type ideas:

- Rule-altering cards -
Each player can have one in play at a time. Playing one costs an action, and if it's replacing one already in play the old card goes back in the discard.
Some example ideas:
 * During clean-up, you may place one card you have in play on top of your deck. If you do, only draw 4 cards during your draw phase
* Draw 6 cards during your draw phase. During your buy phase, all cards cost +2 coins.
* All players draw an extra card during their draw phase while this is in play.
* While this is in play, the game does not immediately end when all Provinces are gone (it still counts as an empty pile for ending on piles).
(these are probably not balanced, but you get the idea).

One idea I had is that these are all always available for anyone to buy, but there's only one of each (like Prizes) and they're not in the supply.


- Bad cards -
These are cards that have some negative effect that you are forced to play. The idea is that at the start of your turn, if they're in your hand, you're forced to reveal them and do something that hurts you, but they have a good amount of victory points to offset them (not sure how many VP would be needed to balance). Possibly could also have a different bonus, like be worth a lot of +coin.
Examples:
* All opponents draw a card.
* Return the last card you gained to the supply (or trash it, if it is not in the supply).
* Pass a card you gained last turned to the player to your right, his choice.

Not sure if anyone would buy these. On the other hand, if it's late game and they're worth a lot of VP, the negative effects might not even come up that often before the game ends, so they could be too powerful.
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guided

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2011, 12:13:03 pm »
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Cards that try to be too powerful for their cost but are then "balanced" by having negative VPs on them are always a bad idea. You buy the card way too cheaply, you use it to do awesome stuff, you trash the card. In other words, such cards are inherently unbalanced if there is any possibility of trashing them.

There's some possibility of doing that kind of card with a clause like "when you gain this card on your turn, take such and such number of negative VP chips". But I think these will still be difficult to balance. For example, I'd say that if you wanted to cost a version of Gold at $4, you'd probably have to get -10 VPs or something crazy like that to balance it, to where you would never buy more than 1 of them. Imagine how powerful it would be to open Gold with a 4/3! If it was -2 VPs or even -5 VPs I wouldn't even give it a second thought; I'd auto-open it every time it was available.
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agrajag

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2011, 12:59:39 pm »
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Ok, well then how about cards that are completely bad, but you can give them to your opponents? Like curses, but they have a penalty other than -VP? Have a pile of bad Curse-Action cards (maybe call them like, Hexes or something) then have a card that says "Each other player gains a Hex card. Otherwise they work the same as what I suggested before (at the start of your turn, if you have it in your hand you must reveal and get some negative effect).
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danshep

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2011, 09:53:04 pm »
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Any card with a "You must play this if it's in your hand" is a non-starter because it forces everybody to expose their hand at every point of their turn. Unless it has a unique back, in which case there's a whole world of differences that that introduces that makes it very hard to balance.
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Diving Pikachu

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 03:43:27 pm »
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The Bad Cards would be far too situational, and won't be bought very often because they gum up people's engines and just aren't very fun to play. A player buying Bad Cards would be far-outpaced by other players with strategies unimpeded by Bad Cards, and their worth would be different in Bishop or Goons games.

The "all players draw an extra card" card is useless to the player. And the other rule change cards are pretty weak too, making zero-sum changes that aren't very sexy. And you can't even use multiples of them either. Maybe if you gave them a prize-like scenario instead of making them take up an entire pile, they might be interesting. Like, if there was a "Judge" card that could give players rule change cards.
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agrajag

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2011, 07:49:48 pm »
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Maybe if you gave them a prize-like scenario instead of making them take up an entire pile, they might be interesting. Like, if there was a "Judge" card that could give players rule change cards.
I thought that was exactly what I was saying, maybe I was unclear. They would be non-supply pile (or at least a non-Kingdom pile like curses) that are given by some other cards. And actually if it works this way, it wouldn't even have to go into the players discard. Instead of making other people gain them, it could give them the effect immediately, swapping out for any existing one they had affecting them.

And I wasn't saying the examples I gave were particularly good or balanced, they were just quick examples to get the point across. I'm sure people could think up ones that would actually be worth it.
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philosophyguy

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Re: New Types of Cards
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2011, 12:27:18 pm »
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Going off the "impact the cleanup phase" theme: what if there was a card that, if you discarded it from your hand during the cleanup phase, had an effect? For example: a treasure card worth $2-$3, but if you discard it from your hand during cleanup (i.e., did not play it during the buy phase), it would allow you to put any card from your play area on top of your deck. Similar to a Haven for cards that you already played this turn, and it would have a normal action phase/buy phase effect so that you'd have to make a choice about whether to play it or not.
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