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Author Topic: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?  (Read 3894 times)

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Grujah

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Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« on: May 04, 2012, 09:13:30 am »
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So, just played a game, i bought
1 Gold, 2 Silvers, 1 Herbalist and as many HPs as I could (Herb's +buy helped actually).

So, I play my HPs, play my Herb, get to 8 (8+), buy I province..
and what do I topdeck?
Gold? or Copper to prevent early collisions? or.. nothing as getting HPs in first hand is more important or..?
I just can't get my mind to understand HP completely (I just buy Gold/Silv/Terminal and spam HP, + trying not to force a dead hand next turn).

Help.  ;D
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Fabian

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2012, 09:25:15 am »
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Probably nothing and try to magically trash the Herbalist somehow (=not buying it in the first place)
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ecq

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2012, 09:32:43 am »
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Before the Hunting Party pile runs out, definitely top-deck Gold.  If you don't make $8, that pretty much guarantees you $5.

After it runs out, probably still top-deck Gold.  Copper collision doesn't cause problems as often as not having enough HPs to find your Gold.  Also, not having your Gold in your draw pile means that HP has an easier time finding HP and Silver.
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theory

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2012, 09:40:32 am »
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Probably nothing and try to magically trash the Herbalist somehow (=not buying it in the first place)
Yeah, the problem with Herbalist is that you're going to get only +$1 from it.  Gold + Silver + Copper + Herbalist puts you at $7, which is a little inconvenient.

The ideal HP deck uses exactly 4 cards to get to $8 (Gold + Silver + Copper + terminal $2).  I'd probably swap out Herbalist for a Monument or Swindler or even Navigator/Chancellor.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2012, 09:47:28 am »
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If there aren't any $2 cards in the Kingdom, It seems to me like Herbalist might still be a decent option with HP.  Yeah, you only get to $7 with Gold/Silver/Copper/Herbalist, but you almost always draw a spare Copper once you have your stack going.  It has the +buy that lets you get 2xHP or Province/Estate if you get lucky enough to draw $10.  I guess I wouldn't take it over a $2 action, but I don't think you are just going to get stuck hitting $7.

Edit: I tried it a couple of times, and it seemed to work well enough.  The biggest problem was Herbalist not doing a great job of getting to $5 early.  The first test game was slow to get off the ground because of this.

Also, I was topdecking Gold, which seems like a good idea in general, but since it is guaranteed to be a Unique card, it doesn't help you skip anything.  If there is any benefit to skipping cards earlier, I guess it might be better to do Silver or Copper, but I'm not convinced there is.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 10:00:26 am by Deadlock39 »
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mnavratil

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 10:34:29 am »
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Also, I was topdecking Gold, which seems like a good idea in general, but since it is guaranteed to be a Unique card, it doesn't help you skip anything.  If there is any benefit to skipping cards earlier, I guess it might be better to do Silver or Copper, but I'm not convinced there is.

Topdecking gold seemed best to me too; I mean how often are you going to actually not draw a copper in your starting hand anyway? Might as well make sure your most valuable treasure is in hand. I also think that the guaranteed gold is better than an additional shot at HP; but that may not actually be true, or at a minimum depend on how far into the endgame you are.

Also totally unrelated, but I just noticed that your forum picture is the dining philosophers problem. Excellent choice considering your forum name.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 10:41:37 am »
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Also totally unrelated, but I just noticed that your forum picture is the dining philosophers problem. Excellent choice considering your forum name.

Indeed it is.  I've been using the name for a while now in various different places, and thought I could use a bit more context for at least those who would understand it.  (Sometimes my opponents perceive a different context if I am playing a Torturer pin...)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 10:53:14 am by Deadlock39 »
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Geronimoo

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 10:57:21 am »
+1

The simulator likes opening Hunting Party/Herbalist, but doesn't mind skipping the Herbalist if it opened Silver/Silver. It also likes putting back the Gold instead of nothing/Copper (+6% win rate, but I had to hard code this behaviour, so you can't test this yourself)
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Grujah

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 11:58:42 am »
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I opened HP/HB.
Other viable terminals were Coppersmith (would be worse), Duchess (considered it), Cache.. I think that was all.
HB +buy helped me get 2 HPs in one turn on an early 10.
I was topdecking Gold every time, but later it occurred to me whether it was the best. Didn't seem to hit 7 much.

@mnavratil - yeah, it is the Dinning Philosophers. Nice one :)
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ecq

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 12:36:35 pm »
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Probably nothing and try to magically trash the Herbalist somehow (=not buying it in the first place)
Yeah, the problem with Herbalist is that you're going to get only +$1 from it.  Gold + Silver + Copper + Herbalist puts you at $7, which is a little inconvenient.

The ideal HP deck uses exactly 4 cards to get to $8 (Gold + Silver + Copper + terminal $2).  I'd probably swap out Herbalist for a Monument or Swindler or even Navigator/Chancellor.

In theory :)

In practice, you don't need your unique cards to add up to $8, since Hunting Party nearly always draws extra Copper.  Hunting Party / Bishop, for instance, does quite well, better than Hunting Party / Cutpurse or Hunting Party / Woodcutter.  Herbalist is not nearly as good, but it would do the trick if there were no terminal Silvers available or possibly if the terminal Silvers were weak and you opened 5/2.

Monument and Chancellor are good choices, but were they available?  The presence Swindler seems like a good reason to not play a Hunting Party strategy.  I'm very skeptical about Navigator because of the reshuffle issue.  Triggering a reshuffle at the end of a Hunting Party chain can destroy your next couple of turns.
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Davio

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 12:57:17 pm »
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Probably nothing and try to magically trash the Herbalist somehow (=not buying it in the first place)
Yeah, the problem with Herbalist is that you're going to get only +$1 from it.  Gold + Silver + Copper + Herbalist puts you at $7, which is a little inconvenient.

The ideal HP deck uses exactly 4 cards to get to $8 (Gold + Silver + Copper + terminal $2).  I'd probably swap out Herbalist for a Monument or Swindler or even Navigator/Chancellor.
Probably not Navigator as it can screw up your reshuffles which are so critical with HP chains.
Mandarin might be decent as you can put an overkill HP back on your deck?
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2012, 01:35:08 pm »
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You definitely don't want to put back Copper. If your rationale is that by having Copper, you're less likely to draw Copper with HP, that's fallacious since you actually force yourself to draw the Copper that you top-decked. So you're not saving yourself from anything.

I would think it should be Gold, because you eventually want a HP to draw the Gold, so you might as well just have it in your hand to begin with. With some other form of Lab, it's possible that you might at times prefer to have Labs than Golds, since each Lab can draw multiple more Labs, but since an HP at most draws one more HP, there is nothing to really gain from not top-decking Golds.
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ecq

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Re: Hunting Party + Herbalist - what do you topdeck?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2012, 01:41:37 pm »
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You definitely don't want to put back Copper. If your rationale is that by having Copper, you're less likely to draw Copper with HP, that's fallacious since you actually force yourself to draw the Copper that you top-decked. So you're not saving yourself from anything.

I would think it should be Gold, because you eventually want a HP to draw the Gold, so you might as well just have it in your hand to begin with. With some other form of Lab, it's possible that you might at times prefer to have Labs than Golds, since each Lab can draw multiple more Labs, but since an HP at most draws one more HP, there is nothing to really gain from not top-decking Golds.

I agree with what you said about Golds, but although Hunting Party can only draw at most one Hunting Party, the Hunting Party it draws can (and with any luck will) draw yet another Hunting Party.
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