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Author Topic: My opinion / discussion on bonus points  (Read 2114 times)

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GendoIkari

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My opinion / discussion on bonus points
« on: May 03, 2012, 02:16:58 pm »
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I think that the bonus points in the solo challenges don't make a lot of sense. This was discussed somewhat in the "no buys allowed" challenge, but working to earn the bonus point seems to always be at odds with winning the challenge itself. Whatever the requirements are for the bonus point, it seems to always be something that will force longer games. This forces any player to basically decide if they want to do the challenge without the bonus point, and have a chance at first place; or do the challenge with the bonus point, and get that point(s) instead of the other ones.

I think this can easily be solved by just considering them different challenges. Make 2 challenges; make them at the same time if you want. Score them separately, etc. After all, a restriction of "no King's Courts" or "you must use this Kingdom" really does make it into a different challenge; with different strategies, etc.

Just my opinion. :)
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Galzria

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Re: My opinion / discussion on bonus points
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 02:27:56 pm »
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There are times I agree. But I also feel that some people are intimidated to jump in. They may not have the experience of building strong boards or seeing great combos. They may not even want to get their feet wet for fear of failure.

So the bonus points, at least in the case of Governor's Ball are there for encouragement. Just join in. Even if you don't feel like you have any clue about what you're doing, you can still earn as much as a second place finish.

For those who want to pit their mad rush skills, higher points are awarded for success, and slightly lower for coming up short.

But I want it to be open and inviting to everybody. Not just "only some can earn points"
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

greatexpectations

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Re: My opinion / discussion on bonus points
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 02:33:23 pm »
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personally, i don't think that bonus points are the issue.  i just think that there are too many different solo challenges going on at one time.  it spreads interest and participation too thin, IMO. i think it would be better for the creators to take turns and highlight/publicize 1-2 per week
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Galzria

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Re: My opinion / discussion on bonus points
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 02:52:54 pm »
+1

personally, i don't think that bonus points are the issue.  i just think that there are too many different solo challenges going on at one time.  it spreads interest and participation too thin, IMO. i think it would be better for the creators to take turns and highlight/publicize 1-2 per week

I'm not as sure about that being an issue. Many peopled prefer solo play, or only have time for it, so appreciate having multiple outlets. More though, back when it was just Ozle running them, they came and went in 2-3 days time, so you still got 2-3 per week... But it was more likely to miss a challenge. Now, most challenges last a week+, giving plenty of time to do them at leisure.

Now, I do think it would be a good idea for challenge creators to place [C] tag in front of completed threads, so it's more obvious what's running. And I would be hesitant for any single poster to run more than one challenge at a time.

But as long as the deadline is far enough off, I don't see an issue with decreased interest over a given span of time. Entries ebb and flow. Some people jump at them, some take their time, some submit as late as possible. I wouldn't get discouraged by a lack of entries midway through though.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

greatexpectations

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Re: My opinion / discussion on bonus points
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2012, 07:03:22 pm »
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Not enough interest for this challenge, so I'm going to cancel. (source)

One day left, not many entries so far... Lots of chances on this one! Let's see what you can do! (source)

Did I make this one too hard? There wa only one competitor, so I am going to cancel. (source)

i am going to stand by my statement above.  either the novelty for these challenges has worn off or the challenge designers would be better off organizing and taking turns presenting challenges.
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Ozle

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Re: My opinion / discussion on bonus points
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2012, 09:49:39 am »
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Or basically none were as good as mine! mwuaha. Naah only joking.

I think there are quite a few issues:

I think part of the problem is that a lot of them are much harder and more elaborate that you actually have to have proper well defined strategy's to take part which puts off some people new to them.
Also yes, there are waay to many now, which is why I stopped mine for the time being.
Some also seem to be moving more away from the original ones to be more puzzle like and not like real games (with perfect results to aim for being put into the thread)

The bonus points, as Galriza pointed out earlier is just to get people taking part, I always planned on doing a 10 or so series at a time, and the bonus points were for people who felt they couldnt really win but wanted to take part and a little reward for doing out of the ordinary stuff.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: My opinion / discussion on bonus points
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2012, 09:53:15 am »
+3

I was much more interested in taking part in these when there was only one to think about at a time and the puzzle was "here is a kingdom, do something with it" rather than "here is a list of every card in the game, choose 10 of them and then do something with them".
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Fate

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Re: My opinion / discussion on bonus points
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2012, 10:08:49 am »
+2

Agreed with Thisisnotasmile. 

Having a defined kingdom actually teaches you how to play the game better, learning the strengths and weakness of each card and discovering unique ways that they interact.  However, making your own kingdom is all about creating an ideal set-up which will never happen in real life and the end result is more often than not, how can I best use king's court.
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GigaKnight

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Re: My opinion / discussion on bonus points
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2012, 09:29:52 pm »
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Agreed with Thisisnotasmile. 

Having a defined kingdom actually teaches you how to play the game better, learning the strengths and weakness of each card and discovering unique ways that they interact.  However, making your own kingdom is all about creating an ideal set-up which will never happen in real life and the end result is more often than not, how can I best use king's court.

I agree to an extent but it's pretty easy to just ban the most warping cards.  Even without bans, there were some really creative solutions to the "gain and trash all the curses" challenge.

There's definitely room for both right now.  But my guess is that we'll quickly run out of generic goals that are actually interesting (if we haven't already) and then we'll just be doing the pre-made Kingdom challenges.  It's kind of a non-issue, though.  Let people post and complete boring challenges if they want; nobody has to compete in them.

Dilution is an interesting point, though.  I definitely don't have time to compete (well) in all the challenges and I'd rather not submit than submit something I know is bad.  So, yeah, having a lot of challenges probably reduces interest.  We just don't have the critical mass necessary to support so many.  But part of the problem could just be lack of overall organization.  It would be nice if active challenges were stickied and had an end date posted in their title.  Then when they complete they get unstickied with a [COMPLETED] tag or something.  Some masochist who wants to queue and manage all the challenges would be nice, too, but I find it unlikely anybody will want to do that for anything but their own.

And, about points:  I think all points for the challenges are silly.  An accurate leaderboard would require everybody to participate in all the events.  That's not really going to happen so, once it loses its accuracy, it loses its relevance to me.  I realize not everybody thinks this way, so I don't mind that there are points, but I have trouble seeing how bonus points are much of an incentive to participate otherwise.  I mean, how many people want their name on the leaderboard just to have it there?  Did you challenge runners find that you had people entering for just the bonus points?  GendoIkari makes a great point that you could potentially get another challenge out of the idea used for the bonus points.
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Ozle

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Re: My opinion / discussion on bonus points
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2012, 08:00:30 am »
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Did you challenge runners find that you had people entering for just the bonus points? 

I did, although that was when there was just my challenges running, with so many now and of varying types I would expect the points to matter less.

A couple of times though i think somone even managed to score points AND bonus points because I tried to make the bonus point mean it was the same challenge, just a little bit harder.

If I was to do it again I'd still have points and bonus points, but I would hide the leaderboard and do a series of 10 games and then announce the winner at the end, but there are too many going on now to even think about that.

And back to the main point, as Fate and TINAS have said
"Having a defined kingdom actually teaches you how to play the game better, learning the strengths and weakness of each card and discovering unique ways that they interact"

That was my whole idea when I started them. The first few were that I picked cards because I was interested how they would react in a real game under the hands of the more experienced people!

I learnt quite a lot to be honest.
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