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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: Potion cost cards  (Read 28414 times)

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Tdog

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2012, 05:02:23 pm »
0

Where would you rank Familar with the other~ $5 cursers? I would think it is the strongest. The potion price puts it fourth behind IGG witch and Moutebank head on, however.
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jotheonah

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2012, 05:15:13 pm »
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I have never gotten the hang of Golem.  It is clearly a good card, but I can't figure out how to play it.

The key to a good Golem deck seems to be really good deck control. Putting exactly the actions you want to play in and nothing else and then somehow obtaining a high Golem density. I can't say I've mastered it either, but I do know that you often get in trouble just trying to add Golem into a deck as an afterthought. (Especially, obviously, with trashers, but there are lots of cards that Golem doesn't love. I had a deck with a bunch of Hamlets (because I kept hitting $2P and there was nothing else in that pricepoint) and my Golems kept hitting double Hamlet, which was really not that helpful at ALL)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2012, 05:23:28 pm »
0

Where would you rank Familar with the other~ $5 cursers? I would think it is the strongest. The potion price puts it fourth behind IGG witch and Moutebank head on, however.

You mean if it cost $5? It would be the strongest, yeah. As it is, it's the weakest in general, of the cards that actually give curses (i.e. I'm excepting amb, Jester, and Swindler here). Only exception to that is MAYBE young witch, because it's so bane-dependent.

brokoli

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2012, 05:30:42 pm »
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Alchemist is clearly overrated... even if I ranked it 2nd ! My opinion has totally changed about this card  :P
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2012, 08:49:19 pm »
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Where would you rank Familar with the other~ $5 cursers? I would think it is the strongest. The potion price puts it fourth behind IGG witch and Moutebank head on, however.

You mean if it cost $5? It would be the strongest, yeah. As it is, it's the weakest in general, of the cards that actually give curses (i.e. I'm excepting amb, Jester, and Swindler here). Only exception to that is MAYBE young witch, because it's so bane-dependent.

Young Witch is not just vulnerable to good banes: I've found that if the board has good trashing and engine potential, it's often better to just get your own economy up and running instead, and know that you can handle the curses as they come in- this is somewhat true for Familiar as well, but it's almost never true for Mountebank, and only rarely for Witch/Hag/IGG.  (Hag is of course even worse for your own deck, but makes up for it by giving curses in a much more painful manner.)  I do think it's a notch below Familiar, though Familiar is in turn worse than the others.
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yuma

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2012, 07:56:32 pm »
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I'm pretty sure that I was the combo-breaker that ranked Philosopher's Stone last instead of Transmute.

And I stand by that assessment.
I'll admit: it was me... and I retract my vote, I think I had quite a few outliers on this list for a couple of reasons:

1. when I submitted my list I was ~ level 10.
2. when I submitted my list I put all the cards together in one huge 157 card list and as a result the bottom of the list just got cluttered with "bad" cards and I didn't pay a super lot of attention to where some of the cards were ranked compared to others of the same cost.

I had Philosopher's Stone beneath it along with a couple of other cards of other costs that don't make any sense to me now (Bureaucrat, Cutpurse, Contraband and about 10 others  :o )

Sorry to ruin the consistency
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 07:59:03 pm by yuma »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2012, 08:43:28 pm »
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Young Witch is not just vulnerable to good banes: I've found that if the board has good trashing and engine potential, it's often better to just get your own economy up and running instead, and know that you can handle the curses as they come in- this is somewhat true for Familiar as well, but it's almost never true for Mountebank, and only rarely for Witch/Hag/IGG.  (Hag is of course even worse for your own deck, but makes up for it by giving curses in a much more painful manner.)  I do think it's a notch below Familiar, though Familiar is in turn worse than the others.
I think Sea Hag is probably skippable more often than you give it credit for. Sea Hag is about the same power level as Young Witch with a bad bane. It hurts them more but hurts you more too (in about equal proportion).
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popsofctown

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2012, 07:46:22 pm »
+2

Young Witch is not just vulnerable to good banes: I've found that if the board has good trashing and engine potential, it's often better to just get your own economy up and running instead, and know that you can handle the curses as they come in- this is somewhat true for Familiar as well, but it's almost never true for Mountebank, and only rarely for Witch/Hag/IGG.  (Hag is of course even worse for your own deck, but makes up for it by giving curses in a much more painful manner.)  I do think it's a notch below Familiar, though Familiar is in turn worse than the others.
I think Sea Hag is probably skippable more often than you give it credit for. Sea Hag is about the same power level as Young Witch with a bad bane. It hurts them more but hurts you more too (in about equal proportion).

Disagree.  Sea Hag is far less skippable than Young Witch.  Yes, they both hurt you, and yes, Young Witch hurts you less, but the key thing is that Sea Hag drags your opponent down to your level.  Since the damage is fast, it can keep your opponent from laying a finger on the 5$ or 6$ price point, which often has key cards for tolerating a curse game like Trading Post as a counter or Embassy as a powerhouse.

Young Witch lets you hit those price points and the ability to scramble out of the curse filled muk butterfly affects the rest of the game.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2012, 04:48:09 am »
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Clearly YW and Sea Hag games are going to play out differently, but my argument is that they are of similar power level (assuming the bane is not worth getting). With Hag, everything moves slow for both player. With Young Witch it moves faster. But while you're building up faster against Young Witch, the Young Witch player is building up too, while giving curses.

As an example, I take the "Peddling at the Market" bot in Geronimoo's sim, replacing the Masquerade with a Steward, so it doesn't hard-counter curses. If you put this modified engine bot against Sea Hag or Young Witch, it wins. But if you open Young Witch/Silver instead of Steward/Quarry, and then go into the same engine, it beats the pure engine. You can't do the same with Sea Hag. So one could argue that in this board (Market, Peddler, Quarry, Smithy, Worker's Village, Steward, $4 curser), you can skip Hag but you can't skip Young Witch.

Obviously there are also examples in the other direction (where you can skip Young Witch but not Sea Hag), but I think on the whole it's probably pretty close. I think there's just a greater psychological fear of Sea Hag that keeps people from trying to skip it.
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O

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2012, 10:54:12 pm »
+1

Clearly YW and Sea Hag games are going to play out differently, but my argument is that they are of similar power level (assuming the bane is not worth getting). With Hag, everything moves slow for both player. With Young Witch it moves faster. But while you're building up faster against Young Witch, the Young Witch player is building up too, while giving curses.

As an example, I take the "Peddling at the Market" bot in Geronimoo's sim, replacing the Masquerade with a Steward, so it doesn't hard-counter curses. If you put this modified engine bot against Sea Hag or Young Witch, it wins. But if you open Young Witch/Silver instead of Steward/Quarry, and then go into the same engine, it beats the pure engine. You can't do the same with Sea Hag. So one could argue that in this board (Market, Peddler, Quarry, Smithy, Worker's Village, Steward, $4 curser), you can skip Hag but you can't skip Young Witch.

Obviously there are also examples in the other direction (where you can skip Young Witch but not Sea Hag), but I think on the whole it's probably pretty close. I think there's just a greater psychological fear of Sea Hag that keeps people from trying to skip it.

>Takes Sea Hag bot, using only Sea Hag or Young Witch
>Puts in engine with several other cards as a competitive alternative
>Sea Hag and Young Witch Bots don't have access to any of the other cards.
>Draw conclusion that cursing is ignorable

There's no folly there...
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2012, 01:39:36 am »
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>Takes Sea Hag bot, using only Sea Hag or Young Witch
>Puts in engine with several other cards as a competitive alternative
>Sea Hag and Young Witch Bots don't have access to any of the other cards.
>Draw conclusion that cursing is ignorable

There's no folly there...

I actually made a complete argument, and just took that as a quick example because it's built into the sim. The point has nothing to do with that specific kingdom. And my conclusion was not that cursing is ignorable.

I'm not 100% sure you can't beat that bot with a strategy using Sea Hag, but that's not really the point. Any time I use sims, it's to investigate or demonstrate a concept. In this kingdom, buying Sea Hag slows you down a lot, because you can't get a Quarry and first Market as fast, and so you're going to end up behind in Markets and Peddlers. The curses you give don't cause enough of a slowdown to make up for it. Young Witch, on the other hand, lets you keep building your engine while cursing, so you can keep up.

It appears at least as first that here: Young Witch + Engine > Engine (no cursing) > anything with Sea Hag.
This may not exactly be the case here, and you're welcome to spend your time finding a Sea Hag + other stuff strategy that wins, but that's merely academic.

The point is that such kingdoms exist (kingdoms where you can skip Sea Hag, but wouldn't be able to skip Young Witch if it were there instead). Sea Hag does cost you something, and if it doesn't do enough damage, it's not worth it. I think Sea Hag is probably skippable over 25% of the time. According to councilroom, I skip it nearly 25% of the time and have an increase in win rate (from 1.36 to 1.43) when I do, and I feel like I still don't skip it enough, because a lot of times I go into auto see-strong-card-and-buy it mode.
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Piemaster

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2012, 04:43:31 am »
0

I had a deck with a bunch of Hamlets (because I kept hitting $2P and there was nothing else in that pricepoint) and my Golems kept hitting double Hamlet, which was really not that helpful at ALL)
+2 Cards, +2 Actions, plus some gravy.  Doesn't sound that bad to me...
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tlloyd

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2012, 04:56:56 pm »
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Young Witch lets you hit those price points and the ability to scramble out of the curse filled muk butterfly affects the rest of the game.

I'm trying to imagine how I would have responded to this "gibberish" two years ago. Now it makes perfect sense to me.  :)
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popsofctown

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2012, 05:12:32 pm »
0

curse-filled should be hyphenated, it'd make the sentence more readable.

And verbing the noun "butterfly effect" by spelling effect with an 'a' is sketchy.

Is muck spelled with a c when it isn't a pokemon?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 05:14:45 pm by popsofctown »
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qmech

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2012, 05:37:51 pm »
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Yes.  And is it just me, or is dark in here?
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toaster

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2012, 06:04:56 pm »
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The point is that such kingdoms exist (kingdoms where you can skip Sea Hag, but wouldn't be able to skip Young Witch if it were there instead). Sea Hag does cost you something, and if it doesn't do enough damage, it's not worth it. I think Sea Hag is probably skippable over 25% of the time. According to councilroom, I skip it nearly 25% of the time and have an increase in win rate (from 1.36 to 1.43) when I do, and I feel like I still don't skip it enough, because a lot of times I go into auto see-strong-card-and-buy it mode.

I certainly can agree that there are Kingdoms where Sea Hag is skippable and Young Witch isn't (tops on my list would be set with strong Sea Hag counters like Lookout/Maquerade/Native Village, which take advantage of SH's topdecking behavior).  I'd also agree that 25% probably a decent ballpark for how often Sea Hag is skippable...I play it in 75.5% of my games and do slightly better when I play it than when I don't.  That's still far more effective than Young Witch, which I find is only a good buy in a little over half the games where it's present.  The ability to top deck a curse really is that powerful, and I think Sea Hag's general reputation as standing head and shoulders above Young Witch is well deserved.  There are exceptions where YW is stronger, but that's true of almost any card and those sets are just that: exceptions to the general rule.
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2012, 06:42:33 pm »
0

I buy...
Mountebank 91%
Sea Hag 80%
Witch 76%
Familiar 75%
Young Witch 51%

And of these, Young Witch is my highest "win rate given available" by far: in fact I win more often when I don't buy it.  At least in my experience, it's easily the most ignorable of the Curse-giving actions.

Note that I should buy Witch more often than I have: there was a period of time when I was trying to be too cute in ignoring it and got burned a lot.  My sense is that if I played optimally Witch would definitely a few percentage points higher, and Hag/Familiar might be a couple points lower.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 06:44:55 pm by chwhite »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2012, 06:48:11 pm »
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Oh Young Witch is definitely more skippable overall, but largely because of the bane card. My claim was the Sea Hag and Young Witch with unbuyable bane are of similar power level. The number of boards where you buy neither Young Witch nor the bane is probably in the 25% ballpark just like Sea Hag. That other 25% of time that you skip Young Witch, you're probably also buying the bane.

To clarify, the quote i was originally responding to was:
Young Witch is not just vulnerable to good banes: I've found that if the board has good trashing and engine potential, it's often better to just get your own economy up and running instead, and know that you can handle the curses as they come in- this is ... only rarely [true] for ...Hag...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 06:52:35 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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popsofctown

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2012, 12:38:12 am »
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^Yes, this is what is being discussed.

We should rename the thread "Sea Hag versus Bad Bane Young Witch" to avert future confusions >_>.
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2012, 03:52:25 am »
0

Oh Young Witch is definitely more skippable overall, but largely because of the bane card. My claim was the Sea Hag and Young Witch with unbuyable bane are of similar power level. The number of boards where you buy neither Young Witch nor the bane is probably in the 25% ballpark just like Sea Hag. That other 25% of time that you skip Young Witch, you're probably also buying the bane.

To clarify, the quote i was originally responding to was:
Young Witch is not just vulnerable to good banes: I've found that if the board has good trashing and engine potential, it's often better to just get your own economy up and running instead, and know that you can handle the curses as they come in- this is ... only rarely [true] for ...Hag...

Eh, I'm pretty sure that I still skip YW on boards with unbuyable banes more often than I skip Hag, though obviously the difference is less stark.  I don't think there's a way to separate it out in CR data, so this is more of a gut feeling than anything.
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Geronimoo

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2012, 04:08:40 am »
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I don't think unplayable banes exist. As soon as someone buys a Young Witch, the bane will become playable because the Curses you're going to get otherwise will be slightly more unplayable...
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DStu

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2012, 04:48:54 am »
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I don't think unplayable banes exist. As soon as someone buys a Young Witch, the bane will become playable because the Curses you're going to get otherwise will be slightly more unplayable...

Arguing like that Moats would be a great defense to Cursers in 2p, which they often aren't...
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Geronimoo

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2012, 04:59:41 am »
0

I don't think unplayable banes exist. As soon as someone buys a Young Witch, the bane will become playable because the Curses you're going to get otherwise will be slightly more unplayable...

Arguing like that Moats would be a great defense to Cursers in 2p, which they often aren't...
Except it often is...
If you open Silver/Moat you have a clear advantage over someone who goes Silver/Silver in a Mountebank/Witch game and even more pronounced is the Sea Hag/Moat opening.
You can easily check this by adding a Moat to the default bots in the simulator.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2012, 08:27:14 am »
0

I don't think unplayable banes exist. As soon as someone buys a Young Witch, the bane will become playable because the Curses you're going to get otherwise will be slightly more unplayable...

Arguing like that Moats would be a great defense to Cursers in 2p,
Right.
Quote
which they often aren't...
Well, maybe they often aren't. But they very often ARE.

DStu

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2012, 08:28:43 am »
0

seems like I stand corrected.
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