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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: Potion cost cards  (Read 26734 times)

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Robz888

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #75 on: May 08, 2012, 10:16:47 pm »
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Yeah, Explorer isn't nearly as bad as I once thought it was. I mean, it's still in the bottom 10 of the $5s, but probably not the bottom 5, which is where I used to place it.
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dondon151

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2012, 12:03:30 am »
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An interesting thought experiment: imagine Explorer at $4.  It would be JoaT-level bonkers.  But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost.  I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.

I don't think it would be that overpowered at all at $4. Explorer does give you more money immediately when you play it, but JoAT makes up for that slightly with a draw up to 5, and JoAT's spying effect and Estate trashing are not just cute little bonuses. The benefit of matching up an Explorer and Province in hand is arguably not as much as that of matching up a Tournament and Province in hand, either, and it's probably more difficult to match Explorer and Province if you've been gaining Silvers.
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Robz888

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2012, 01:04:27 am »
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But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost.  I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.

I don't think it is in the bottom 5 for $5. You have Saboteur, Counting House, Stash, Outpost, Mine. Those are all definitely worse, right? Then you have Harvest, Mandarin, and Cache, which I think are probably still worse than Explorer. Mandarin and Cache are debatable, but still, Explorer would miss the bottom 5.

Just my thoughts--you may certainly disagree. And I know it's splitting hairs a bit, but that's what these threads are for!
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #78 on: May 09, 2012, 01:27:12 am »
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But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost.  I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.

I don't think it is in the bottom 5 for $5. You have Saboteur, Counting House, Stash, Outpost, Mine. Those are all definitely worse, right? Then you have Harvest, Mandarin, and Cache, which I think are probably still worse than Explorer. Mandarin and Cache are debatable, but still, Explorer would miss the bottom 5.

Just my thoughts--you may certainly disagree. And I know it's splitting hairs a bit, but that's what these threads are for!

I'd say that Outpost and Mine are, while certainly not good cards, both clearly better than Explorer.   FWIW, my bottom 5 is Counting House as the clear #1 worst, some combination of Cache, Saboteur, and Explorer as #2 through #4, and Stash and Mandarin fighting it out for the #5 spot.

I guess Mine, Tribute, Harvest, and Outpost would probably round out my bottom ten in roughly that order.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 01:35:06 am by chwhite »
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Robz888

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #79 on: May 09, 2012, 01:50:57 am »
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But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost.  I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.

I don't think it is in the bottom 5 for $5. You have Saboteur, Counting House, Stash, Outpost, Mine. Those are all definitely worse, right? Then you have Harvest, Mandarin, and Cache, which I think are probably still worse than Explorer. Mandarin and Cache are debatable, but still, Explorer would miss the bottom 5.

Just my thoughts--you may certainly disagree. And I know it's splitting hairs a bit, but that's what these threads are for!

I'd say that Outpost and Mine are, while certainly not good cards, both clearly better than Explorer.   FWIW, my bottom 5 is Counting House as the clear #1 worst, some combination of Cache, Saboteur, and Explorer as #2 through #4, and Stash and Mandarin fighting it out for the #5 spot.

I guess Mine, Tribute, Harvest, and Outpost would probably round out my bottom ten in roughly that order.

Well, we definitely agree on which cards go in the bottom 10! It's nice to hear Mandarin get some hate. Such a bad card, and I don't even really understand why it's so bad, but it is. I guess just gaining it is such an awful pain.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #80 on: May 09, 2012, 02:03:52 am »
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I'd pick up a Cache in a higher percentage of games than I'd pick up a contraband. (Trader, Watchtower, Greening, Spicemerchant/Moneylender, Counting House (ok.. not really), apothecary...)
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2012, 02:17:53 am »
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But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost.  I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.

I don't think it is in the bottom 5 for $5. You have Saboteur, Counting House, Stash, Outpost, Mine. Those are all definitely worse, right? Then you have Harvest, Mandarin, and Cache, which I think are probably still worse than Explorer. Mandarin and Cache are debatable, but still, Explorer would miss the bottom 5.

Just my thoughts--you may certainly disagree. And I know it's splitting hairs a bit, but that's what these threads are for!

I'd say that Outpost and Mine are, while certainly not good cards, both clearly better than Explorer.   FWIW, my bottom 5 is Counting House as the clear #1 worst, some combination of Cache, Saboteur, and Explorer as #2 through #4, and Stash and Mandarin fighting it out for the #5 spot.

I guess Mine, Tribute, Harvest, and Outpost would probably round out my bottom ten in roughly that order.

Well, we definitely agree on which cards go in the bottom 10! It's nice to hear Mandarin get some hate. Such a bad card, and I don't even really understand why it's so bad, but it is. I guess just gaining it is such an awful pain.

I'd pick up a Cache in a higher percentage of games than I'd pick up a contraband. (Trader, Watchtower, Greening, Spicemerchant/Moneylender, Counting House (ok.. not really), apothecary...)

Oh, I completely forgot about Contraband.  I think it's somewhere in the Mine/Tribute/Harvest/Outpost scrum.  Royal Seal's down there too- it not bad per se, it's certainly better than Stash, but actually buying it is rarely the best option.

As for Mandarin... it is a royal pain to buy, very hard to use, and just ignoring it is a good rule of thumb that will rarely steer you wrong.  The on-gain effect is usually a severe penalty, and the when-play topdecking is better but often also hurts. But there are a few situations where I've made good use of it:

a) It can be an income source in heavy treasureless engines- Scrying Pool and the like, pick it up with virtual money and use it for both the cash and topdeck spare engine parts for next turn.
b) Situationally, as an endgame treasure pusher in clogged BM decks- get it instead of duchy if you're ahead and just need that last Province sooner.
c) Very rarely as an opening with a power $5 that does nothing for your economy.  Mandarin/Hunting Party and Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Apprentice are the only two that come to mind right now, there are probably a couple others.

Basically, all of these situations try to sidestep the problem that Mandarin's when gain effect really sucks most of the time, by either a) avoiding it entirely, b) being the one situation where it's an actual benefit, c) trading tempo for power.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 02:31:37 am by chwhite »
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2012, 02:29:48 am »
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In a money strategy, I'd buy Cache over Stash anyday.
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jotheonah

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2012, 10:33:08 am »
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Mine is really not a bad card. If you can find a way to play it frequently - KC-Mine, Scheme-Mine, Mine as part of a draw-your-deck engine - it can really build your economy fast. It's a good card, just a little slow.

Plus, in an Alchemy game you can use Mine to grab a Potion and Potion-cost card on the same turn, eliminating the telegraphing effect of buying a Potion, and turn your Potion into a same-turn Gold when you're done with it.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #84 on: May 09, 2012, 10:51:31 am »
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Mine is really not a bad card. If you can find a way to play it frequently - KC-Mine, Scheme-Mine, Mine as part of a draw-your-deck engine - it can really build your economy fast. It's a good card, just a little slow.

Plus, in an Alchemy game you can use Mine to grab a Potion and Potion-cost card on the same turn, eliminating the telegraphing effect of buying a Potion, and turn your Potion into a same-turn Gold when you're done with it.

i really love Mine, and it is my best 'effect with' at 3.14.  in addition to KC, scheme, and potion games, it is also nice as the key terminal for a lot of one card engines (hunting party, caravan, laboratory, stables) and it gets a pretty big boost in colony games.
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #85 on: May 09, 2012, 01:23:58 pm »
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Cheers for the explorer advice, I'll give it a try next time Dukes stuff's are on the board and see how I get on!
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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #86 on: May 09, 2012, 01:59:56 pm »
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The main thing about Explorer (and other treasure gainers) is that they let you green more aggressively.  Obviously, that's great for Duke.  It's also good on boards Tunnel, Silk Road, or Gardens - not so much for pursuing those strategies, but for allowing your deck to cope with a late-game card worth 2-4VP.  In a game with heavy greening, you want an Explorer in your deck

It would also be an awesome partner for IGG, except why didn't you buy an IGG or Duchy instead?

Also, while it doesn't yield Gold reliably, if you pick up 3-4 Provinces, you'll probably see a Gold or two with no additional effort.
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popsofctown

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): Potion cost cards
« Reply #87 on: May 09, 2012, 08:47:32 pm »
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But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost.  I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.

I don't think it is in the bottom 5 for $5. You have Saboteur, Counting House, Stash, Outpost, Mine. Those are all definitely worse, right? Then you have Harvest, Mandarin, and Cache, which I think are probably still worse than Explorer. Mandarin and Cache are debatable, but still, Explorer would miss the bottom 5.

Just my thoughts--you may certainly disagree. And I know it's splitting hairs a bit, but that's what these threads are for!

I'd say that Outpost and Mine are, while certainly not good cards, both clearly better than Explorer.   FWIW, my bottom 5 is Counting House as the clear #1 worst, some combination of Cache, Saboteur, and Explorer as #2 through #4, and Stash and Mandarin fighting it out for the #5 spot.

I guess Mine, Tribute, Harvest, and Outpost would probably round out my bottom ten in roughly that order.

Well, we definitely agree on which cards go in the bottom 10! It's nice to hear Mandarin get some hate. Such a bad card, and I don't even really understand why it's so bad, but it is. I guess just gaining it is such an awful pain.

I'd pick up a Cache in a higher percentage of games than I'd pick up a contraband. (Trader, Watchtower, Greening, Spicemerchant/Moneylender, Counting House (ok.. not really), apothecary...)

Oh, I completely forgot about Contraband.  I think it's somewhere in the Mine/Tribute/Harvest/Outpost scrum.  Royal Seal's down there too- it not bad per se, it's certainly better than Stash, but actually buying it is rarely the best option.

As for Mandarin... it is a royal pain to buy, very hard to use, and just ignoring it is a good rule of thumb that will rarely steer you wrong.  The on-gain effect is usually a severe penalty, and the when-play topdecking is better but often also hurts. But there are a few situations where I've made good use of it:

a) It can be an income source in heavy treasureless engines- Scrying Pool and the like, pick it up with virtual money and use it for both the cash and topdeck spare engine parts for next turn.
b) Situationally, as an endgame treasure pusher in clogged BM decks- get it instead of duchy if you're ahead and just need that last Province sooner.
c) Very rarely as an opening with a power $5 that does nothing for your economy.  Mandarin/Hunting Party and Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Apprentice are the only two that come to mind right now, there are probably a couple others.

Basically, all of these situations try to sidestep the problem that Mandarin's when gain effect really sucks most of the time, by either a) avoiding it entirely, b) being the one situation where it's an actual benefit, c) trading tempo for power.

B) is reason enough that "ignore it entirely" is NOT a good rule of thumb.  That's like saying, "oh, Quarry is a weak card, it's buyable in about as many games as Penultimate Province Rule comes up.  That seems rare enough that ignoring it entirely is a good plan.'

If you're up 2 points with 1 Province remaining, it's key, if you're down 2 points with 1 Province remaining, it's key, if you're fighting an alternate VP strategy and it's about emptying the province pile, it can be key (okay, speculation, I haven't played against alt VP using provinces in a mandarin game yet).


As for openings, I think Upgrade also seems a reasonable pal for Mandarin, similar in concept to Mandarin/Apprentice.  Mandarin can be trashed by upgrade, making it a 5$ card whose text doesn't matter.  It also can topdeck estates to make sure your upgrades collide with estates.
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« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 08:51:32 pm by popsofctown »
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