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Author Topic: 5/2 split and mint..  (Read 2825 times)

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PetterTB

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5/2 split and mint..
« on: July 07, 2011, 03:51:33 am »
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Is it possible to grab mint with the 5 coppers ? Let's assume any 2 cost card you want is on the table.
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rogerclee

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2011, 04:18:14 am »
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Mint/Lighthouse is the only combination even worth considering, and even then, the answer would almost always be no. These conditions would certainly have to be satisfied

1) No good alternative $5 card
2) No alternative trashing
3) Some kind of strategy that benefits greatly from a thin deck (like Conspirator)
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Reyk

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2011, 04:18:50 am »
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Is it possible to grab mint with the 5 coppers ? Let's assume any 2 cost card you want is on the table.

It has been discussed here:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=33.msg309#msg309
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WanderingWinder

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2011, 09:40:36 am »
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If there's no other good options, this is better than big money with 5/2 with any money-producing 2 except herbalist. So lighthouse, embargo, pawn, secret chamber. Basically in that order. But if there's another good 5 starter, go for that instead. If there's a strong 4 starter, you often want to go for that instead too.

guided

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2011, 11:39:33 am »
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Mint openings are just too slow, I think. Sure, you trash a bunch of bad cards right away, but you leave yourself with a truly awful deck that takes several shuffles to bootstrap itself back to usefulness. Consider that Estates compose almost half of your deck after the opening. Eugh. I figure in just about every circumstance you'd be better off opening some other $3-$5 card (even Silver).
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randomdragoon

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 02:52:35 am »
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http://councilroom.com/openings

Notice how the mint openings are near the bottom :) It is an extremely rare board where opening mint is good, but new players seem to find it really sexy at first glance.
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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2011, 06:27:53 am »
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lol@the other thread's last reply :P. I've never gotten mint in any of my games(Maybe one but even then....) as I just find it to be a bad card to use. If you want to trash silvers then sure but there are other cards that can trash much more effectively.
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KMueller

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2011, 12:08:56 pm »
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I wonder if this would work out:


Turn 1: CCEEE: --> Lighthouse
Turn 2: CCCCC:--> Mint {reshuffle}
Turn 3: CCE, LH, Mint--> Play lighthouse, purchase Silver {reshuffle}
Turn 4: EESCM---> purchase remake
Turn 5: Remake, EE,LH,S---> play lighthouse, remake 2 estates to silvers, purchase another LH
Turn 6: SSEC, Mint---> Purchase Festival (or other +$2 card) {reshuffle}
Turn 7: SSC, LH, Remake--->Purchase Gold
Turn 8: Festival,Mint,S,C,E---> Play Festival, Purchase Gold {reshuffle}
Turn 9: LH,M,E,G,Festival ---> Play Festival, Play Lighthouse, Mint Gold, Purchase Gold
Turn 10: C, G,S,C,Remake---> Play Lighthouse, Purchase Province {reshuffle}
Turn 11: SSS,E,C---> Purchase Province
Turn 12: Festival, Mint, G,G,Prov. ---> Purchase Province {reshuffle}
Turn 13: GGC, Remake, Lighthouse ---> Play LH, Mint Gold, Purchase Province
Turn 14: GGC, Province, Lighthouse ---> Play LH, Purchase Province
Turn 15: Province, Province, GGC---> Purchase Province
Turn 16: Mint, S,S, Province, Estate, --> Purchase Estate (or Garden, or Island, or nothing) {reshuffle}
Turn 17: GG, Festival, Province, Province ---> Purchase Province
Turn 18: G,G,S, P, P--->Purchase 8th Province

OK, silly excercise, takes perfect shuffle luck, but all in all, had enough to buy a Province every turn from Turn 10-15, and 17 and 18.

I guess this just goes to show that Mint is a terrible opening.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2011, 12:31:05 pm »
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Actually, it's not a horrible opening with the lighthouse, as you're extremely likely to get silver very quickly, and then the money starts rolling.

ShuffleNCut

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2011, 03:18:32 pm »
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Opening Mint is like asking Variance to come over for tea and cakes.  Sure there will be some awesome perfect open games where you buy a million green cards by turn X but then a lot of times where you play draw/go during the early game while you're praying for your coppers to align (or buying copper, ewwww)

I am a fan of buying Mint in the mid game where Platinum/Colony are available.  You can clear out a bunch of silver/copper and start Minting fat stacks of Platinum.  That is indeed a worthy cause.  Then again a random warehouse or two may do a better job of winning the game than Mint in those situations.  Mint can only harm you when it's in your hand.  It only helps you a shuffle and draw later.
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dan11295

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2011, 05:11:18 pm »
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I agree Mint is clearly stronger in colony games. Even moreso when extra buys are available and you have good deck drawing ability. I would wait until your ready get get your first platinum. otherwise it is just going to gum up your deck. 5/2 mint in a colony game is a bad idea I think unless you feel there are no other options. There are likely better options in a colony game to jump start things. Plus I don't want to have to do things like mint silver to get gold in such a game..ugh.
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rrenaud

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2011, 05:14:08 pm »
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Opening Mint is like asking Variance to come over for tea and cakes.  Sure there will be some awesome perfect open games where you buy a million green cards by turn X but then a lot of times where you play draw/go during the early game while you're praying for your coppers to align (or buying copper, ewwww)

I am a fan of buying Mint in the mid game where Platinum/Colony are available.  You can clear out a bunch of silver/copper and start Minting fat stacks of Platinum.  That is indeed a worthy cause.  Then again a random warehouse or two may do a better job of winning the game than Mint in those situations.  Mint can only harm you when it's in your hand.  It only helps you a shuffle and draw later.

The problem with opening mint without support isn't high variance, it's just low expectation.  It mostly sucks.  Even the good outcomes are just okay.
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Zaphod

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2011, 05:17:56 pm »
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I opened Mint / Secret Chamber once.  The Venture was available.  Turn 3, I used Secret Chamber to get a Silver, and got a Venture as soon as possible, then started Minting it every chance I got.  My opponent was understandably unhappy that I drew a 5-2 split.
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drg

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2011, 08:49:55 pm »
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I only consider doing it when both pawn and peddler are in play.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2011, 02:21:05 am »
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So lighthouse, embargo, pawn, secret chamber. Basically in that order.
I could be wrong, but wouldn't SC be the best of these? Sure if you don't draw it you get a nothing turn, but it guarantees you $4, and the chance of drawing it on turn 3 is 5/7.

I guess the advantage of lighthouse and pawn is that if you only hit $2 you can buy more of them and build up to higher amounts. But embargo? If you happen to not both your embargo and at least one copper, you're left with buying another embargo...
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rspeer

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2011, 04:27:19 am »
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Well, the stats at http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Mint indicate that Lighthouse is most likely better (presumably because it's very likely to get you to $3, and you're not stuck with a Secret Chamber in your deck).

Mint / Secret Chamber is currently stuck in level 0 on the rankings, next to the nonsensical openings Mint/Curse and Mint/Chapel. It could in fact be better than the other Mint options, except few people have been bold enough to try it.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2011, 06:38:11 am »
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I'd suspect that few people have had the chance to try it. Not only do you need two very speific cards in the kingdom, but you also need to open 5/2 AND you need there not to be any better $5 cost cards available. I'd love to try Mint/SC, but I'm not going to do so if I open 5/2 with Mountebank/Witch/Wharf etc. available.
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DG

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2011, 07:44:38 am »
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One problem with the mint opening is that it can draw really badly. Even once the secret chamber adds silver to the deck, you can still draw {mint, estate, estate, copper, copper} repeatedly and go nowhere. Because those cards go into the discard pile together, with a really small deck they will also leave the discard pile together and keep grouping.
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michaeljb

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2011, 02:43:09 pm »
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An opponent's opening Bishop can (at least theoretically) be helpful.

I won with Mint/Lighthouse against Bishop/Fishing Village here, won with Mint/Secret Chamber against Bishop/Silver here, and defeated Mint/Copper using Bishop/Silver here.
Disclaimer: I haven't gone through the games re-evaluating them for sound play or anything, I just remembered opening Mint against Bishop before. Just glancing at the score and final decks, I think at least my Mint/Lighthouse game was solid - 40 points after 16 turns.

I've probably jumped at opening Mint a few too many times, but it can be fun. Just if you see Ambassador, don't get so excited about it's ability to get rid of Estates for you that you forget about becoming buried in them first. (I could swear I did this once but can't find the game...)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 02:45:40 pm by michaeljb »
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tlloyd

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Re: 5/2 split and mint..
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2011, 09:15:56 pm »
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Actually, it's not a horrible opening with the lighthouse, as you're extremely likely to get silver very quickly, and then the money starts rolling.

I think this misses the point a bit. In many games lighthouse is as good or better than silver, so you only need to get to $2, which is easy even when your deck is mostly estates. I would wait until I had a gold to use the mint. This deck would also be near-invincible to attacks, so it can be the right strategy even with strong $5 attacks available. I would only take a Pawn over Lighthouse if Peddlers are in the supply.

 A secret chamber gives you the best odds of gaining a silver quickly, but it is an overall weaker board for this strategy because it's not spammable. For that reason SC is beat out by all but Embargo. Embargo is only better if you think your opponent will eventually want a Mint, and you can make him take a curse for it.
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