Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks  (Read 8812 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1047
  • Respect: +843
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« on: April 29, 2012, 02:35:40 pm »
0

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/29/game-20120429-112207-7e191d1a.html

So this game I quickly decide to go for the good old Hunting Party-Monument. My opponent seems to have the same idea, but then starts buying Banks and Margraves. The first time he plays Bank, he does it before his other treasures so it's only worth $1. I pump the fist, because hey, free win!!! Then his Margrave engine starts to really hurt my Hunting Parties stack and I barely squeeze out the win. That was scary  :o After the game I tell him how Bank works and he's like, oh, I never played with any of these cards before except Village. Ouch, ego crushed...
Logged

Big Tuna

  • Swindler
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15
  • Respect: +8
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2012, 02:53:46 pm »
+6

Are you saying you didn't have the decency to inform him after the first time he made the mistake?
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2012, 02:57:16 pm »
0

Handsize reduction is pretty good against HP.

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1047
  • Respect: +843
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2012, 03:08:17 pm »
0

Are you saying you didn't have the decency to inform him after the first time he made the mistake?
I figured someone was going to bring this up and also one of the reasons why I posted this. It would be the nice thing to do, but competitive games are not about being nice. Opinions?
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2012, 03:09:14 pm »
0

Are you saying you didn't have the decency to inform him after the first time he made the mistake?
I figured someone was going to bring this up and also one of the reasons why I posted this. It would be the nice thing to do, but competitive games are not about being nice. Opinions?
I probably wouldn't after the first time. Probably after the second. But I don't have any problem with what you did.

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2623
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3322
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2012, 03:15:25 pm »
0

Hunting Party can run out of steam a bit on the last Province or two. I can recall getting beaten by Vineyards once because I just couldn't string it together for that last Province with my HPs. And yeah, Margrave was hurting you while Monuments allowed him to rack up points. So, he had a pretty nice counter to your plan up and running, even without playing Bank correctly. Interesting, though!
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

Big Tuna

  • Swindler
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15
  • Respect: +8
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2012, 03:28:14 pm »
0

If I was in a tournament, I'd keep it to myself and take the win just as you did. But when it comes to a random game on isotropic against a level 0 it's clear to me that they atleast aren't familiar with the interface and I'll tell them how to play Bank without any regard to its impact on my ranking. He'd have solidly beat you with those late Bank's when in one case he could have bought Province, Province, Duchy instead of Province, Duchy.  It does however take a big individual to post it here and let us know that it happened and Genau can receive some recognition for playing excellently against such a high level player. If he'd have just used some of those earlier banks to build that engine faster.
Logged

permanoob

  • Salvager
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • Respect: +29
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2012, 03:38:52 pm »
+1

I am always in favor of helping out noobs, even if they are permanoobs. I have had people insult me and call me an idiot for emptying the third pile by accident before my engine starts. I have also misclicked and bought the action card right next to the colony stack when I was in the lead and there was absolutely no reason for me not to buy colony. My opponent did not agree to resign and went on to take the victory. So I lost because of a twitch of my hand. That example is more ethically dubious I'll admit, but I for one would have resigned in his position. Geronimoo, if you aren't sure if you're behaving ethically, ask yourself if you would do the same thing in a real life game. No, you wouldn't.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7092
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9371
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2012, 05:20:21 pm »
0

Geronimoo, if you aren't sure if you're behaving ethically, ask yourself if you would do the same thing in a real life game. No, you wouldn't.

Well, except in a tournament situation.

Edit:  Woot!  19 seconds.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1047
  • Respect: +843
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2012, 05:20:40 pm »
+1

If this happened in a competitive tournament in a real life game, I wouldn't even have considered telling the player during the game. I think it's what winning players do, they'll take any edge they can (within the rules of the game).
Logged

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +746
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2012, 05:24:22 pm »
0

If this happened in a competitive tournament in a real life game, I wouldn't even have considered telling the player during the game. I think it's what winning players do, they'll take any edge they can (within the rules of the game).
I have to agree here. If you are in a tournament, the main reason why you are there is because you want to win. In a real life situation, though, absolutely.
Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2028
  • Respect: +1295
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2012, 05:29:47 pm »
+1

Playing on iso is a lot more like, in my mind, just playing a friendly game than playing in a tournament. In a tournament, of course I'd never consider it. In a friendly game, I would.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 05:38:25 pm »
0

Playing on iso is a lot more like, in my mind, just playing a friendly game than playing in a tournament. In a tournament, of course I'd never consider it. In a friendly game, I would.

And I see iso as a competitive environment more. Maybe not like world championship tournament but...
I mean, when I play a chess game at the local club, my opponent makes a move and forgets to hit his clock, I don't point it out.
Unless the game's basically over and it's really a big waste of time to drag it out.

Big Tuna

  • Swindler
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15
  • Respect: +8
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2012, 05:46:35 pm »
0

If I was in a tournament, I'd keep it to myself and take the win just as you did.

The issue with playing online is in a way your always competing to get to the top of the leaderboard (or maybe not, but I generally want to push to the top) so it not exactly like play at home with family and friends where a game has no implication on you 'World Ranking'. That said here inlies the difference between sportsman ship and gamesmanship. The gamesman will use every edge to win at all cost. The sportsman would like to see fully informed competitors battle and see who was the best on that occassion.

But let's put this into a tournament situation. As the sportsman do you reveal the error and let the noob go on to win even though he'll likely be no competition to his next opponent? Or do you use the advantage, as Geronimoo did, and advance to the next round? If I was in his position in a tournament then I don't want to get knocked out of the tournament and I'm likely to be the better competition for the next round opponent. It would be difficult for me to reveal that error and not go on to 'victory'.

edit for typo
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 05:49:13 pm by Big Tuna »
Logged

permanoob

  • Salvager
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • Respect: +29
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2012, 06:41:50 pm »
+2

What's the point of a ranking system if it doesn't reflect skill at the game? There are minor things like misclicks and 5/2 versus 4/3 splits that can uneven the odds in a way that has little connection to the game. We should try to minimize these effects. The line between game-mistake and unavoidable fluke/bad interaction with the user interface of iso is not a hard distinction to make. Having an opponent forget to set the timer isn't the same as your opponent not knowing where the button on the timer is because it's their first time playing. Or what if the timer was broken in your favor? Just take your victory and move on right?

There are more important things than winning. Play for fun :)!
Logged

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +746
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2012, 06:45:39 pm »
+2

What's the point of a ranking system if it doesn't reflect skill at the game? There are minor things like misclicks and 5/2 versus 4/3 splits that can uneven the odds in a way that has little connection to the game. We should try to minimize these effects. The line between game-mistake and unavoidable fluke/bad interaction with the user interface of iso is not a hard distinction to make. Having an opponent forget to set the timer isn't the same as your opponent not knowing where the button on the timer is because it's their first time playing. Or what if the timer was broken in your favor? Just take your victory and move on right?

There are more important things than winning. Play for fun :)!
I agree. Isn't that why Dominion was invented? So that poeple could have fun?
Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

permanoob

  • Salvager
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • Respect: +29
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2012, 06:59:48 pm »
+1

What's the point of a ranking system if it doesn't reflect skill at the game? There are minor things like misclicks and 5/2 versus 4/3 splits that can uneven the odds in a way that has little connection to the game. We should try to minimize these effects. The line between game-mistake and unavoidable fluke/bad interaction with the user interface of iso is not a hard distinction to make. Having an opponent forget to set the timer isn't the same as your opponent not knowing where the button on the timer is because it's their first time playing. Or what if the timer was broken in your favor? Just take your victory and move on right?

There are more important things than winning. Play for fun :)!
I agree. Isn't that why Dominion was invented? So that poeple could have fun?
Morgrim7 is a great guy and we agree on a lot of things, but I promise he isn't my sockpuppet account.
Logged

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +746
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2012, 07:13:05 pm »
0

What's the point of a ranking system if it doesn't reflect skill at the game? There are minor things like misclicks and 5/2 versus 4/3 splits that can uneven the odds in a way that has little connection to the game. We should try to minimize these effects. The line between game-mistake and unavoidable fluke/bad interaction with the user interface of iso is not a hard distinction to make. Having an opponent forget to set the timer isn't the same as your opponent not knowing where the button on the timer is because it's their first time playing. Or what if the timer was broken in your favor? Just take your victory and move on right?

There are more important things than winning. Play for fun :)!
I agree. Isn't that why Dominion was invented? So that poeple could have fun?
Morgrim7 is a great guy and we agree on a lot of things, but I promise he isn't my sockpuppet account.
Oops... Have I been posting too much?  :-[. And no, I'm not a sockpuppet account.
Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

permanoob

  • Salvager
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • Respect: +29
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2012, 08:06:13 pm »
+2

What's the point of a ranking system if it doesn't reflect skill at the game? There are minor things like misclicks and 5/2 versus 4/3 splits that can uneven the odds in a way that has little connection to the game. We should try to minimize these effects. The line between game-mistake and unavoidable fluke/bad interaction with the user interface of iso is not a hard distinction to make. Having an opponent forget to set the timer isn't the same as your opponent not knowing where the button on the timer is because it's their first time playing. Or what if the timer was broken in your favor? Just take your victory and move on right?

There are more important things than winning. Play for fun :)!
I agree. Isn't that why Dominion was invented? So that poeple could have fun?
Morgrim7 is a great guy and we agree on a lot of things, but I promise he isn't my sockpuppet account.
Oops... Have I been posting too much?  :-[. And no, I'm not a sockpuppet account.
You haven't been posting too much. You've been posting too awesomely!
Logged

Eevee

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1008
  • Shuffle iT Username: Eevee
  • A wild Eevee appears!
  • Respect: +863
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2012, 09:53:16 pm »
+1

Are you saying you didn't have the decency to inform him after the first time he made the mistake?
I figured someone was going to bring this up and also one of the reasons why I posted this. It would be the nice thing to do, but competitive games are not about being nice. Opinions?
I would def def point it out the first time, not even close.
... still wouldnt blame anyone for not doing that though, to each his own imo.
Logged

timchen

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 704
  • Shuffle iT Username: allfail
  • Respect: +233
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 05:06:55 am »
0

Playing on iso is a lot more like, in my mind, just playing a friendly game than playing in a tournament. In a tournament, of course I'd never consider it. In a friendly game, I would.

And I see iso as a competitive environment more. Maybe not like world championship tournament but...
I mean, when I play a chess game at the local club, my opponent makes a move and forgets to hit his clock, I don't point it out.
Unless the game's basically over and it's really a big waste of time to drag it out.
This is ridiculous. So is the open post.

What defines a competitive environment?

Do you get paid or prizes if you win? Ok, if you can get something material out from the win then it is understandable. But in that case, I would also have a desire to play opponents as weak as possible.

If there is no prizes or pay check, I imagine the point of play is to show that I am in some way better than my opponent. In this case, is it meaningful to show your opponent that you are better because you know you should play the banks last? Or in a chess game, that you can pay better attention to the clock?

Seriously, I'll do anything I can do to stop my opponent from losing meaninglessly on isotropic. Otherwise, there are better ways to spend my time.
Logged

O

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 836
  • Respect: +602
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2012, 05:41:50 am »
0

What defines a competitive environment?

Do you get paid or prizes if you win? Ok, if you can get something material out from the win then it is understandable. But in that case, I would also have a desire to play opponents as weak as possible.

If there is no prizes or pay check, I imagine the point of play is to show that I am in some way better than my opponent. In this case, is it meaningful to show your opponent that you are better because you know you should play the banks last? Or in a chess game, that you can pay better attention to the clock?

Seriously, I'll do anything I can do to stop my opponent from losing meaninglessly on isotropic. Otherwise, there are better ways to spend my time.

This. Earlier today I went as far as to describe to my opponent how to end the game on their turn on a win (I was pretty hopelessly lost and didn't want it dragged out due to some time-consuming cards).

Also in our chess club (which offers nominal prizes that top out probably at 30$) it'd be considered pretty rude to not point out a running clock. We play 2hours/person, and only oh, 10% of games really go down to time constraints. Having your opponents clock run is an exercise in futility and a waste for the most part.

We don't have competitive blitz.. but in noncompetitive blitz, same story... not that many people really forget to hit their clocks in blitz.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 08:26:32 am »
+1

Playing on iso is a lot more like, in my mind, just playing a friendly game than playing in a tournament. In a tournament, of course I'd never consider it. In a friendly game, I would.

And I see iso as a competitive environment more. Maybe not like world championship tournament but...
I mean, when I play a chess game at the local club, my opponent makes a move and forgets to hit his clock, I don't point it out.
Unless the game's basically over and it's really a big waste of time to drag it out.
This is ridiculous. So is the open post.


I'm fine with your point of view. But it's a little ridiculous to say that my position is ridiculous. Different from yours, yes. Wrong, well I don't think so obviously, but I'd be ok if you were claiming that.

Thing is, almost every environment where there's a game being played is, to an extent, competitive. On iso, I don't know the people, and the conversation is very often at a minimum. If they're chatting with me, I'm more likely to point something like this out. If they ask, I will certainly point something like this out. Somehow, it depends on my mood, too. I was trying to give someone advice yesterday to get duchies before dukes (well, he was going provinces, I was going duchy/duke, and he was planning on upgrading duke->gold at some point, but it never materialized). Well, he didn't listen. But you know, I didn't do this for a while, until after I was quite confident I was winning. It can be a bit arrogant to say something earlier, because man, I'm pretty sure that's a terrible strategy, but you know, I'm not the be-all and end-all of dominion. Technically it's actually against the rules in the chess sense to point this out, and there are many instances where people knowingly don't hit their clock for oh, up to a minute, thinking. And it's definitely illegal to just move without them having hit their clock, not that people usually care. I mean, in the bank case it's a little more clear-cut I guess. But still, for me, iso is a competitive environment, I don't know, because I play with high-quality competition all the time, close to my skill level, who know generally what they're doing, and it's very much an all-out grind to win. Probably for most people, this isn't the case.
By the way, there's almost always some kind of prize up for grabs. On iso, it's rating points, which you may think are worthless, but I think are... almost worthless. At the chess tournaments, it's generally a quite small amount of money. There really aren't tournaments, at least around here, without cash prizes, except for children. But ok, I think even in the competitive setting, I try to give them some advice at some point, just usually not on the first time, because the first time I'm going to assume it's a mistake (or sometimes that they're doing it on purpose for whatever reason), and that I'm being a little bit imposing to point this out. Repeated behaviour makes me think they don't know, so I'll tell them. Of course, Geronimoo points it out at the end of the game here, so ok, I think that's fine.
"I imagine the point of play is to show that I am in some way better than my opponent" I don't think this is really the case, by and large. But to the extent that it is... how is them misplaying banks not a way for them to be worse than you? I mean, yeah, it's not special skill from you being better, but neither is them buying estates on turns 1-2. Neither is a chess player walking into an opening trap that gets them mated or hanging a piece. But I don't think I've ever pointed these things out, except at the end of very long, super-casual games with my close friends. And even there, we stop to count the win, then keep playing to see who would have won without that blunder.

paddyodoors

  • Guest
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 10:10:48 am »
+5

Some good points made by many people already.  With all due deference and respect to the previous posters, I say:

Outside the game, the goal of playing a game is to have fun.
Within the game, the goal of the game is to win.
Conflating these two, distinct points does not help internet discussions.


There is nothing unjust about allowing a player to play as he wishes, even if it seems that it is an "obvious" case of inexperience.  Unmerciful? possibly... Unkind? possibly... Uncivilized? possibly... Selfish? possibly...  -- but not unjust.  Justice, that ultimate standard of giving to each his due, is not a question of politeness, niceties, or donated advice.

Just because someone isn't a Good Guy Greg doesn't mean that he's a Scumbag Steve.  There is a real and sincere tendency to absolutize people's actions into either simply "good" or simply "bad."  In this case, I judge Geronimoo's inaction (or delayed action) as neither.  YMMV.
Logged

ecq

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 224
  • Respect: +158
    • View Profile
Re: How I was almost crushed by a n00b with $1 Banks
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 12:38:54 pm »
0

Normally I err on the side of helping the other guy out in the case of rules misunderstandings, but there's one big thing here that would make me hesitate:

Code: [Select]
Genau plays a Bank.
... which is worth +$1.

It's written right there in the log.  I remember doing that when I was starting out.  Once.  After the first time, you say "WTF, where's all my money?" and you don't do that again.  In this case, all of the numbers are right in front of you: the value of the Bank, the number of treasures in hand, and the number of coins you have once all is said and done.  Further, Isotropic tries to help you play things in the right order.  If you're not paying attention enough to to notice that you're coming up $13 short (turn 16), it goes beyond a simple rules understanding and into player error territory.  In a just world, that should be a game-deciding blunder.

I do help people when things are confusing.  I played a guy who kept revealing Traders after buying Provinces.  I assumed the first time was a misclick, and pointed out the rules after the second time (and got told off for doing it, after which point he continued to do it, sigh).  In that case, the rules can be confusing and it's hard to notice the mistake in-game.  In the case of Bank, it's hard not to notice the problem, which shifts the burden in my mind.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.142 seconds with 20 queries.