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[coops]

Surely buying up all Victory cards rather than playing is a loophole that needs to be shut? Can someone lead me to a thread on this. So boring to play with someone who does this. Thanks

[Grujah]

Could you elaborate, I am not sure if I get what you mean?

I guess this is it, as this is a common new player error:
You can't really make an (infinite) loop in Dominion, actions that you play do not go to discard immediately, they stay "on table" until the end of the turn, only then are they discards. So you can re-draw already played actions.

[coops]

I meant loophole in games rules.  The game can be finished quickly by a player, usually new player, who just plays his hand buying up all the Victory cards and wins.  Does that make sense? I am a new player, I did it and won first time, then I started to play properly , tried to teach 8 year old and he did the same as I did buying up all Victory cards and he won. Can you lead me to a thread, I believe there is a discussion on this somewhere? Or maybe , as I myself said, it is plain silly to use that strategy!! Thanks.

[DStu]

I'm almost certain you make a mistake with the rules. I don't see how you can just buy up all the Victory cards otherwise quickly. So how do the games go exactly?

You start your first hand with say $4 and buy? Certainly not a Victorycard, as the only one you can afford is an Estate, and you don't win with just Estates.
Second hand is a $3, and you buy? Again an Estate?

You will never get to $5, let alone $8 with that. So you buy something else instead of Victories, or you don't play by the rules...

[Thisisnotasmile]

Sounds to me like you play your $4 and buy 8 Provinces. Sounds like a good strategy.

[Galzria]

I believe you are talking about the difference between what is called "big money (BM)", where all you do is buy treasure and VP cards, and an engine, where you use the 10 kingdom cards to produce a faster strategy? (This is, of course, an overs implication). Am I correct?

If all you have is the Base set, Big Money (or Big Money + X, where X is 1 kingdom card), will usually be dominant. There are few boards where it will fall to an "engine". This is largely due to the general flavor of Base cards. Nothing strings together quickly enough to beat 18 (BM) turns, or BMX (often Smithy) in 14 turns.

The best advice if you want to move away from that into more complicated play, is to grab a few expansions. Intrigue allows for some basic engines, seaside gets fun (try fishing village and wharf).

If there is a misunderstanding in the rules though, it would help to know exactly how you are currently playing. Your turn starts with 5 cards. You may play one action, and you have one buy. You may play any or all of your treasures, add up their value, and purchase 1 card costing up to that value. All treasures in play, your hand, and new bought cards go into your discard, and you draw 5 new cards. When your deck runs out and you can no longer draw, you reshuffle your discard.

Any card action that gives $, provides it for that turn only, and is counted with your treasure in the buy phase. Any action that gives you + X action, allows you to play that many more actions this turn, and any action that gives +draw makes you draw those cards immediately.

[DStu]

Sounds to me like you play your $4 and buy 8 Provinces. Sounds like a good strategy.

maybe their table was not programmed correctly and does not check if they are allowed to take provinces...

[coops]

You use copper to buy silver and gold collecting more money as you go along your hand is nearly always Buy Money with very little action.

[Galzria]

You use copper to buy silver and gold collecting more money as you go along your hand is nearly always Buy Money with very little action.

That's what I thought. See the first half of my first post.

[Brando Commando]

If you doubt Galzria, just go to isotropic and play a few games and you'll see that the game is much more complicated.

[Galzria]

Here's a good thread

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1500.0

[Kirian]

Also, theory's article about what BM and BM+X are:

http://dominionstrategy.com/big-money/

[Kuildeous]

In general, Big Money works against inexperienced players. In a new gaming group, that's all you have. So, you have some enterprising player trying to play fun engine decks, only to get stomped by Boring Bobby, who does nothing but Big Money.

If that keeps up, then the enterprising player gives up on making an engine and tries a Big Money deck. He finds that it works about 50% of the time, which is what you would expect with Big Money vs. Big Money. That player may conclude that Big Money is the best option and not bother trying to enhance the engine.

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

[rspeer]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

[WanderingWinder]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

[Kirian]

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible

Hey now, it's only 6.5 quadrillion.

[CoheedandCambria]

Check your decimals, Kirian it's a loooot more. Plus there are different black market decks and also colony/no colony games.

[GendoIkari]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

Did they? That was my thread so I'm quite interested; I was under the impression that no one ever quite found a solution.

[WanderingWinder]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

Did they? That was my thread so I'm quite interested; I was under the impression that no one ever quite found a solution.

I believe that any combination of these cards nets less than a tenth of a percent improvement over BMU, without other support:
Oasis
Trade route
Village
Fishing Village
Worker's Village
Farming Village
Throne Room
Scout
City
Border Village
King's Court
Golem
Counting House

Probably you can throw more in, too. In many cases, university, alchemist, and a bunch of other cards work here, too.

[Grujah]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

Did they? That was my thread so I'm quite interested; I was under the impression that no one ever quite found a solution.

Of top of my head:
Village, Walled Village, Border Village, Scheme, Stash, Feast, Golem, Throneroom, Secret Chamber, Quarry?

Oh, I see I've been beaten, anyway..
@WV - Trade Route gives you +Buys and of your opponent gets Duchy and Estate early (who knows why ) .. its not THAT horrible. A single Counting House, if you don't trash any Copper, is worth, on average, 3.5$ (that is, on average case it is in middle of the deck and on average case there is 3.5 copper in one half of the deck), so if you hit 5 its better than Silver. Or am I wrong here?

[jonts26]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

Did they? That was my thread so I'm quite interested; I was under the impression that no one ever quite found a solution.

Of top of my head:
Village, Walled Village, Border Village, Scheme, Stash, Feast, Golem, Throneroom, Secret Chamber, Quarry?

Oh, I see I've been beaten, anyway..
@WV - Trade Route gives you +Buys and of your opponent gets Duchy and Estate early (who knows why ) .. maybe it's not horrible  . A single Counting House, if you don't trash any Copper, is worth, on average, 3.5$ (that is, on average case it is in middle of the deck and on average case there is 3.5 copper in one half of the deck), so if you hit 5 its better than Silver. Or am I wrong here?

You're wrong on counting house. It's worth less than that because even if you do draw it in the middle of your deck, you also draw coppers in that hand too. So its only good for how many coppers were on the previous hands, which is less than 3.5 on average. Additionally, because of partial hands at the end of a shuffle, CH (or any card) has a chance of missing the shuffle thus it is slightly more likely to come earlier in the shuffle, further reducing its value.

[WanderingWinder]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

Did they? That was my thread so I'm quite interested; I was under the impression that no one ever quite found a solution.

Of top of my head:
Village, Walled Village, Border Village, Scheme, Stash, Feast, Golem, Throneroom, Secret Chamber, Quarry?

Oh, I see I've been beaten, anyway..
@WV - Trade Route gives you +Buys and of your opponent gets Duchy and Estate early (who knows why ) .. its not THAT horrible. A single Counting House, if you don't trash any Copper, is worth, on average, 3.5$ (that is, on average case it is in middle of the deck and on average case there is 3.5 copper in one half of the deck), so if you hit 5 its better than Silver. Or am I wrong here?

You are wrong there on the counting house, as jonts explains.
And trade route isn't necessarily THAT bad... but it's worse than silver. Seriously, you have to trash something, which by the way, when you're doing it this slowly with no engine in sight, isn't really a good thing, or at least not much of one, and it's going to give you the value of silver... not until very late. If your opponent goes green so early, you're winning anyway. Not that trade route isn't sometimes worth it. But on these boards, it isn't. Also, you're never going to have enough money for the +buy to really matter.

[Kirian]

Check your decimals, Kirian it's a loooot more. Plus there are different black market decks and also colony/no colony games.

I don't think "different things in the Black Market" really counts as a way of counting kingdoms, mainly because one can create, for any board with Black Market, more than 36! different Black Markets--just because Iso picks 25 doesn't mean that's what you have to do at home.  Even just allowing for Iso's possibilities, this almost squares the number of kingdoms; allowing for any number of cards nearly cubes the number of possible kingdoms.

Basically, including all the different possibilities in the Black Market, even with just Iso rules is equivalent to saying that more than 99.99999999999% of possible kingdoms contain a Black Market.  Ignoring Iso rules is saying that 99.999999999999999999999999% have Black Market.  It's an exercise in silliness.

As for the rest, the number is about 1.8 quadrillion if you ignore Young Witch and Colonies, 2.1 quadrillion with Colonies (which only adds one extra kingdom possibility to <20% of kingdoms), and about 6.8 quadrillion when accounting for Young Witch.

[Kirian]

I believe that any combination of these cards nets less than a tenth of a percent improvement over BMU, without other support:
Oasis
Trade route
Village
Fishing Village
Worker's Village
Farming Village
Throne Room
Scout
City
Border Village
King's Court
Golem
Counting House

Hrm, Oasis gives about a 0.6% boost... if you limit yourself to exactly one of them.

[michaeljb]

Mods, is there any way to force new users to read theory's BM article? Sure people would probably lie about it (like most end-user agreements), but maybe it would work, and if not, they would learn why it was a requirement before long...

[jonts26]

It's one of the points in the FAQ thread.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1994.0

[michaeljb]

True, and that's good, but even though it's in the FAQ I still like it's....frequently asked...

[michaeljb]

And now I've made a meme about it.

[Davio]

I love these topics, they remind me of me some time ago.

[michaeljb]

I love these topics, they remind me of me some time ago.

This reminds me of theory...I was really surprised when I read that he had once thought Big Money was the best. Don't remember where I read this though...maybe his AMA on reddit?

[greatexpectations]

True, and that's good, but even though it's in the FAQ I still like it's....frequently asked...

well to be fair i have just about all of the known information about the official online version in that thread too. it hasn't stopped that discussion from popping up again. 

if you have any ideas for reformatting the FAQ in a way that we can try to minimize this sort of thing i am all ears.  but the reality is that some users just won't read it or search for it.  and of course some will actually go and read through it but they will still want to ask their questions.

[theory]

Mods, is there any way to force new users to read theory's BM article? Sure people would probably lie about it (like most end-user agreements), but maybe it would work, and if not, they would learn why it was a requirement before long...

Hehe.  I don't think this is a worthwhile endeavor.  There will be people floating around with wrongheaded notions, and we just have to accept that.  Someone who thinks Dominion is broken because of money is preferable to someone who thinks vaccines cause autism.

I used to be one of these people.  I played 1k games of base Dominion on BSW, and money does kind of dominate the base game.

[Jfrisch]

So, I want to make the point that there is a TREMENDOUS difference between Theory, after 1000 games, having determined that Money focused strategies are fairly dominant in the base game, and the assertion's people make to these types of requests. In particular the realization that occurs after, say, a dozen games that, WOW buying only money stomps buying actions willy-nilly, is on a very different level than a master saying, you know, after having played a tremendous number of games, I've explored most of the strategy space here and determined that Money strategies are superior to engine strategies more often than I would like.

In particular, I find it frustrating that as soon as somebody makes the important but relatively basic observation that the goal of the game is to buy victory points and that money is an efficient way of doing so the community harps on and claims that expansions are the necessary fix. No, no they are not. Base game is not solved as soon as somebody realizes that big money smithy is a good idea. The beginner's "money is always dominant" and Donald X's buy a select few actions are not the same point.

      If the people asking these questions were saying "we've played the base game and realized that, though there exist exceptions made possible by cards like throne room and chapel, the majority of strategies involve buying relatively few terminals and we've played enough that we can figure out what these terminals before the game starts and what non-terminals are worth getting over silver with them" then yes, they're done with the base game, and hurray for expansions. I suspect a point like this can come well before theory's 1000 games and maybe after as few as a hundred games, the base game might feel somewhat stale. If they are bored because they've thoroughly explored game space, by all means recommend expansions.

That's not what's going on with these BM rules all post, they haven't explored  game-space they don't know the exceptions, and they follow BM to the letter to a ridiculous extent (I'll take another silver rather than a festival). Unless a player seriously seems like they've figured out most of the base game it is disingenuous and wrong to confirm their fears that Big money is absolutely dominant. Remember: what you think of when you think of big money and what they think of are a world apart.

[rrenaud]

We should just lock and redirect the big money threads to one canonical big money thread.  Instead of having the same argument every time something like this gets posted.  Stackoverflow does this well.

[theory]

Well, you also have to remember that most games do not feature the depth that Dominion has.  When I play a new game a dozen times (far more than most people ever play most games), and discover a very strong strategy, it is much more likely that the strategy really is very strong, than the game having thousands-of-games-of-depth.

Our mission here (should we choose to accept it) is not to belittle someone for not bothering to find out that BM is beatable, but to show them that Dominion is not like those other games and has meaning even thousands of games later.

[Jfrisch]

To confirm, the people who I find annoying are those who recommend expansions in order to get beyond the "wow money is really good" phase of learning rather than the posters themselves who, understandably, don't get that there is strategy beyond that.

[Kuildeous]

This reminds me of theory...I was really surprised when I read that he had once thought Big Money was the best. Don't remember where I read this though...maybe his AMA on reddit?

He posted it here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2376.msg37360#msg37360

</tardis>

[qmech]

I played 1k games of base Dominion on BSW

You poor thing.  You have my sympathy.

Also, in before the 9th Doctor.

[michaeljb]

This reminds me of theory...I was really surprised when I read that he had once thought Big Money was the best. Don't remember where I read this though...maybe his AMA on reddit?

He posted it here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2376.msg37360#msg37360

</tardis>

Funny, I see I already +1'd it but couldn't remember where it was :p