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[coops]

Surely buying up all Victory cards rather than playing is a loophole that needs to be shut? Can someone lead me to a thread on this. So boring to play with someone who does this. Thanks

[Grujah]

Could you elaborate, I am not sure if I get what you mean?

I guess this is it, as this is a common new player error:
You can't really make an (infinite) loop in Dominion, actions that you play do not go to discard immediately, they stay "on table" until the end of the turn, only then are they discards. So you can re-draw already played actions.

[coops]

I meant loophole in games rules.  The game can be finished quickly by a player, usually new player, who just plays his hand buying up all the Victory cards and wins.  Does that make sense? I am a new player, I did it and won first time, then I started to play properly , tried to teach 8 year old and he did the same as I did buying up all Victory cards and he won. Can you lead me to a thread, I believe there is a discussion on this somewhere? Or maybe , as I myself said, it is plain silly to use that strategy!! Thanks.

[DStu]

I'm almost certain you make a mistake with the rules. I don't see how you can just buy up all the Victory cards otherwise quickly. So how do the games go exactly?

You start your first hand with say $4 and buy? Certainly not a Victorycard, as the only one you can afford is an Estate, and you don't win with just Estates.
Second hand is a $3, and you buy? Again an Estate?

You will never get to $5, let alone $8 with that. So you buy something else instead of Victories, or you don't play by the rules...

[Thisisnotasmile]

Sounds to me like you play your $4 and buy 8 Provinces. Sounds like a good strategy.

[Galzria]

I believe you are talking about the difference between what is called "big money (BM)", where all you do is buy treasure and VP cards, and an engine, where you use the 10 kingdom cards to produce a faster strategy? (This is, of course, an overs implication). Am I correct?

If all you have is the Base set, Big Money (or Big Money + X, where X is 1 kingdom card), will usually be dominant. There are few boards where it will fall to an "engine". This is largely due to the general flavor of Base cards. Nothing strings together quickly enough to beat 18 (BM) turns, or BMX (often Smithy) in 14 turns.

The best advice if you want to move away from that into more complicated play, is to grab a few expansions. Intrigue allows for some basic engines, seaside gets fun (try fishing village and wharf).

If there is a misunderstanding in the rules though, it would help to know exactly how you are currently playing. Your turn starts with 5 cards. You may play one action, and you have one buy. You may play any or all of your treasures, add up their value, and purchase 1 card costing up to that value. All treasures in play, your hand, and new bought cards go into your discard, and you draw 5 new cards. When your deck runs out and you can no longer draw, you reshuffle your discard.

Any card action that gives $, provides it for that turn only, and is counted with your treasure in the buy phase. Any action that gives you + X action, allows you to play that many more actions this turn, and any action that gives +draw makes you draw those cards immediately.

[DStu]

Sounds to me like you play your $4 and buy 8 Provinces. Sounds like a good strategy.

maybe their table was not programmed correctly and does not check if they are allowed to take provinces...

[coops]

You use copper to buy silver and gold collecting more money as you go along your hand is nearly always Buy Money with very little action.

[Galzria]

You use copper to buy silver and gold collecting more money as you go along your hand is nearly always Buy Money with very little action.

That's what I thought. See the first half of my first post.

[Brando Commando]

If you doubt Galzria, just go to isotropic and play a few games and you'll see that the game is much more complicated.

[Galzria]

Here's a good thread

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1500.0

[Kirian]

Also, theory's article about what BM and BM+X are:

http://dominionstrategy.com/big-money/

[Kuildeous]

In general, Big Money works against inexperienced players. In a new gaming group, that's all you have. So, you have some enterprising player trying to play fun engine decks, only to get stomped by Boring Bobby, who does nothing but Big Money.

If that keeps up, then the enterprising player gives up on making an engine and tries a Big Money deck. He finds that it works about 50% of the time, which is what you would expect with Big Money vs. Big Money. That player may conclude that Big Money is the best option and not bother trying to enhance the engine.

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

[rspeer]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

[WanderingWinder]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

[Kirian]

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible

Hey now, it's only 6.5 quadrillion.

[CoheedandCambria]

Check your decimals, Kirian it's a loooot more. Plus there are different black market decks and also colony/no colony games.

[GendoIkari]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

Did they? That was my thread so I'm quite interested; I was under the impression that no one ever quite found a solution.

[WanderingWinder]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

Did they? That was my thread so I'm quite interested; I was under the impression that no one ever quite found a solution.

I believe that any combination of these cards nets less than a tenth of a percent improvement over BMU, without other support:
Oasis
Trade route
Village
Fishing Village
Worker's Village
Farming Village
Throne Room
Scout
City
Border Village
King's Court
Golem
Counting House

Probably you can throw more in, too. In many cases, university, alchemist, and a bunch of other cards work here, too.

[Grujah]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

Did they? That was my thread so I'm quite interested; I was under the impression that no one ever quite found a solution.

Of top of my head:
Village, Walled Village, Border Village, Scheme, Stash, Feast, Golem, Throneroom, Secret Chamber, Quarry?

Oh, I see I've been beaten, anyway..
@WV - Trade Route gives you +Buys and of your opponent gets Duchy and Estate early (who knows why ) .. its not THAT horrible. A single Counting House, if you don't trash any Copper, is worth, on average, 3.5$ (that is, on average case it is in middle of the deck and on average case there is 3.5 copper in one half of the deck), so if you hit 5 its better than Silver. Or am I wrong here?

[jonts26]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

Did they? That was my thread so I'm quite interested; I was under the impression that no one ever quite found a solution.

Of top of my head:
Village, Walled Village, Border Village, Scheme, Stash, Feast, Golem, Throneroom, Secret Chamber, Quarry?

Oh, I see I've been beaten, anyway..
@WV - Trade Route gives you +Buys and of your opponent gets Duchy and Estate early (who knows why ) .. maybe it's not horrible  . A single Counting House, if you don't trash any Copper, is worth, on average, 3.5$ (that is, on average case it is in middle of the deck and on average case there is 3.5 copper in one half of the deck), so if you hit 5 its better than Silver. Or am I wrong here?

You're wrong on counting house. It's worth less than that because even if you do draw it in the middle of your deck, you also draw coppers in that hand too. So its only good for how many coppers were on the previous hands, which is less than 3.5 on average. Additionally, because of partial hands at the end of a shuffle, CH (or any card) has a chance of missing the shuffle thus it is slightly more likely to come earlier in the shuffle, further reducing its value.

[WanderingWinder]

Experienced players recognize this and know how to build engines that can beat Big Money. And sometimes the Kingdom cards are such that Big Money really is the dominant strategy.

You're probably referring to Big Money + X there, because Big Money itself is basically never the dominant strategy. I recall there was a thread for a while where people tried to come up with a kingdom where BM actually was the dominant strategy, and I don't think anyone succeeded. No matter how useless you attempt to make the ten kingdom cards, there will be one of them that improves your deck.

Also, coops, if Big Money keeps winning, you might not be playing enough attacks. Do you feel bad about attacking the 8-year-old you're playing against? Come on, he figured out Big Money, he's ready for what's coming.

Oh no, people succeeded. But the point is, there's probably only a few hundred such kingdoms out of the... zillions that are possible to get.It goes up to maybe .01% if you add in kingdom treasures, up to maybe a tenth of a percent or two if you also add alternate VPs.

Edit: sanity check on numbers.

Did they? That was my thread so I'm quite interested; I was under the impression that no one ever quite found a solution.

Of top of my head:
Village, Walled Village, Border Village, Scheme, Stash, Feast, Golem, Throneroom, Secret Chamber, Quarry?

Oh, I see I've been beaten, anyway..
@WV - Trade Route gives you +Buys and of your opponent gets Duchy and Estate early (who knows why ) .. its not THAT horrible. A single Counting House, if you don't trash any Copper, is worth, on average, 3.5$ (that is, on average case it is in middle of the deck and on average case there is 3.5 copper in one half of the deck), so if you hit 5 its better than Silver. Or am I wrong here?

You are wrong there on the counting house, as jonts explains.
And trade route isn't necessarily THAT bad... but it's worse than silver. Seriously, you have to trash something, which by the way, when you're doing it this slowly with no engine in sight, isn't really a good thing, or at least not much of one, and it's going to give you the value of silver... not until very late. If your opponent goes green so early, you're winning anyway. Not that trade route isn't sometimes worth it. But on these boards, it isn't. Also, you're never going to have enough money for the +buy to really matter.

[Kirian]

Check your decimals, Kirian it's a loooot more. Plus there are different black market decks and also colony/no colony games.

I don't think "different things in the Black Market" really counts as a way of counting kingdoms, mainly because one can create, for any board with Black Market, more than 36! different Black Markets--just because Iso picks 25 doesn't mean that's what you have to do at home.  Even just allowing for Iso's possibilities, this almost squares the number of kingdoms; allowing for any number of cards nearly cubes the number of possible kingdoms.

Basically, including all the different possibilities in the Black Market, even with just Iso rules is equivalent to saying that more than 99.99999999999% of possible kingdoms contain a Black Market.  Ignoring Iso rules is saying that 99.999999999999999999999999% have Black Market.  It's an exercise in silliness.

As for the rest, the number is about 1.8 quadrillion if you ignore Young Witch and Colonies, 2.1 quadrillion with Colonies (which only adds one extra kingdom possibility to <20% of kingdoms), and about 6.8 quadrillion when accounting for Young Witch.

[Kirian]

I believe that any combination of these cards nets less than a tenth of a percent improvement over BMU, without other support:
Oasis
Trade route
Village
Fishing Village
Worker's Village
Farming Village
Throne Room
Scout
City
Border Village
King's Court
Golem
Counting House

Hrm, Oasis gives about a 0.6% boost... if you limit yourself to exactly one of them.

[michaeljb]

Mods, is there any way to force new users to read theory's BM article? Sure people would probably lie about it (like most end-user agreements), but maybe it would work, and if not, they would learn why it was a requirement before long...