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[ShuffleNCut]

Peddler
Goons
Hoard
Nobles
Tactician
Torturer
Venture
Chancellor
Woodcutter
University

Pretty sure I picked the absolute worst strategy with University//Torturer with some tactician support.  What's your strategy and what adjustments do you make if your opponent tries various options?

[jimjam]

I'd go Torturer/Nobles with one Tactician until Nobles were empty, then Goons/Peddler? I don't know if that would be right though.

[kn1tt3r]

I'd open Silver/Potion (or even Chancellor/Potion to accerlate) to go University/Torturer and then heavy Goons/Peddler, basically trying to end it on piles with a significant VP token lead. I see no point in going green here. Since most of my money will be based on +$ Tactician (like 1-2) sounds like a good idea too.

[ShuffleNCut]

For added info, I'm second with 3:4 and he had 4:3.

Opponent opens:
Silver
Woodcutter
Silver
Goons
Torturer

I open:
Silver
Potion
And then get 4:3 again on turns three and four followed by 7+P on turn five.


In game I only managed to get five Uni's before I had to start trying to catch up on VP.  I think I made a mistake in not buying Nobles to help the engine and then another mistake buying green cards thus accelerating the end of the game with me two-three provinces down.  I should have moved on to goons sooner to force situations where I goons and then torture my opponent's hand away.  Then again my start was so dismally slow that he had four provinces before I even started to put pressure on him.

I don't know if combo can keep up on this sort of a board.  There were plenty of turns where I torture him twice and then he plays torturer of his own and then buys province anyway.

[kn1tt3r]

Hmm... could really be true that University => Torturer => Goons is a bit too slow for single Torturer/Big Money (incl. Hoard)...

[ARTjoMS]

Oh well, your 1st shuffle was really unlucky.

I would open potion and either woodcutter or chancellor.
(You need to play action cards that give you money before you discard your hand with tactician).

Chancellor might accelerate your start - that might be critical if opponent is doing same thing, but he isn't doing same thing this time.
Woodcutter gives you extra buys for peddlers, extra buy for last turn (finish some piles or just extra buy for goons) or like in your 5th turn, where you could buy university+tactician.

I would immediately go for 2 tacticians. And i think it is pretty much win from there.

[Superdad]

I think the key thing to exploit here would be Tactician + Goons (with + actions... i.e. uni).

This deck would play a lot like a kings court deck. It will just explode for a whole bunch of VP on key turns (tactician turns).

Peddler being in the kingdom is great because it means that your super goons turns will not have to clog the deck with copper.

I also don't think it's as important to take advantage of the tactician-play turn (i.e. by buying woodcutters) as it is to ensure that your 10-card tactician turns can play as many goons as possible.


I would open Silver/Potion, then get universities going, get 2 tacticians, then load up on goons. By turn 13 or so, you should be able to have a monstrous goons turn where you buy more goons/uni (with your potion) and fill up the rest on peddlers.

Once you get to this point, you can likely tactician every turn, and still profit with the goons.

[WanderingWinder]

I'd open Silver/Potion (or even Chancellor/Potion to accerlate) to go University/Torturer and then heavy Goons/Peddler, basically trying to end it on piles with a significant VP token lead. I see no point in going green here. Since most of my money will be based on +$ Tactician (like 1-2) sounds like a good idea too.

This, except I wouldn't get the chancellor and probably not the tactician either, at least not until very late.

[ShuffleNCut]

Actual game log:
Linky

I think my first 7 turns were absolutely horrible.  Silver potion silver silver university nothing nothing.  Other than a turn five choice of gold vs university I don't really have six to spend until turn eleven (Tactician turn).

I think three tacticians was too many however I figured that any turn I could play multiple torturers, maybe Uni to gain a relevant card, and then another tactician was probably OK.  They turned out to be dead draws too often however I think.  I also did not draw universities often enough (ended up with only five +action cards to three Tactician/eight torturers).

I notice now that I missed at least two free peddlers on Tactician turns and I think that if I had bought a few nobles to activate the torturer trees in the end instead of trying to pull from behind off tactician turns then I could have transitioned into a goons/torturer lockdown mode and maybe actually come back.

55:28 is a pretty convincing loss and with the mistakes I made I deserved it.  Maybe I'll play better next time!

[Anon79]

I think this game is not representative of the comparative strength of the 2 strategies, because of turns 3 to 7. But I think I would have contemplated alternative strategies when 7P shows up on turn 5, after 2 Silvers on turns 3/4.

[DG]

I had a quick look at this with the Geronimo simulator, which played the hands quite reasonably. The torturer/university deck founders as it has a slow start and has too many turns where the draw chain fails. These are not unusual problems for university decks. Nobles, tacticians, and peddlars can't rescue it; there needs to be something better to help the draw chain.

Hoard, ventures, and nobles is decent fast deck.

Tacticians, goons, peddlars, plus late copper seems to come out best.

[DStu]

I had a quick look at this with the Geronimo simulator, which played the hands quite reasonably. The torturer/university deck founders as it has a slow start and has too many turns where the draw chain fails. These are not unusual problems for university decks. Nobles, tacticians, and peddlars can't rescue it; there needs to be something better to help the draw chain.

Tacticians, goons, peddlars, plus late copper seems to come out best.

I think if anything the question is if you can combine the University/Torturer with Tactician, Goons, Peddlers. And if you have the time to get this doing before 3 piles run out. If you can manage to get one turn where you play say 5 Goons out of a Tactician á 7 Buys, that's 35 VP + Greens you can hopefully buy. And you have the torturer on your opponent.

[WanderingWinder]

Yeah, apparently university->torturer is way too slow.

[DG]

I think if anything the question is if you can combine the University/Torturer with Tactician, Goons, Peddlers.

Once you add up the number of cards you're buying to make this happen it looks far too optimistic, considering you need a university for every extra action, considering you get dead turns when you play a tactician, considering that all your starting cards and silver will clog up the deck.

[minced]

Here's a strategy, though I don't know if it's the best:

Open woodcutter/silver and get a tactician ASAP. Get a goons ASAP, get peddlers with extra buys, then buy nobles once you have a goons and a second tactician. University/torturer can't really get off the ground before you'll be using goons every turn, plus goons/peddler gives enough money to support double tactician.

[Superdad]

Tactician on the board means that you will get big hands. Goons is devastating with big hands, provided you have + actions. University grabs tactician and gives + actions. Peddler on the board is just icing on the cake.

I don't know why you would want to fiddle around with torturer chains when you should just focus on getting big Tactician + Goons hands.

I would think that you want to go:

$6 or more (early) -> Goons
$5 -> Tactician (until you have 2)
$4 -> Potion until you have one (or two?)
$P -> University, unless you have 6p, then goons?


If you are goons heavy in the early game, you can use a future $6 to grab a nobles or two.

It shouldn't be long until you start doing things like:
Tactician end
Draw 5, Play university, 3 goons, some coin (or possibly 2 goons/tactician), gain a goons and a whack of peddlers for 12 VP.

Rince/repeat. Win on piles (likely 3 of Goons/Peddler/Nobles/Estate).



/edit.. I just tried this in solitaire, and the universities aren't really an ideal source of +actions. I had thought that they could buy peddlers, but they can't. Peddlers aren't cheaper until your buy phase. So you really have to use the universities to grab torturers (which is still pretty awesome).

[Superdad]

So I've been messing around on this kingdom a bit. I can't use the simulator where I am, but from what I've tried, it looks like any kind of potion based strategy is just too slow. Everything is solitaire though, so this board is hard to play solitaire, when you can't see the damage that your torturer chain is doing.

As far as emptying piles and going for a quick 3-pile drain off goons, the best strat is just tactician + goons + money. There is a weird situation where if you can pick up a few peddlers early, you can basically get the whole pile of them quickly.

For example...

Peddler
Peddler
Goons
Tactician (on a "green" tactician turn)

This lets you buy 2 peddlers, and delay your tactician for next turn, where you hopefully double-goons.

I dunno though... you really want a better source of +actions than the university.

University/Tactician into Goons/Peddlers is strong once it's started, but I can easily beat it with simple big money. It just takes too long to get going.

[guided]

Put Watchtower in this kingdom and I'd bet singleminded pursuit of University/Torturer with 1-2 Tacticians followed by a switch to multi-Goons could be an excellent strategy. As it is though... what the hell are you going to buy with your Goons to catch up in VP chips against an opponent who has a big green card lead?

Swap University for basically any other source of Actions--even Native Village--and I'd put my money on Torturer. As it is though I'd be worried about falling far enough behind due to the slowness of University that a savvy opponent can empty 3 piles (Curses, Peddlers, and either Estates or any pile I'm focusing on like Nobles or Torturers) before I can catch up with my Goons. I'd think the Torturer route is especially prone to losing against Hoard here.

[WanderingWinder]

At this point, I think anything other than rushing green is probably going to fail.

[Death to Sea Hags]

I think this game is not representative of the comparative strength of the 2 strategies, because of turns 3 to 7. But I think I would have contemplated alternative strategies when 7P shows up on turn 5, after 2 Silvers on turns 3/4.

This.

There's really two questions in this thread:
(1) what is your initial strategy choice, based solely on the cards, and
(2), what does it change to on turn 5 when you draw $7P?

I think at turn 5, you have to abandon the Uni strat and buy Gold or Goons.  Your opp has had MUCH luckier draws than you, and effectively translated them into a significant advantage.  Uni is too slow close that gap. 

I'm not sure what COULD get you back in the game, but I think you'll need to play a more risky, higher variance strat and hope it pays off.  Tactician might do that, giving you the potential for monster hands and the +buy to pick up Unis with your potion while getting other good cards, and at the same time giving you some protection from the Goons and Torturers.

Your turn 5 draw also tells you that turn 6 and 7 are likely to suck: all that's left in your draw deck is 3 estates and 6 coppers.  You could anticipate a $4 turn, and plan on doubling down with a 2d Potion after buying Goons or Tac on 5.