Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[gman314]

I just have a few questions about pursuing a Gardens strategy. It would be great if someone could answer them.
1. When do you start buying Gardens? How much infrastructure and what kind do you want first?
2. Do you buy a 5-cost or Gold?
3. When pursuing Ill-Gotten Gains/ Gardens, which do you buy when? Is it best to buy IGGs early and pick up Gardens later or should you rush the Gardens first?

[philosophyguy]

A lot of Gardens games will depend on reacting to your opponent. In the standard Workshop/Gardens game, for instance, simulators have shown that it's better to empty the Workshop pile if your opponent isn't also rushing for Gardens, but if he or she is contesting you then you want to flip to Gardens much earlier. I would assume that the same kind of adjustment is necessary in an IGG game, but I don't have the simulator skills to prove it.

[paulbaxter]

IGG's should be bought early and often in pretty much any game in which they are not contra-indicated. If you have IGG's on a board with gardens and you start buying gardens first you'll have a very hard time buying either of them down the road.

[Galzria]

I played a Gardens game the other day with a combo that's probably well known, but I hadn't considered:

Bureaucrat/Gardens - It's a pseudo buy, and puts silvers into your deck, allowing you to keep up your average card value. I bought 4 before greening, although I imagine mileage may vary. You still have to be concerned with where to empty piles, (Gardens, possibly Estates, and X) - Although perhaps switching off Gardens back to a few more Bureaucrat's mid game once your deck is a bit more stuffed might do well, especially in a non-mirror matchup.

[chwhite]

I played a Gardens game the other day with a combo that's probably well known, but I hadn't considered:

Bureaucrat/Gardens - It's a pseudo buy, and puts silvers into your deck, allowing you to keep up your average card value. I bought 4 before greening, although I imagine mileage may vary. You still have to be concerned with where to empty piles, (Gardens, possibly Estates, and X) - Although perhaps switching off Gardens back to a few more Bureaucrat's mid game once your deck is a bit more stuffed might do well, especially in a non-mirror matchup.

In my experience the third pile in a Bureaucrat-Gardens deck probably wants to be Duchy.

[Galzria]

I played a Gardens game the other day with a combo that's probably well known, but I hadn't considered:

Bureaucrat/Gardens - It's a pseudo buy, and puts silvers into your deck, allowing you to keep up your average card value. I bought 4 before greening, although I imagine mileage may vary. You still have to be concerned with where to empty piles, (Gardens, possibly Estates, and X) - Although perhaps switching off Gardens back to a few more Bureaucrat's mid game once your deck is a bit more stuffed might do well, especially in a non-mirror matchup.

In my experience the third pile in a Bureaucrat-Gardens deck probably wants to be Duchy.

Good to know. That was my first encounter with that combination, and was in a live game, so was a bit harder to track.

[DG]

Gardens are really complicated. All variable vp cards are really complicated in fact and there generally isn't a straight answer to any question since it all depends on the state of the game. The gardens article on the Dominion Theory website  http://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/16/dominion-gardens/ is a good place to start. The duchy/duke article by WanderingWinder is worth a read too as there is some overlap between gardens and duke strategies.

[jotheonah]

Not everyone agrees, but I've found the key in Gardens games is to think on the margin. At any given time, thinking what's the maximum number of cards I can get/minimum number of cards I can lose. There's something to be said for not tipping your hand too early by buying early coppers with extra buys, but honestly you're opponent's going to be able to spot your strategy based on your purchases most of the time anyway.

[jomini]

Good players, generally, know the basic gardens strategies. Not buying coppers isn't going to confuse too many folks what you are gunning to get.

To the initial post:
1. That depends on how you are doing your gardens setup. Simple "gain a card" setups say you should gain as many useful cards (workshops, bureaucrats, caches, etc.) as you can easily risk before piling the gardens quick. For contested matches this may mean as few 3 or 4 card gainers. Some setups (like scheme/golem/margrave), prefer to hit the gardens as soon as the combo hits. Other shots, may encourage going for a big engine and piling out quickly near the end. For instance, KC/hamlet/council room can get you up to 16 coin (half the garden's deck) without too much trouble. On your last turn, it is easy to get 15 or more buys making gardens more cost effective than provinces. Goons engines in particular  can work best if you maximize your buys and pile out the gardens in one go, pile out, and buy mad copper at the end.
2. Depends on a lot of stuff. Gold can be extremely useful if you plan to 3 pile with duchies. 5's can be great (e.g. haggler let's go garden/silver; cache is almost its own reward in a gardens game), but they can also be kinda lackluster (apprentice is worthless in a gardens game without +buy). More often I'm going to be tempted to down-buy to the gardens rather than worry about gold or silver.
3. I'd go for IGG most of the time. IGGs put curses into the other guy's deck - dropping more of his hands from 4 to 3 and the lick. Further, because each time you play an IGG you can nab a copper, your gardens will be that much more powerful. At some point I might stop buying IGG in favour of gardens as the curses are dilute enough I'll never miss a gardens; also, I won't add that much bulk from this IGG. The swap depends on if I think the IGG and gardens are being contested.

[paddyodoors]

... on the Dominion Theory website ...

This phrase alone deserves a +1.

====

Aside: How much is he paying you?  More than he is paying me, or less?

[randomdragoon]

I played a Gardens game the other day with a combo that's probably well known, but I hadn't considered:

Bureaucrat/Gardens - It's a pseudo buy, and puts silvers into your deck, allowing you to keep up your average card value. I bought 4 before greening, although I imagine mileage may vary. You still have to be concerned with where to empty piles, (Gardens, possibly Estates, and X) - Although perhaps switching off Gardens back to a few more Bureaucrat's mid game once your deck is a bit more stuffed might do well, especially in a non-mirror matchup.

With B-crat I've always been paranoid that the opponent might somehow create a engine that can play multiple B-crats per turn and lock down the Gardens deck, although in practice it doesn't happen. Trader is an even better silver-gainer for a Gardens strategy.

[GigaKnight]

I played a Gardens game the other day with a combo that's probably well known, but I hadn't considered:

Bureaucrat/Gardens - It's a pseudo buy, and puts silvers into your deck, allowing you to keep up your average card value. I bought 4 before greening, although I imagine mileage may vary. You still have to be concerned with where to empty piles, (Gardens, possibly Estates, and X) - Although perhaps switching off Gardens back to a few more Bureaucrat's mid game once your deck is a bit more stuffed might do well, especially in a non-mirror matchup.

With B-crat I've always been paranoid that the opponent might somehow create a engine that can play multiple B-crats per turn and lock down the Gardens deck, although in practice it doesn't happen. Trader is an even better silver-gainer for a Gardens strategy.

I don't have much experience here but is seems to me that anything that gains treasure is effectively anti-engine.  If your goal is to trigger your engine consistently (e.g. to lock an opponent down), you have to have a lot of engine power to overcome the treasures "clogging" your deck.  And that's slow, especially on a good Gardens board.  If you're going for a Bcrat "engine", it's probably more to gain Silvers ASAP and buy Provinces than to lock an opponent down.  The attack is nice but will pretty much never turn into a lockdown, I suspect.

[gman314]

I played a Gardens game the other day with a combo that's probably well known, but I hadn't considered:

Bureaucrat/Gardens - It's a pseudo buy, and puts silvers into your deck, allowing you to keep up your average card value. I bought 4 before greening, although I imagine mileage may vary. You still have to be concerned with where to empty piles, (Gardens, possibly Estates, and X) - Although perhaps switching off Gardens back to a few more Bureaucrat's mid game once your deck is a bit more stuffed might do well, especially in a non-mirror matchup.

With B-crat I've always been paranoid that the opponent might somehow create a engine that can play multiple B-crats per turn and lock down the Gardens deck, although in practice it doesn't happen. Trader is an even better silver-gainer for a Gardens strategy.

I don't have much experience here but is seems to me that anything that gains treasure is effectively anti-engine.  If your goal is to trigger your engine consistently (e.g. to lock an opponent down), you have to have a lot of engine power to overcome the treasures "clogging" your deck.  And that's slow, especially on a good Gardens board.  If you're going for a Bcrat "engine", it's probably more to gain Silvers ASAP and buy Provinces than to lock an opponent down.  The attack is nice but will pretty much never turn into a lockdown, I suspect.

I can think of one idea that might actually work as an Engine: Buy a watchtower and keep it for the reveal. Then, you can just trash the Silver.

[jomini]

There are several ways to make B-crat fit into an engine:
1. Watchtower away the silver.
2. Use a trash for benefit card on the silvers; for instance upgrade can turn silvers into villages, apprentice can use it for non-terminal draw.
2. b. Use a forge. B-crat works well in a forge based engine as it gets you to 7 and provides a steady gain of value to forge into engine components/VP (e.g. silver + estate -> bazaar, silver + silver -> fairgrounds).
3. Trash silvers as they come in; normally requires a very strong draw engine with chapel.
4. Make a bloat tolerant engine. This is pretty rare for B-crat; he doesn't work well with a lot of the normal enablers of that e.g. golem, xroads, hunting party, but it could in theory be done.

[eHalcyon]

There are several ways to make B-crat fit into an engine:
1. Watchtower away the silver.
2. Use a trash for benefit card on the silvers; for instance upgrade can turn silvers into villages, apprentice can use it for non-terminal draw.
2. b. Use a forge. B-crat works well in a forge based engine as it gets you to 7 and provides a steady gain of value to forge into engine components/VP (e.g. silver + estate -> bazaar, silver + silver -> fairgrounds).
3. Trash silvers as they come in; normally requires a very strong draw engine with chapel.
4. Make a bloat tolerant engine. This is pretty rare for B-crat; he doesn't work well with a lot of the normal enablers of that e.g. golem, xroads, hunting party, but it could in theory be done.

Also KC-Scheme to keep the engine cards on top.

[O]

There are several ways to make B-crat fit into an engine:
1. Watchtower away the silver.
2. Use a trash for benefit card on the silvers; for instance upgrade can turn silvers into villages, apprentice can use it for non-terminal draw.
2. b. Use a forge. B-crat works well in a forge based engine as it gets you to 7 and provides a steady gain of value to forge into engine components/VP (e.g. silver + estate -> bazaar, silver + silver -> fairgrounds).
3. Trash silvers as they come in; normally requires a very strong draw engine with chapel.
4. Make a bloat tolerant engine. This is pretty rare for B-crat; he doesn't work well with a lot of the normal enablers of that e.g. golem, xroads, hunting party, but it could in theory be done.

1) When do you want B/crat and watchtower in the same deck?
2) If there's TFB out there, how likely is it that your opponent will have a Victory Card to hit?
b) Forge-> BCrat doesn't sound viable.. nearly ever. Once again your BCrat attack does little.
3) Point of Bcrat if there's a strong engine with chapel on the board is...?
4) HP-Bcrat doesn't work, Xroads bcrat conflict mostly, Golem Bcrat... why??? dear god why???


In conclusion: Don't buy it in an engine game. Really, rarely buy it in any other type of game either.

[Jfrisch]

If you don't want silver, Bcrat is a  (potentially) slightly boosted Fortune teller attack without the 2 coins. That's almost as good as a thief in a 2 player mountebank game.

[chwhite]

3) Point of Bcrat if there's a strong engine with chapel on the board is...?

The B-crat slows down your opponent's trashing and builds your economy without having to worry about saving Coppers and wasting turns buying Silver.  Obviously you don't want it in the vast majority of engine decks... but never say never.

Here's an example (which I've shared before) where B-crat worked great in an engine deck: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111116-123304-8afe13dc.html

[ecq]

If you don't want silver, Bcrat is a  (potentially) slightly boosted Fortune teller attack without the 2 coins. That's almost as good as a thief in a 2 player mountebank game.

One Bureaucrat, yes.  Unlike Fortune Teller, though, Bureaucrat's attack stacks.  Two Bureaucrats is (potentially) a slightly boosted Ghost Ship without the two cards.  More than two Bureaucrats can be completely devastating.