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Author Topic: 3 - No buys allowed  (Read 1731 times)

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def

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3 - No buys allowed
« on: April 21, 2012, 05:56:14 am »
+1

Hi!

In a solitaire game, have 8 Colonies in your deck at the end of the game.
Problem: You are not allowed to buy any card at any time but turn 1 and 2. All other cards must be gained differently, somehow...

Bonus point for not using KC. ;)

Since I expect this to be a bit, well, harder, longer, more luck dependent (edit: actually, this totally seems not to be the case, judging after the first solutions I got. Seems like I'd suck at these puzzles, which is ok.); with more possible ways to go, I'll say at most two entries (as a personal message with an isotropic gamelog) only per person, deadline Saturday, April 28th, GMT+1 9:00 a.m.

By the way, with one of my ideas gone for a while (basically what Geronimoo asked for; trashing down and rebuilding the deck), I notice that it's not so easy to come up with fun ideas, since most things can be done by megaturns with KC and other cards, which I don't want to have as the obvious solution.
So, if you have any ideas that fit into my theme (that is, create your own deck to achieve the goal), feel free to send them in.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 06:50:20 am by def »
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Galzria

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Re: 3 - No buys allowed
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2012, 11:13:23 am »
0

Boy, I've got an idea for not using KC/TR, but it requires a long setup time, and 4 cards (needing most of them from their respective piles). I don't think it would be even close to competitive in time though.

However, it is still a mega-turn finish, though not luck based at all.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 11:15:40 am by Galzria »
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

def

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Re: 3 - No buys allowed
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2012, 11:16:35 am »
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Feel free to send it as well as another attempt in. :)
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def

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Re: 3 - No buys allowed
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2012, 07:01:26 am »
0

Many entries already, which make me thing how to score the points this time. Problem is, KC makes things at least one turn faster. and while the first great ideas were without KCs, the KC-solutions start to dominate things. If somebody comes up with even faster solutions, this would mean that the non-KC solutions won't score anything but the bonus point, which doesn't seem fair. So I'm thinking of splitting it into two parts - KC-solutions, and non-KC-solutions, thereby dropping the bonus point. Any reasons/concerns not to do so?

So, anybody who already submitted one solution without KC, feel free to submit one with KC, and vice versa.
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Galzria

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Re: 3 - No buys allowed
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2012, 07:19:53 am »
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I don't see a huge problem splitting them. Non-KC just isn't going to be as fast. You can play it strong, but once KC is added it warps the way cards play. I can't think of any strategy that can't be tweaked to be better with the addition of it.

So the choice as it stands, is try to compete on turns, or try for the bonus point. They can't really coexist.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 07:22:25 am by Galzria »
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

def

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Re: 3 - No buys allowed
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2012, 05:03:43 am »
+1

Here we go!

Like I said, I split the competition into two parts. WAY more entries than before, please give me feedback on what, if there is anything, motivated you more to take part in this challenge than the challenges before, so I can take that into account when creating more challenges. Also, take note that even if I don't answer the private messages mostly, In enjoy reading any additional comments you write there. :)

Non-KC:

3rd place: Fate in 14 turns

2nd place: DG in 13 turns; he asked me not to publish his attempt with good reason and I comply.

1st place: Galzria, Rabid and WrathOfGlod in 11 turns. Great to see different approaches here, from Highway-Ironworks to a stylish Horn of Plente megaturn.

KC:

3rd place:
Mazwa and jonts26 in 11 turns

2nd place: DG, Galzria, GendoIkari, Hks and WrathOfGlod in 10 turns. Note that while DG bought 8 Provinces instead of Colonies, he would have been able to buy 8 Colonies if they had been available, so no problem.

And the first place in whopping 9 turns goes to Avin! Wouldn't have thought that this was possible after I got mostly 11 and 10 turns solution first. Note that this would have been a second place in my first challenges, and that without buys for, well, due to the game length only 7 turns.

The strategy for this challenge seemed clear enough: Open Ironworks/Chapel, trash down and gain other cards, mostly being Ironworks, Bridges/Highways, something to draw cards, and Throne Rooms/King's Courts.
Avin did things a bit different. He opened Governor/Chapel, gaining Ironworks soon, too, but maybe using Governor's flexibility to finish in one turn less than everybode else did.

Points obtained are the normal points (4,2,1) for the best place you obtained in one of the two parts of the challenge; for example Galzria got 2nd in the KC-part, but 1st in the non-KC part, so his best place is 1st, netting him 4 points.

GendoIkari, Hks 6
Fate, jonts26 5
Avin, Galzria, Rabid, Schneau, WrathofGlod 4
ftl, Powerman 3
DG, qmech 2
mazwa, theory 1

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Galzria

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Re: 3 - No buys allowed
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2012, 05:19:31 am »
0

That's awesome by Avin. I'm terrible at seeing / setting up Puzzle 1 like plays (even though I had to be creative in my KC game to get there,), so looking at his turn 8 (very nicely set up), and his turn 9 were quite enjoyable. Also great job using Governors remodel TWICE to great effect. I wondered about the first chapel turn, when he had at least one Estate in hand, but chose to trash 4 Coppers.

Well done everybody.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

Avin

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Re: 3 - No buys allowed
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2012, 09:56:34 am »
+4

That's awesome by Avin. I'm terrible at seeing / setting up Puzzle 1 like plays (even though I had to be creative in my KC game to get there,), so looking at his turn 8 (very nicely set up), and his turn 9 were quite enjoyable. Also great job using Governors remodel TWICE to great effect. I wondered about the first chapel turn, when he had at least one Estate in hand, but chose to trash 4 Coppers.

Well done everybody.

Thanks!

Yes, I initially started with Ironworks/Chapel attempts, and I got 10 turn solutions that way using roughly the same ideas, but I was so close to getting a 9 turn solution, that I realized that if I wanted to get the critical boost earlier on I had to open Governor/Chapel instead. The reason for that is that it was critical to be able to use the chapel more often earlier: with Ironworks/Chapel, you can only use the chapel once between turns 3 and 4, but with Governor/Chapel, you can use the Chapel twice.

Once I settled on that though I ran into the annoying scenario that I had to keep restarting until I got the following:
1. A 5/2 opening
2. Turn 3 had to include either the Governor or the Chapel or both
3. Turn 3 could not include the chapel with all three estates (because I needed at least one estate in order to get my first ironworks before I was done with the chapel)
4. Turn 4 likewise had to include either the governor or the chapel or both, and I had to leave at least one estate untrashed. This was I think much more likely assuming turn 3 had gone well.

After that it was just a matter of building up to the megaturn which I got quite proficient at after several attempts. :) My turn 9 was entirely deterministic once I saw my starting hand. I wrote down my 10 cards, 5 of which were in my hand, and mapped out my route to the almost infinite (only limited by supply of KCs and IWs) turn. You'll notice that I structured the gains with Nobles so that I was able to determine exactly which cards would end up in my hand in order that I would never run out of King's Courted actions, Ironworks, or drawing cards (either Nobles or Governors) until I had played all my bridges.

And as soon as I finished this challenge, I immediately realized I could use a lot of the same basic ideas on Geronimoo's solo challenge running concurrently. That one ended up being easier to set up but slightly tougher to map out the megaturn with the slightly different set of cards I had had to start with there.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 10:02:47 am by Avin »
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