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Author Topic: When do you want a cantrip  (Read 5310 times)

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GendoIkari

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When do you want a cantrip
« on: April 20, 2012, 10:44:42 am »
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Ok, so hypothetical card.

Cantrip
Action - $1
+1 Card
+1 Action

Forget about the price and possible balance issues; I'm just interested in the pros and cons of having random cantrips in your deck (like Pearl Diver, Spy, or Hamlet, if you never end up using their extra abilities). Ignoring all trash-for-benefit type stuff; since the cost of the card isn't important here.

Here's what I can think of:

Times you want them:
Conspirator
Peddler
Gardens
Fairgrounds
Harvest
Menagerie
Vineyards
Throne Room
King's Court

Times you don't want them:
Terminal Draw
Opponent's Tournaments (less likely to have Province in your hand on their turn)
Moat (If opponent has attacks)
Secret Chamber (If opponent has attacks)
Tunnel in your deck, Pirate Ship/Thief/Noble Brigand/Tribute/Discard attacks in opponent's deck
Horse Traders (If opponent has attacks)
Fool's Gold (Less likely to get to use the trash-for-Gold)
Hunting Party

So, what interactions have I missed? Are there any other general things about the generic cantrip that aren't other-card specific?
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Galzria

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2012, 10:48:33 am »
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Haggler gains to avoid unwanted terminals comes to mind, although I'm not 100% sure that's what you're looking for:

Quote
that aren't other-card specific?


Edit: Also, PStone - They increase the value, while not directly decreasing chance of drawing Pstone to hand -- Granted, if you don't draw Pstone in hand, and play those cantrips until you do, you've removed them from the draw/discard, but overall, I think you'll see a net increase in value.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 10:52:54 am by Galzria »
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DStu

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2012, 10:52:23 am »
+1

Every card that draws and discards from your hand might not want a Cantrip, because of missing information.

Oasis, Warehouse, Inn, Hamlet.
Kind of Pearl Diver also.

Scrying Pool might want it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2012, 10:58:11 am »
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Haggler gains to avoid unwanted terminals comes to mind, although I'm not 100% sure that's what you're looking for:

Quote
that aren't other-card specific?


Edit: Also, PStone - They increase the value, while not directly decreasing chance of drawing Pstone to hand -- Granted, if you don't draw Pstone in hand, and play those cantrips until you do, you've removed them from the draw/discard, but overall, I think you'll see a net increase in value.

Definitely right about PStone. I'd say Haggler fits here, but it's definitely quite a niche case... you need a board with Haggler and the Cantrip, and you need to be buying a cheap card with Haggler in play.
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GendoIkari

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2012, 11:00:23 am »
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Every card that draws and discards from your hand might not want a Cantrip, because of missing information.

Oasis, Warehouse, Inn, Hamlet.
Kind of Pearl Diver also.

Scrying Pool might want it.

Very interesting point about the missing info; I wouldn't have thought of that. Along similar lines, these could work also as defense against opponent's Spy (he can't hurt you by discarding or putting it back); also as defense against Pirate Ship/NB/Thief/Rabble/Jester.

I had to think about it a bit, but I do think you're right about Scrying Pool. It should indeed increase the odds of being able to draw your entire deck even with a few non-Actions stuck in there.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2012, 11:04:19 am »
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Goons needs something to buy, and anything that isn't a cantrip decreases the regularity with which you can play more Goons in future (terminals can collide and anything else means you've got more cards to go through to get back to your Goons).
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Kuildeous

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2012, 11:33:46 am »
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also as defense against Pirate Ship/NB/Thief/Rabble/Jester.

Defense against NB is debatable.

Sure, it's not a Silver or Gold, but it's also not a Treasure.

I suppose it might be a better defense than a hindrance, but I can see it being a hindrance.
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Algebraist

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 12:10:45 pm »
+1

Every card that draws and discards from your hand might not want a Cantrip, because of missing information.

Oasis, Warehouse, Inn, Hamlet.
Kind of Pearl Diver also.

Scrying Pool might want it.

Very interesting point about the missing info; I wouldn't have thought of that. Along similar lines, these could work also as defense against opponent's Spy (he can't hurt you by discarding or putting it back); also as defense against Pirate Ship/NB/Thief/Rabble/Jester.

I had to think about it a bit, but I do think you're right about Scrying Pool. It should indeed increase the odds of being able to draw your entire deck even with a few non-Actions stuck in there.

For the same reason, you don't want cantrips in hand against opponent's militia/goons/torturer/ghost ship: you don't know what you're discarding. You do want them in hand against opponent's cutpurse and bureaucrat, since that copper/green card you would otherwise have drawn won't be affected by the attack.

Of course, as Thisisnotasmile points out, there are other things to consider as well when goons is about.
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GendoIkari

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 12:11:44 pm »
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also as defense against Pirate Ship/NB/Thief/Rabble/Jester.

Defense against NB is debatable.

Sure, it's not a Silver or Gold, but it's also not a Treasure.

I suppose it might be a better defense than a hindrance, but I can see it being a hindrance.

Oh right! Oops. In that case, I would say it depends on the rest of the game state as a whole. In some situations, the worst thing for you would be your opponent taking one of your Gold or Silvers. In other situations, the worst thing for you would be you gaining a Copper.

I guess you could say the same about Thief. If you're playing a game against someone who buys a thief early on, but it's not one of the small percentage of games where thief was actually a good idea, you might want to avoid Cantrip because you want those Copper's to be trashed.
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jomini

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2012, 12:25:18 pm »
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Minion comes to mind as a good shot - you can nab the +1 coin and still go for four cards (attacking your opponent).

Golem - in long games cantrips can work as psuedo villages with golem. Golem -> cantrip/cantrip is +2 coin, +2 cards, and +2 actions so you can keep chaining golems. Works particularly well when you want chain a lot of strong terminals (e.g. goons, council room/miltia, torturer, etc.). Doesn't work so well in short games where golem is too slow, but very strong in long bouts.

Ironworks - presumably if iron works are worth getting there is some setup that either already likes cantrip or would benefit from IW not being a dead card. Using IW to  gain a cantrip is better than a dead IW late game.

Limited draw/action-cash decks. Take library/festival with some trashing. Cantrip gives you coin without decreasing the effectiveness of multiple library plays. Treasures slow down the combo, terminal silvers mean you need more +actions to make the library draws work, terminal draw is counterproductive and non-terminal draw competes on price with the main engine components; as long as cantrip didn't displace an engine component buy, I'd take it every time in a festival/library deck.

Foreknowledge draw. A cheap enough cantrip can allow you to use it to get power cards revealed by look ahead cards (e.g. apothecary, scout, cartographer, navigator, etc.) and play those. The +action/+card look ahead cards allow you to use cantrip to increase the search space of the next card (e.g. playing cartographer - revealing two golds, discarding 2 coppers allows you to use cantrip to draw the copper and for your next apothecary to search through 4 cards instead of 3 for stuff to discard). For setups without +actions/+cards, cantrip can let you nab the one out of 4 top cards that you need (e.g. navigator reveals golem, copper, copper, estate).

Tribute defense. Generally, actions are weaker than coin or draw in tribute games and cantrip decreases the odds of tribute being more than a festival or slightly activated city.

Ultra-lean decks. E.g. You are setting up a KC/Masq pin in a mirror match. Having cantrip still allows you to play the pin (play   any number of cantrips then KC -> cantrip -> militia -> KC -> masq), but also allows you to give away a cantrip to a masq without destroying the pin. Likewise, say you build a golden deck of gold/province/bishop/cantrips. Even if you get hit by militia, you can still bishop away a province and churn onward. Ultra-thin Great market decks likewise benefit from adding cheap cantrips.

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GendoIkari

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2012, 12:28:15 pm »
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Cantrips (both the fake card I listed and cantrips as a general concept) don't give you +1 coin. Still, Golem probably fits in like how I listed Throne Room and King's Court. Although Cantrip could also hurt you; if you want your Golem to find 2 better actions instead.
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cherdano

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2012, 01:09:48 pm »
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Negatives that haven't properly been mentioned yet:
- Any defense card might not be in your hand when your opponent attacks (Trader, Bane card, watchtower, I think only moat got mentioned above)
- Play a Farming Village, while the top of your deck is cantrip-estate-curse-wharf...

Obviously emptying a cantrip pile can be good or bad depending on who is leading...
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jomini

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2012, 01:11:39 pm »
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Sorry, I read that as 1 coin, +1 action, +1 card.

You mean it costs 1 coin and is +1 action and +1 card?

In that case, I still think it can be used with golem as a psuedo village to chain golems. Even if you are looking for two better actions, odds are you will hit one and a cantrip allowing you to play more golems and the other actions. This is particularly true if you have some terminal draw in the mix (e.g. your main combo is council room/margrave).



I would also still use it with foreknowledge/draw situations. Particularly if scout or navigator are otherwise viable, cantrip can be very useful for continuing an otherwise dead chain. Apothecary will depend upon the density of copper/apothecaries in your deck; oddly enough it will be worse than copper, but better than silver in some cases. With low copper density (say opening apothecary on a forge board), cantrip will let you chain actions you otherwise couldn't any time you can buy it, but not something better. It would be pretty marginal, though perhaps a slight improvement to a cartographer deck.

Lastly, I could still see using it in ultra-lean decks as masquerade defense. If you are doing a 4 card deck (excluding other cantrip-type cards like bazaar), adding it allows you to hand over something much less hurtful than a combo component.

Also, on a far more obvious note - horn of plenty. Cantrip makes HoPs worth another coin for little downside.
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GendoIkari

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Re: When do you want a cantrip
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2012, 01:14:57 pm »
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Negatives that haven't properly been mentioned yet:
- Any defense card might not be in your hand when your opponent attacks (Trader, Bane card, watchtower, I think only moat got mentioned above)
- Play a Farming Village, while the top of your deck is cantrip-estate-curse-wharf...

Obviously emptying a cantrip pile can be good or bad depending on who is leading...

Yeah, not sure how I missed Watchtower, Trader, and Bane when I was listing reactions.

Nice find on the Farming Village; never would have though of that. I guess the same goes for Cartographer (though that falls into the category of not having knowledge of your cards mentioned above).
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