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Author Topic: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5  (Read 16595 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2012, 02:11:00 pm »
0

Link to playlist with the videos:
My thoughts on the games:
Game 1: I get FOUR mountebanks very early, just want to pound him into submission. Worker's village and ironworks and to grab lots of WVs to play everything, and peddlers. And I spike some early KC. I end it quickly by buying the last two worker's villages, but I was all over the game like sliced bread (not that I outplayed him really - just I was way up by then), so I could have had a big lead instead.

Game 2: Watch the video.

Game 3: We have very similar strategies here, I think. But he gets very unlucky on the early alchemists, and I'm able to spike a forge on turn 8. So we end up splitting the alchemists and he gets a couple of what are very clearly and quickly level 2 cities. Well a couple things. I definitely get a lot luckier than him, but I don't get super super super lucky myself. Probably I'd put my luck here in as above average. Because my steward is sitting on the sidelines most all game. But then check out my turn 11. I draw everything, forge a bunch of coppers, an estate, my steward and my potion into a platinum, and buy a develop. Now, I like the develop, which I use to turn my not-so-useful-anymore forge into a province and hoard, and though I only really use it after this to trash the last couple coppers, I have many options with it should I have needed them. But there were lots of ways to win there, at that point. I do like the hoard too, because it helps give me something back as I go into my very fast greening. But most of all I like the trashing of the potion there. It's just not that useful anymore, in my super-trim deck, and I needed its $4 cost to get that platinum.

Game 4: I'm not actually thrilled about oasis, but if it moats for you... I think the big thing here is that he's able to get to KC a lot faster. Which then springboards everything. Now, I wanted more upgrades to clean everything off, and possibly eventually upgrade upgrade->gold, gold->KC, KC>province if necessary, peddler->platinum. But I don't get to KC fast enough, and he hits an early KC+upgrade to do the same thing, but faster, and with more other good cards! I eventually get my stuff up and running, but I'm WAY behind, so I look to try to KC some young witches, because I know I'm pretty much lost, and my only chance at a hope at a chance at a thought at a hope is to hit him with a bunch of curses. To that end, my first provinces should have probably been a KC. But I'm dead lost anyway. The only thing I can really think here is that I should have taken gold>upgrade on $6 probably, to help make sure I get that KC. Though I think with his first turn, good strategy, and reasonable draws, I'm probably losing anyway.

Game 6: Minion/loan, with navigator and worker's village thrown in. I can point to some differences, though without looking at all his hands, I'm not sure if I'd necessarily played it differently. Except in a couple places. Also, I definitely misplay the navigator/loan/minion interaction a bit, particularly early on. So used to the tertiary navigator effect (re-ordering) not mattering at all. And then I think it's important and precise play for me to attack him at least once a turn pretty often. And I like gold over harvest. But uh, mostly luck yes.

Game 7: I actually think this is one of the more interesting boards in the match, if the least interesting game. Envoy, rabble, stash, bank, mint, hoard. So envoy isn't actually that great with hoard - the high variance hoard gets you is not good for envoy. So I was looking at either trying for BM/Rabble with hoards, or BM envoy with stashes (stash and envoy work VERY well together). And I decide on the latter. But my turn 3 hand is 5 coppers, and I have a long think on whether to buy stash and stick with the plan, or to abandon it and go for mint. I can't pass up the mint, and though it gets me a deck that's way stronger eventually... that's way eventually, and as p2, I'm too far behind. Maybe I should have stuck with stash. I don't know, but I do want to find out.

Edit: Added links

philosophyguy

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2012, 02:36:46 pm »
+3

Wow. Game 2. Just…wow.
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Robz888

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2012, 03:30:03 pm »
0

Wow. Game 2. Just…wow.

Imagine the horror of watching your 7 Province lead slip away, 3 Kinged Monuments at a time...
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Geronimoo

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2012, 04:27:56 pm »
0

@WW: I whipped up a bot for your game 7. The simulator likes Hoard with Envoy (as I expected it would) despite the so called variance it creates. And adding Mint was surprisingly good despite the tempo loss. On average you're going to make up for it in the end game with a much stronger deck.

This Envoy-Hoard bot that buys Mint if it hits 5 Copper early beats the same bot without Mint 48-44 opening $4/$3 (far from optimized) :
Code: [Select]
<player name="Hoard + Envoy + Mint"
 author="WanderingWinder"
 description="The optimized Hoard strategy that buys no actions.">
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Hoard">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Hoard">
      <condition>
         <left type="isActionPhase"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Mint">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Mint"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Copper"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countTurns"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Envoy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Envoy"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2012, 04:41:08 pm »
0

@WW: I whipped up a bot for your game 7. The simulator likes Hoard with Envoy (as I expected it would) despite the so called variance it creates. And adding Mint was surprisingly good despite the tempo loss. On average you're going to make up for it in the end game with a much stronger deck.

This Envoy-Hoard bot that buys Mint if it hits 5 Copper early beats the same bot without Mint 48-44 opening $4/$3 (far from optimized) :
Code: [Select]
<player name="Hoard + Envoy + Mint"
 author="WanderingWinder"
 description="The optimized Hoard strategy that buys no actions.">
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Hoard">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Hoard">
      <condition>
         <left type="isActionPhase"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Mint">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Mint"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Copper"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countTurns"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Envoy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Envoy"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
I think you misunderstand my claim. I'm not saying that envoy isn't helped by hoard. I'm saying it isn't helped by hoard as much as a lot of other strategies are. Specifically here, Rabble. I whipped up this Rabble with Hoard bot, basically no tuning:
Code: [Select]
<player name="RabbleHoard"
 author="WanderingWinder"
 description="The optimized Rabble strategy that buys no other actions.">
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Attacking"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="16.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Hoard">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Rabble">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Rabble"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <extra_operation type="divideBy" attribute="10.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

philosophyguy

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2012, 08:28:12 pm »
0

@Geronimoo: can you explain what this part of your simulator is doing?
Code: [Select]
  <buy name="Hoard">
      <condition>
         <left type="isActionPhase"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
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Rabid

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2012, 09:04:42 pm »
0

I think it has to do with what to gain with Mint (in the action phase).
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DG

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2012, 09:24:29 pm »
0

That portion of the script gains hoards with the mint and buys gold. I suspect this isn't meaningful in itself but improves the script since it creates a reasonable balance between hoards and gold in the deck. A better approximation might be to buy/gain hoards instead of gold when there are at least 5 provinces in the supply.

I can't simulate any noticeable advantage in taking a mint or not taking the mint. The best alternative seems to be envoy/silver with rabble after turn four.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 09:54:51 pm by DG »
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Young Nick

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2012, 12:15:45 am »
0

Young Nick takes 4 and fit1one takes 3. They earn 8 and 6 points respectively. Logs included below:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/26/game-20120426-131034-728a301c.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/26/game-20120426-135806-f3bfe98e.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/26/game-20120426-134718-e0e70cc7.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/26/game-20120426-134041-22796091.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/26/game-20120426-133203-2c79f4a8.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/26/game-20120426-131816-6afb2580.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/26/game-20120426-140624-64a5c29d.html

Comments hopefully to come later. As always, I feel like my losses were when we went for similar strategies and couldn't get the shuffle luck. I never really felt that one of his strategies caught me off-guard or anything like that.

I was surprised by how dull this set of seven felt like. Prosperity cards are to be powerful, but the games just didn't feel that way. Mountebank and King's Court are definitely soul-numbing.
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ArjanB

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2012, 05:59:33 am »
0

I Haven't heard from my opponent JanErik...
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Kirian

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2012, 09:54:20 am »
0

I Haven't heard from my opponent JanErik...

Hrm.  I know he's active on isotropic, I played three games against him last night.  Try another PM maybe?
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Kirian

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2012, 11:06:27 pm »
0

Kirian 5-2 Graystripe77

Kirian 36-30 Graystripe77 Masquerade trumps Sea Hag
Kirian 35-20 Graystripe77 KC-City-Peddler plus luck
Kirian 20-32 Graystripe77 Inn-Wharf engine decimates Witch
Kirian 53-31 Graystripe77 Silk Roads are slightly too slow when uncontested
Kirian 77-57 Graystripe77 BM-Witch-Bishop beats Philosopher's Stone
Kirian 40-58 Graystripe77 Crossroads/Nobles beats Hamlet/Watchtower
Kirian 63-51 Graystripe77 Hamlet/Rabble beats Hamlet/CH

Game 1:  Not much to say, Masquerade beats cursers, and Forge is awesome with drawing power.
Game 2:  Oddly, this was the only real mirror match, and I feel it was mainly decided by luck--my luck grabbing KC-KC-City-City-Peddler on one turn, essentially.
Game 3:  Speaking of cursers, Witch just doesn't do enough damage to Gray's Wharf/Inn engine.  A few added Monuments give him the victory push.
Game 4:  I think if I'd tried to contest Silk Roads, I would have lost here.  Instead, I patiently went BM, stopping for just one SR (which was better that the alternative, a Duchy).
Game 5:  I just don't think Philosopher's Stone had the power to overcome here, and my early (and more often) Curses slowed him down too much.
Game 6:  One engine is just plain faster than the other, and it wasn't mine.
Game 7:  Gray makes CH competitive here, impressively, but drawing 10 Coppers form the discard doesn't have the buying power (and cycling power) of drawing 10 bigger cards from the deck.

I wanted to note, on the subject of luck and probability:  In seven games with 6 Prosperity cards, we never saw GM or Goons, and only had KC twice.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 04:11:34 pm by Kirian »
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DG

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2012, 09:49:34 am »
0

Elahrairah13 and I finished our series last night resulting in a 6:1 scoreline.

DG 61 : 59 Elahrairah13 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/30/game-20120430-104027-3c102231.html
DG 77 : 37 Elahrairah13 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/30/game-20120430-105720-2c8c2640.html
DG 50 : 36 Elahraihah13  http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201204/30/game-20120430-111236-1393546e.html

Fifth game (first of these three) had a strange mix of treasures and actions that suggested going heavily one way or the other. I went with treasures earlier and this seemed to work.

Sixth game was another difficult set for king's court but a just a couple of good king's court + envoy turns was enough for me.
Seventh game had plenty of options and I managed to set up a vault and platinum for quick colonies and forging out the supply to finish, just as my opponent could get cities rolling.

Thanks again for the series!
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Geronimoo

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2012, 05:40:44 pm »
0

loes u beats Geronimoo 4-3

Mountebank dominated most games, but loes played well.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/07/game-20120507-121733-de336562.html
loes 40 - Geronimoo 37
Key cards: Council Room, Hoard
loes opens Fishing Village/Fishing Village which I don't like because the odds of getting to the all important $5 are low before the second reshuffle, so I open FV/Silver. Of course she gets $5 and I don't before the second reshuffle... I still like my chances because I have 2 Warehouses to her 1 and loes buys a Watchtower which is pretty bad when the opponent plays Council Room. Unfortunately the early game bad luck does me in.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/07/game-20120507-122743-f8b831de.html
Geronimoo 36 - loes 14
Key cards: Mountebank, Counting House
I get a lucky $5/$2 opening on a Mountebank board where loes opens Quarry/Silver. Mid game I buy Minions and Golds randomly because I can't decide between them (Minion is probably still slightly better), then I finally make a good decision and buy 2 Counting Houses which give me plenty money. Loes didn't buy the Mountebank counter.... this game...

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/07/game-20120507-124603-17d410e5.html
Geronimoo 60 - loes 59
Key cards: Mountebank, Counting House...yes and Caravan
We both open Horse Traders/Silver on a Mountebank board and then concentrate on Caravans after the Mountebanks. I get a lot more Curses in then her and I only buy 1 Counting House. She gets 2 of them and buys extra Coppers to feed to it. I get extremely lucky this game as I'm able to 3-pile the game one turn before she buys the last Colony with her Counting House. I probably didn't green agressively enough this game because I was on the lookout to 3-pile the game while I was in the lead, which caused me to lose that lead. Tricky!

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/07/game-20120507-125914-24ff8d54.html
loes 15 - Geronimoo 3
Key cards: Mountebank (whee), Young Witch, KC, Golem ... a whole bunch of cards...
We both open YW/Chancellor (bane). I get a second YW because I like the cycling and she only gets one bane. Then I decide I want Pawns to buy Peddlers so I have plenty of stuff to King's Court. Loes on the other hand gets a Potion, some real money and later King's Courts and Golems and I realize I'm dead unless she gets very unlucky. I hope I'll be able to 3-pile her before she connects a KC with a Golem, but no such luck and she only needs the one mega-turn to finish me off. I played this horribly.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/07/game-20120507-131027-19162d27.html
loes 9 - Geronimoo 8
Key cards: Mountebank... (of course), University, Rabble
I open Potion/Loan while loes goes for Silver/Potion. I like my opening a little better and I think it allows me to build up my engine a little faster. If you look at the end decks you can see my engine is much leaner. Unfortunately I get a very unlucky reshuffle and a single dead turn is enough for loes to end it on piles. I might have misplayed this because I could have had more end game control by not buying out all those piles, but I was sure I had this in the bag... This one really hurt.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/07/game-20120507-133543-9ae82a19.html
Geronimoo 84 - loes 19
Key cards: Mountebank (yes please), Alchemist, Margrave, Black Market
We both open Black Market/Potion because I see some nice stuff in the Black Market. I get a nice advantage in Alchemists and turn 10 I find a Chapel in the BM which I buy over another Alchemist. I wasn't sure at the time, but in the end it worked out fine because I got my deck cleaned up and the unstoppable Alchemy stack does the rest. A little tactical good practice: I always put back random actions first on the deck with Schemes, then Alchemists so loes' Margraves wouldn't discard my Alchemies.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/07/game-20120507-134245-6a745647.html
loes 53 - Geronimoo 38
Key cards: no Mountebank this time, but IGG and Bank
We both open Monument/Silver and get a few IGG's, then Banks (nice!). We have pretty much identical strategies, but I guess first turn advantage and Banks lining up a little better with IGG's make this an easy win for loes.

loes played these messy games well and I wasn't really on top of my game tonight.
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Dsell

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Re: Mustard's Bracket, Week 5
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2012, 01:53:13 am »
0

AHoppy and I will be playing this match (my last week remaining) sometime in the next week, after he finishes finals.
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