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Author Topic: How do you think about Ambassador?  (Read 3985 times)

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jotheonah

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How do you think about Ambassador?
« on: April 19, 2012, 08:51:32 pm »
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So we (at least I think this is universal) tend to classify cards to make it easier to tell at a glance what the best strategy on a board is. "There are X trashers, and X attacks."  But some cards defy that sort of classification, none more than Ambassador. So my question is, what's your FIRST reaction when you see Ambassador on a board? Is it "Yay, I can get rid of my Coppers and Estates" or "Yay, I can annoy my opponent with unwanted Coppers and Estates"?
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jonts26

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2012, 08:53:55 pm »
+9

So we (at least I think this is universal) tend to classify cards to make it easier to tell at a glance what the best strategy on a board is. "There are X trashers, and X attacks."  But some cards defy that sort of classification, none more than Ambassador. So my question is, what's your FIRST reaction when you see Ambassador on a board? Is it "Yay, I can get rid of my Coppers and Estates" or "Yay, I can annoy my opponent with unwanted Coppers and Estates"?

My first reaction when seeing ambassador does not start with, Yay.
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jotheonah

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2012, 08:54:52 pm »
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So we (at least I think this is universal) tend to classify cards to make it easier to tell at a glance what the best strategy on a board is. "There are X trashers, and X attacks."  But some cards defy that sort of classification, none more than Ambassador. So my question is, what's your FIRST reaction when you see Ambassador on a board? Is it "Yay, I can get rid of my Coppers and Estates" or "Yay, I can annoy my opponent with unwanted Coppers and Estates"?

My first reaction when seeing ambassador does not start with, Yay.

That's fair.
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Galzria

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2012, 09:11:05 pm »
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I love the card. I almost always pick it up turn 1 or 2, and often another turn 3. I also like opening amb/amb and skipping cursers altogether. About the only time I ignore it is if masquerade is on the board, and then it's a toss-up. As to how I voted... Trasher. But I see it as both. I don't use Steward for much more than trashing, so it's Steward on crack to me, that doesn't force me to trash 2 when I don't want to. (Steward does have more value late. My failure to evaluate that is my own short coming)

But my decks usually enjoy having them there.

That said, I like to be sure I can power build my economy while having 1-3 dead cards in early hands.

I gain it about 72.2% of the time, and my win rate with is 1.42 (without is 1.2). Weighted against my record, which gives me a point value of 1.222 shows that I perform at a higher level than I usually do when I buy it, and about average when I don't.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 09:31:59 pm by Galzria »
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

ftl

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2012, 10:05:59 pm »
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Well, I tend to think both of the things you mentioned "OK, there's both a trasher on the board and an attack."

It tips the scale pretty far in the direction of going for an engine instead of BM, and I would usually immediately check for the presence of a lab variant, or village variant+smithy variant.
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chwhite

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2012, 11:40:10 pm »
+1

So my question is, what's your FIRST reaction when you see Ambassador on a board? Is it "Yay, I can get rid of my Coppers and Estates" or "Yay, I can annoy my opponent with unwanted Coppers and Estates"?

My first reaction is "Gimme two."

This is not always my final decision- but I get at least one over 94 percent of the time (and given my win rate without, I don't think that's too much at all).  Both the trashing and the attack are quite powerful, and I would consider it likely the strongest Dominion card in 2p. Really the only situation where I'm likely to avoid it now is Gardens/Silk Road games.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 11:43:48 pm by chwhite »
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timchen

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2012, 11:53:51 pm »
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It's definitely an attack-- how often did you see your deck shrink fast after you buy them?
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Galzria

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 12:02:02 am »
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It's definitely an attack-- how often did you see your deck shrink fast after you buy them?

Often enough that I find following chwhite's initial reaction of "give me 2" to need to wait until turn 3, so I at least have a starting silver in my deck. Unless there is a Workers Village / *Hamlet on the board along with Peddler (a niche case). (*Hamlets rock in that case)

Still, it's deck thinning is not to be undervalued.

Unless you're referring to playing tennis with them, I'm which case it comes down to who rallys better (ie. Gets the best draws). I'm still amazed at how many people skip them altogether still.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 12:07:32 am by Galzria »
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

blueblimp

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 12:34:52 am »
+2

I think of Ambassador as an "attack Chapel".
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v3ck

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2012, 01:06:36 am »
+3

How do you think about a tennis racquet? Do you use it to keep the rally alive or to make it difficult for your opponent to do so?
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qmech

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2012, 03:38:20 am »
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If it's a game where you want your deck to be small, then the trashing and attack aspects are both important.  If it isn't, then the attack aspect is pretty weak: the presence of a few extra coppers and estates in your deck is not a huge issue if you're playing BM, especially given the time your opponent will be spending dismantling their own economy.  So it feels more like a trasher than an attack to me.
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Kuildeous

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2012, 08:31:06 am »
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I'm still amazed at how many people skip them altogether still.

I'm not so surprised. It was largely ignored in our group for a while. It wasn't until I read more about it online that I started taking it seriously.

Our group was also in the camp of, "Why would anybody bother with a Chapel if Witch isn't out there?" Some people need to actually see the card in action to realize its potential. I didn't think of Dominion in terms of deck thinning at first.
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Papa Luigi

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2012, 10:41:32 am »
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I'm still amazed at how many people skip them altogether still.

I'm not so surprised. It was largely ignored in our group for a while. It wasn't until I read more about it online that I started taking it seriously.

Our group was also in the camp of, "Why would anybody bother with a Chapel if Witch isn't out there?" Some people need to actually see the card in action to realize its potential. I didn't think of Dominion in terms of deck thinning at first.

Yeah I used to think that way too. "Why would I want to trash anything? Every single card is helpful!" I played one game with Chapel with my friends before I discovered Isotropic and was never able to trash a single curse with it.

Then I read on Dominion Strategy that Chapel was the best card in the game, and I tried it out on Isotropic, and holy wow were they right.

I still haven't used Ambassador a lot. It's only come up in a few games on Iso for me, and in one of them Chapel was on the board and I used it instead. I still need to really try it out.
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jotheonah

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2012, 12:12:30 pm »
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Interesting range of answers.  I tend to think of it as a trasher, but as soon as my opponent also buys one it really isn't that anymore, because my deck gains things even as it loses things.  And I don't really think of it much as an attack because you have to specifically pair it with something in order to really attack someone.  Mostly I think of it as a defense against my opponent's Ambassador, a way to counter his attacks on me.
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ftl

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2012, 02:31:23 pm »
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It's not a very good attack if it's in a BM+X deck, but in an engine that draws itself every turn, you can make it super-powerful - it becomes a curser that prevents your opponent from cursing you! I've wound up with 10-0 curse splits due to amb. (Have been on either side of it.)

Of course, doing that DOES require a very reliable engine - but Amb trashing helps set that engine up. 
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dondon151

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2012, 03:43:26 pm »
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Interesting range of answers.  I tend to think of it as a trasher, but as soon as my opponent also buys one it really isn't that anymore, because my deck gains things even as it loses things.  And I don't really think of it much as an attack because you have to specifically pair it with something in order to really attack someone.  Mostly I think of it as a defense against my opponent's Ambassador, a way to counter his attacks on me.

In general, though, Ambassador "trashes" faster than it attacks, if both you and your opponent play it at an equal place. I'd think that if you view Ambassador passively, you're probably playing it incorrectly in a lot of kingdoms...
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2012, 05:04:09 pm »
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For its cost it is by far the most powerful card in dominion.  You could make a case for it costing 5 buy I think 4 would be reasonable.  You can almost never win if you fall behind in the ambassador fight.  For this reason two ambassadors is essential and the amb/amb open is so strong.  It should be the supreme priority on almost all boards it appears.  Figuring out when you amb two coppers isntead of a single estate to catch up with an amb of two estates later is very substantial when it works. 

Ambassador is my highest %+ card at 98.5 and my winrate when ambassador is available is higher than any other card with 1.48 0.09 over 400 games. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 05:11:08 pm by Obi Wan Bonogi »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: How do you think about Ambassador?
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2012, 05:16:59 pm »
+2

For its cost it is by far the most powerful card in dominion.  You could make a case for it costing 5 buy I think 4 would be reasonable.  You can almost never win if you fall behind in the ambassador fight.  For this reason two ambassadors is essential and the amb/amb open is so strong.  It should be the supreme priority on almost all boards it appears.  Figuring out when you amb two coppers isntead of a single estate to catch up with an amb of two estates later is very substantial when it works. 

Ambassador is my highest %+ card at 98.5 and my winrate when ambassador is available is higher than any other card with 1.48 0.09 over 400 games. 
You play way too many colony games.
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