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Author Topic: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?  (Read 52558 times)

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Galzria

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2012, 04:34:01 pm »
0

Also, I'm not sure what the complaint about Grand Market is? If I have 8 coins in hand (Gold, Silver, Silver, Copper), and GM is on the table, my button reads +$7 - granted, Ive almost missed buying a Province because I didn't double check my hand for that copper, but how should the system know I want to green now? It protects me in case I DON'T, so I can play quickly without costing myself a valuable card. I can play that copper anytime. I can't unplay it.

The issue is that figuring out whether your hand is capable of buying grand market is actually impossible. Trickiest case: if you have a Venture in hand, nobody knows what it will turn up when you play it, so in many situations you don't know whether you will have $6 after playing your treasures.

Unfortunately, in cases where special treasures are involved, +$ will play your coppers. The most annoying special treasure for this is probably Quarry.

The main reason this is a problem is that in grand market games, players become accustomed to using +$ even on turns where they want a grand market. Since GM+special treasure games are decently rare, it's easy to forget that in these games, you can't reliably use +$ to buy grand markets.

Thank you. I guess it's just never effected me because I always play my special treasures manually (at least, Quarry, FG, and even IGG) anyway.
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Ozle

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2012, 04:34:13 pm »
+1

I think the simplest difference here is how to improve something.

I coach baseball. I ALWAYS use positive reinforcement. "Shrug it off, try this, get it next time" works a WHOLE lot better than "You messed up. Fix it and get it right". Discuss what would be cool, not in terms of what is WRONG, but in terms of could be better.

"X would be cool, discuss"
"Hey, I noticed the system doesn't do Y, any thoughts?"
"Do you think the system would be better if it did Z?"

If you try and improve (especially a free service offered by it's designer because he enjoyed creating or) through constructive, positive posts, you'll get a lot further than tearing down or complaining about it's current set up. And DougZ might feel more inclined to implement new things.

As a baseball coach your positive reinforcement should be 'Hey, at least its not Cricket'
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RisingJaguar

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2012, 04:36:02 pm »
0

To those saying that one shouldn't complain about free things: Have you never complained about Facebook? Or Google? Or <insert 100 other free services here>?
Ads
Just for clarification: if Iso had ads, you'd be okay with complaints, but not without?
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/dont-look-a-gift-horse-in-the-mouth.html
Similar to WW, I agree that there are minor problems.  I just don't get as agitated about free products and more grateful. 
Also I thought your original question was what was the difference.
Hey, look at me not making any complaints about Iso in this entire thread. No need to get http://lmgtfy.com/?q=passive+aggressive

My original question was, indeed, "What's the difference?". That question was answered, and then I asked for a slightly more detailed answer.
I'm confused, I thought I answered both questions as is... If I get something free, then I don't complain nearly as much.  I don't complain about isotropic compared to facebook/google things that require me to look at ads or monitor my activity.  Sorry if it didn't come across properly.
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BaruMonkey

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2012, 04:39:26 pm »
0

To those saying that one shouldn't complain about free things: Have you never complained about Facebook? Or Google? Or <insert 100 other free services here>?
Ads
Just for clarification: if Iso had ads, you'd be okay with complaints, but not without?
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/dont-look-a-gift-horse-in-the-mouth.html
Similar to WW, I agree that there are minor problems.  I just don't get as agitated about free products and more grateful. 
Also I thought your original question was what was the difference.
Hey, look at me not making any complaints about Iso in this entire thread. No need to get http://lmgtfy.com/?q=passive+aggressive

My original question was, indeed, "What's the difference?". That question was answered, and then I asked for a slightly more detailed answer.
I'm confused, I thought I answered both questions as is... If I get something free, then I don't complain nearly as much.  I don't complain about isotropic compared to facebook/google things that require me to look at ads or monitor my activity.  Sorry if it didn't come across properly.
Posting here because the edit back there may not get read:

Apologies if there was a negative tone in my last post. There might have been; I was going for humor; I'm not sure I can tell at this point. I will attempt to walk away from this thread now, as I think it has a bit too much of https://xkcd.com/386/
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jotheonah

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2012, 06:14:19 pm »
+2

What bugs me (to ignore 90% of the thread and respond to the OP) are games where my opponent has a bunch of Envoys and one Bishop. And it's like.

What card should so and so discard?
Gold
What card should so and so discard?
Gold
What card should so and so discard?
Gold
Optionally trash a card?
Gold
oh wait  :'(

Ok, so that's only happened maybe twice, but man, annoying.
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dondon151

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2012, 06:35:53 pm »
+2

Not sure what you're saying about the last two things here. But I'll tell you how that comment got to +5. The thing is, you can complain about anything. The whole point of my comment isn't that the interface should be fireproof, it's that I don't think there are any problems with it where barsooma is saying there are some. So in my view, he's really nit-picking when there's no reason to. Now, it's fine with you to disagree. But his 'false' comments... well, they're technically true, because man, it's not absolutely totally 100% perfect. You aren't going to get absolutely totally 100% perfect. Ain't gonna happen. So like, here's the deal: somebody can walk up to you on the street and hand you a box of frozen ice-cream-cone drumstick treats, and man, he gave you chocolate, and you like chocolate, but you really prefer chocolate with nuts. So you CAN complain, but let me tell you, you really shouldn't.

Apologies if this brings the topic away from its current direction, but I was away and thought that this deserved a response:

There is a huge difference between giving away objects and giving away products and services for free. Complaining about a physical gift is perceived as being greedy, and it is indeed selfish on the part of the recipient to do so, because to demand a better gift necessarily equates to demanding something of higher monetary value. But in the case of a product or a service, it is OK to complain because the giver has a personal stake in his gift - it is a manifestation of his hard work; something that he had put effort into and should thus be proud of. If he's making a mistake somewhere, he should know about it. Sure, it is a douche move to reject the gift completely, but no one is doing that in this topic.

Let me ask you a few questions: if someone decided to do you a favor, would you be alright with it if he did it in a half-assed manner? If a friend built a bicycle for you that always breaks, do you keep your mouth shut? What if that box of ice-cream cone drumstick treats that that stranger handed to you was defective because it had been exposed to rat feces in the production process, and you weren't told about it?
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mDuo13

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2012, 07:17:06 pm »
0

I love Isotropic, but (to get back on track of this topic) there are little quirks that annoy me. Throne Room / Ambassador is definitely one that has hurt me the most before, but there are a couple others I didn't see mentioned yet:

In my experience, the money autoplay is really safe about only playing as much as you definitely want to play... unless Farmland is on the board. Then it's a really tough question what treasures you actually want to play. Still, I'd appreciate having a "click again to confirm" behavior (like for when playing your money when you can still play action cards) when you can reach at least $6 with cards remaining in hand and Farmland on the board.

And I really wish the "info" board state stuff was shown without needing to click for a popup.

I can only hope that whatever online client Rio Grande comes up with takes some lessons from Isotropic.
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ftl

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2012, 08:04:33 pm »
+1

With the Grand Market - the behavior, as it is currently, is a little confusing at times.

It seems like the behavior of +$ is "If you have enough to buy a Grand Market, play everything except coppers; otherwise, play everything." Or, at least, that's how it behaves in 90% of cases. However, in reality, that's not what's happening; what happens is that if you have enough to buy GM from just Gold and Silver, then play just the Golds and Silvers; otherwise, play Golds, Silvers, Coppers.

The corner case is when you would or might have enough to buy GM from Gold, Silver, and Kingdom Treasures, but not from Gold and Silver alone. That's the case that's confusing and where people get tripped up.


There are a bunch of possible solutions to this. One is to just leave it be and have people get confused and then eventually unconfused; as with most of these, they're not that big of a deal.

A second possible solution is to just have a better algorithm for whether or not to play the coppers - calculate whether, with kingdom treasures, it's POSSIBLE to get to $6, and if it's possible, don't autoplay coppers. This is the most convenient, but potentially takes nontrivial code, since it requires calculating possible values for Kingdom treasures, which have complex rules on them.

A third possible solution is to never autoplay coppers when the player has some special treasures in-hand. This will cause fewer accidental failures to buy Grand Market, at the expense of more clicks at other times. Whether this is an improvement or not is probably debatable. 

A third possible solution is more buttons; to have, at the appropriate times, buttons for 'play everything' or 'play everything but coppers'. This one would be a terrible fit for isotropic, because the current design isn't really conducive to adding more buttons. It's a pretty tough UI design challenge to put in more buttons without things becoming cluttered and annoying; maybe for the official version.

 (I'm actually really curious to see what the official version's UI ends up looking like. A lot of the things that are mentioned here CAN be addressed by more UI detail - for example, having "discard to Envoy" and "trash to Bishop" LOOK different, rather than just having different text - but that wouldn't fit at all with Isotropic's UI. I bet that a professional could design an interface that's as simple to use as Isotropic AND sophisticated enough to make those distinctions, but I certainly couldn't, and would have no constructive suggestions for how to do so.)

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theory

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2012, 08:24:49 pm »
+2

Seems like a lot of this could also be resolved by an "Undo" button.  Provided, of course, that you can only "Undo" after any plays that don't affect the game state (e.g., playing Venture).
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jotheonah

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2012, 08:40:19 pm »
0

For the record, I don't mean to suggest that my Bishop-Envoy problem is anyone's fault but mine.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2012, 09:09:35 pm »
0

Seems like a lot of this could also be resolved by an "Undo" button.  Provided, of course, that you can only "Undo" after any plays that don't affect the game state (e.g., playing Venture).
I agree that this would solve a lot of problems! Allow you to select and unselect your treasures as you need them until you purchase your first card.  Actions would just be far to complicated and on a per action basis it is probably not worth trying though. 
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Eevee

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2012, 09:30:54 pm »
0

It wouldn't be productive to remove the auto-play treasure button, as you can already click individual treasures... seems like it would be your fault if you avoid that and auto-play...

Have like some sort of "play all but gold/silver/copper/each treasure" buttons? Seems a little much to have for EVERY turn in a game with farmlands...

It might just be nice to have the red ?! If you have more than $6 in hand (can play $6 without playing all your treasure) and Farmland is on the board I guess.
For the record, I would HATE this. It would slow these games down SO MUCH. Yeah, we get used to auto-clicking, but there's really not a great way of handling this particular problem that doesn't make a bigger problem elsewhere, as far as I can see. Unless the thing can read your mind.

I guess some kind of a warning like grand market has (?!?, red color) would work pretty well? You'd have to click twice every time you have 6+ with farmland on board, wouldnt slow it down all that much?

Undo button would be even better, it would also help with accidentally playing something when you are looking to buy a mint or a grand market.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2012, 09:58:36 pm »
0

It wouldn't be productive to remove the auto-play treasure button, as you can already click individual treasures... seems like it would be your fault if you avoid that and auto-play...

Have like some sort of "play all but gold/silver/copper/each treasure" buttons? Seems a little much to have for EVERY turn in a game with farmlands...

It might just be nice to have the red ?! If you have more than $6 in hand (can play $6 without playing all your treasure) and Farmland is on the board I guess.
For the record, I would HATE this. It would slow these games down SO MUCH. Yeah, we get used to auto-clicking, but there's really not a great way of handling this particular problem that doesn't make a bigger problem elsewhere, as far as I can see. Unless the thing can read your mind.

I guess some kind of a warning like grand market has (?!?, red color) would work pretty well? You'd have to click twice every time you have 6+ with farmland on board, wouldnt slow it down all that much?

Undo button would be even better, it would also help with accidentally playing something when you are looking to buy a mint or a grand market.
That's what I thought he meant. And yeah, that would be THAT much. But I mean, I've played more games than anybody else on (public) isotropic, and I tend to play really fast, so this double click thing may be much more of a headache for me than anyone else. And maybe for reasons of benefiting the most people at the most time, it should be done. But I personally would hate it.

TheMathProf

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2012, 10:02:50 pm »
0

On the primary topic, I have the darnedest time rearranging the cards when I want to put them back on top of the deck using cards like Cartographer or Apothecary.  The Ghost Ship mechanism is cool and easier to work with, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to to do that when the number of cards being added back isn't necessarily fixed.

(Alternatively, if anybody has an easier time with rearranging the cards to put them back on top with those cards, I'd love to hear it.)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2012, 10:09:52 pm »
0

Not sure what you're saying about the last two things here. But I'll tell you how that comment got to +5. The thing is, you can complain about anything. The whole point of my comment isn't that the interface should be fireproof, it's that I don't think there are any problems with it where barsooma is saying there are some. So in my view, he's really nit-picking when there's no reason to. Now, it's fine with you to disagree. But his 'false' comments... well, they're technically true, because man, it's not absolutely totally 100% perfect. You aren't going to get absolutely totally 100% perfect. Ain't gonna happen. So like, here's the deal: somebody can walk up to you on the street and hand you a box of frozen ice-cream-cone drumstick treats, and man, he gave you chocolate, and you like chocolate, but you really prefer chocolate with nuts. So you CAN complain, but let me tell you, you really shouldn't.

Apologies if this brings the topic away from its current direction, but I was away and thought that this deserved a response:

There is a huge difference between giving away objects and giving away products and services for free. Complaining about a physical gift is perceived as being greedy, and it is indeed selfish on the part of the recipient to do so, because to demand a better gift necessarily equates to demanding something of higher monetary value. But in the case of a product or a service, it is OK to complain because the giver has a personal stake in his gift - it is a manifestation of his hard work; something that he had put effort into and should thus be proud of. If he's making a mistake somewhere, he should know about it. Sure, it is a douche move to reject the gift completely, but no one is doing that in this topic.

Let me ask you a few questions: if someone decided to do you a favor, would you be alright with it if he did it in a half-assed manner? If a friend built a bicycle for you that always breaks, do you keep your mouth shut? What if that box of ice-cream cone drumstick treats that that stranger handed to you was defective because it had been exposed to rat feces in the production process, and you weren't told about it?

I don't think it's okay to complain about a product or service. Offer constructive criticism, sure. But not complain.
By the way, what's the distinction between an object and a product anyway? Also, why are you viewing isotropic this way rather than a gift? I'm not seeing a meaningful distinction there.
If someone agrees to do me a favour, then I want him to do it to the (reasonable) best of his abilities, based on his or her agreement. This is the important thing. The agreement. By it, he or she is now harming me by not holding up their agreement, basically by lying. Now, if there's extenuating circumstances on why they can't do it, then they just totally get a pass. Case two, bike that always breaks. I might tell them, because they're going to want to know that they did something wrong. But you  know, I'm going to try to figure out why it's failing first. If it turns out to be a me problem, then I won't tell them anything. If it's a fluke defective part, I won't either. Only if it's their mistake. And then it's more in a 'by-the-way-you-need-to-check-this-out, it's not working like you thought you did' kind of thing than a 'dude you suck at building bikes' thing. Which I realize, you guys aren't saying isotropic sucks. But you do not to be aware that your tone comes off that way sometimes. And I might not even tell them. Moreover a more analogous situation is that they build you a bike that isn't sturdy enough for the kind of mountain work that you normally do. Or whatever else. My friend makes me a nice cheesy casserole. I'm not going to tell them that I hate cheese incessantly, even though I do. Heck, if they're there, I'll even eat the thing, though it's terribly terribly disgusting to me. And in this case, I'm not going to tell them that, unless they ask. 'cause it just seems rude and ungrateful. Or I guess if it was like someone really really really close to me, I might tell them then, because I know they can take it, and they're close enough to me yadda yadda. But we're talking like family here.
Third situation, the rat faeces. Well, I'm going to assume that they didn't know, so I won't complain to them, but rather the manufacturer. If somehow I can ascertain that they KNEW it was exposed, then you bet I'm going to be upset, and probably tell them. But this case is different because accepting the gift/product/service is causing me harm, ad you have a reasonable expectation that someone won't cause you harm. Isotropic doesn't cause anyone any harm short of some minor frustrations that you get inherently risking by playing a game.

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2012, 10:32:35 pm »
+5

My friend makes me a nice cheesy casserole. I'm not going to tell them that I hate cheese incessantly, even though I do. Heck, if they're there, I'll even eat the thing, though it's terribly terribly disgusting to me. And in this case, I'm not going to tell them that, unless they ask. 'cause it just seems rude and ungrateful. Or I guess if it was like someone really really really close to me, I might tell them then, because I know they can take it, and they're close enough to me yadda yadda. But we're talking like family here.
This is the part of the social contract that I hate.  If you don't like my cheese casserole, let me know (preferably by saying "yeah i just dont like cheese, not my thing" of course - a little tact never hurt...) and it'll help both of us out.  I'm not going to be that put out to try to do something to remedy the situation, and you won't have to eat shit you don't like.  At very least, in the future, i'll actually know better. 
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ftl

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2012, 10:37:52 pm »
+2

By the way, what's the distinction between an object and a product anyway? Also, why are you viewing isotropic this way rather than a gift? I'm not seeing a meaningful distinction there.

Internet products and services blur the distinction between products/services and gifts all the time. 

Like, from a user perspective, using isotropic (entirely free, a 'gift') is no different than using gmail or facebook or any one of the millions of things out there that are 'free' but still try to monetize you somehow, probably via ads. You sign up, you use it for free, maybe someone makes money off of you, maybe not. Or ones that don't even try to monetize you yet! (I don't even know, does Twitter even have ads? How do they make money? I know that for a while, they didn't - was it a gift back then?) Or ones that give away a product for free for promotional purposes. Reminds me of the Night Circus. An online game that was free to play, entirely. There were no ads, I think - other than the fact that the whole game was an ad for a book, because it was set in the book's fictional universe. From a user perspective, it was entirely equivalent to Isotropic's experience - free to play, but tied in to a particular physical product.

Internet is a weird place, man.
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Deadlock39

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2012, 11:53:16 pm »
+1

I don't think it's okay to complain about a product or service. Offer constructive criticism, sure. But not complain.

I'm not sure why I am interjecting my opinion here, but I guess I feel like it an it is the internet, so... what the heck.

My opinion on this whole thread and the arguing that is going back and forth is that it comes down to WW's statement right here.  However... my opinion is that, the only real difference between complaining and constructive criticism is tone, and wording things nicely.  Now, complaints might not actually contain anything actually constructive, but for the most part, including the types of things in this thread, the target of the criticism is going to be better at figuring out solutions anyway. (Users seriously have the shittiest ideas.)  Since tone does not translate over text too well, we are just left with being nice.  So... we are left with, "the guys who are complaining should be nicer" which I totally agree with, but don't really think trying to tell people on the internet to be nicer is a terribly productive thing to do.  (not that you shouldn't do it if you are so compelled)

For anyone who is reading complaints on the internet (Doug Z in this case) it is always going to be better for sanity to always interpret them as constructive criticism because man, there are a lot of ass holes on the internet (but a few of them have legitimate complaints).

kn1tt3r

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #93 on: April 20, 2012, 12:43:54 am »
0

Also what is the problem with moat's reaction? Or does this apply to ALL reactions in that you would prefer moat to be like a young witch bane (click once as opposed to click once and then click none)?  I suppose it makes new comers take a few extra seconds of confused pause but is there a problem I'm missing?
The reason I don't have a problem with moat's reaction is because to have it some other way would be against the rules of the game. Yeah, I can see arguments on the other side, but I like dougz's extreme fidelity to the rules.
This is another big issue with demanding (rather than suggesting) changes - different people want different things, and you can't please everyone.
I think the Moat thing could actually be fixed by just adding some checkbox ("reveal Moat in case of played attack cards?" or sth like that) you can click once you got your cards for next turn. This would also eliminate this timing tell you usually have.

But at the end of the day, who are we to complain? I mean we're not even customers, we're users who benefit from the hard work of some other guy. Actually I feel somewhat indebted to Doug rather than eager to complain about whatever uncomfortable little details.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2012, 09:00:18 am »
+1

Also what is the problem with moat's reaction? Or does this apply to ALL reactions in that you would prefer moat to be like a young witch bane (click once as opposed to click once and then click none)?  I suppose it makes new comers take a few extra seconds of confused pause but is there a problem I'm missing?
The reason I don't have a problem with moat's reaction is because to have it some other way would be against the rules of the game. Yeah, I can see arguments on the other side, but I like dougz's extreme fidelity to the rules.
This is another big issue with demanding (rather than suggesting) changes - different people want different things, and you can't please everyone.
I think the Moat thing could actually be fixed by just adding some checkbox ("reveal Moat in case of played attack cards?" or sth like that) you can click once you got your cards for next turn. This would also eliminate this timing tell you usually have.

But at the end of the day, who are we to complain? I mean we're not even customers, we're users who benefit from the hard work of some other guy. Actually I feel somewhat indebted to Doug rather than eager to complain about whatever uncomfortable little details.
The probelm with doing moat that way is that I might want to use the reaction on some attacks, but not others.

kn1tt3r

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #95 on: April 20, 2012, 09:06:17 am »
+1

I think the Moat thing could actually be fixed by just adding some checkbox ("reveal Moat in case of played attack cards?" or sth like that) you can click once you got your cards for next turn. This would also eliminate this timing tell you usually have.
The probelm with doing moat that way is that I might want to use the reaction on some attacks, but not others.

Well, then don't click the checkbox, and everything works as it works now.
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blueblimp

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #96 on: April 20, 2012, 10:38:20 am »
0

(I'm actually really curious to see what the official version's UI ends up looking like. A lot of the things that are mentioned here CAN be addressed by more UI detail - for example, having "discard to Envoy" and "trash to Bishop" LOOK different, rather than just having different text - but that wouldn't fit at all with Isotropic's UI. I bet that a professional could design an interface that's as simple to use as Isotropic AND sophisticated enough to make those distinctions, but I certainly couldn't, and would have no constructive suggestions for how to do so.)

One way of going about this would be to show the art of the asking card whenever there is a choice. Obviously this isn't going to prevent every mistake, but it's reasonably simple and might fit in the isotropic interface.
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Papa Luigi

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #97 on: April 20, 2012, 10:48:16 am »
+2

(I'm actually really curious to see what the official version's UI ends up looking like. A lot of the things that are mentioned here CAN be addressed by more UI detail - for example, having "discard to Envoy" and "trash to Bishop" LOOK different, rather than just having different text - but that wouldn't fit at all with Isotropic's UI. I bet that a professional could design an interface that's as simple to use as Isotropic AND sophisticated enough to make those distinctions, but I certainly couldn't, and would have no constructive suggestions for how to do so.)

One way of going about this would be to show the art of the asking card whenever there is a choice. Obviously this isn't going to prevent every mistake, but it's reasonably simple and might fit in the isotropic interface.

Probably the one thing I'd change about Isotropic, if I could change anything, would be a way of displaying card effects more prominently while playing. Right now there's the text interface and the image interface - I'm thinking of something like a "card" interface where you see all the stacks, all the cards in your hand, etc. Sort of like when you play Black Market and click the "view available cards" button. Great if you have the screen space for it.

It's just somewhat slow having to mouseover every card if I want to see it, and sometimes the auto scrolling causes the mouseover image to disappear so you have to bring it up again. Being able to see every card at once would be a huge help for newbies who haven't played much and may not be familiar with some of the expansions.
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Kuildeous

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #98 on: April 20, 2012, 12:14:17 pm »
0

Seems like a lot of this could also be resolved by an "Undo" button.  Provided, of course, that you can only "Undo" after any plays that don't affect the game state (e.g., playing Venture).

I've gotten a little spoiled. I've been playing Thunderstone on Facebook, and there is an Undo button. It's got a pretty decent chain that it follows back to. In most cases, you can undo all the way to the beginning of your turn.

It is not available, of course, when you do something that gives you knowledge about something that should be random. In Dominion terms, it's like what you mention with Venture. Contraband, Tribute, and Envoy would all be similar cases. Some attacks could be Undone, but some combinations obviously shouldn't work (like playing Ghost Ship followed by Noble Brigand).

It's a nice feature, though I shudder to think what kind of code that would entail, especially when defining when you have to empty the Undo stack due to those special cases where it's not fair to allow Undos.

But Thunderstone handles it pretty well. I suspect that it was coded with Undo from the very beginning. Adding it to Isotropic would probably be troublesome. I hope the Dominion app has it, though.
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Papa Luigi

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Re: What's the worst Isotropic quirk in your opinion?
« Reply #99 on: April 20, 2012, 06:15:30 pm »
+2

I don't know, you'd basically have to exclude any situation that involves either player drawing or looking at any cards from their deck, or anything that could potentially cause someone to reveal anything from their hand. That's a whole lot of situations.

So no undo for any cards that involve drawing. No undo for any deck-inspection attacks. No undo for anything that could potentially have a reaction played against it - think about it. If you play a Witch and your opponent has a Moat in hand, then it will say "waiting for reactions" before letting you continue, but if your opponent doesn't have a Moat, then it automatically plays the attack. So merely playing an attack card reveals something about your opponent's hand - either that they have a reaction card in it, or that they don't. Doesn't have to be a Moat either, you could have Secret Chamber, or even cards that react to things other than attacks like Tunnel, Fool's Gold, or Trader.

In fact, anything that causes your opponent to do anything would make an undo function unfair. Even something like playing Governor - what if you play it using the Remodel function and your opponent gains a card you don't want him to gain? Can you just undo and choose the +cards or gain Gold option instead?

It seems as though there would be more situations where undo would be unbalanced than ones where it would be balanced. Basically things like Merchant Ship, Bridge, basic treasure cards, and some special treasure cards like Cache, Hoard, and Harem. Another situation would be any action card that, when you play it, it gives you a choice of HOW to play it first before doing anything else. For instance, Steward - you play it, and before anything else happens, it gives you the choice of +$2, +2 cards, or trash 2 cards. Adding a little "cancel" button to cards like Steward and Pawn would be fair.
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