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Author Topic: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)  (Read 8168 times)

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Voltgloss

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Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« on: April 18, 2012, 12:10:11 pm »
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So I played a RL game last night with Familiar and Warehouse on the board.  Now, Warehouse of course combos well with any curser, as it helps you cycle your deck to play the curser more often (and can help you get past Curses your opponent flings at you).  And as Familiar was the only curser on the board, and as Apprentice was there as well (to convert the Familiars into +5 cards after the Curses ran dry), I decided I was going to go for it.

The question that puzzled me:  Which is the better opener: Warehouse/Potion or Silver/Potion?  Intuitively, it felt to me that I would have a better chance at avoiding the dreaded 2p hand with Warehouse, as I'd just need to have Potion, 3 Coppers, and Warehouse all together in a set of 8 cards.  On the other hand, if Warehouse doesn't show turn 3, then playing it turn 4 will trigger a reshuffle - locking Familiar out of your third run through the deck even if you're able to buy it turn 4. 

In the end, I picked Warehouse/Potion and the choice wound up not mattering much - I drew PCCCE turn 4 and bought my Familiar then, and didn't see my Warehouse until turn 5.  But I'm still wondering which was the better choice.  So I throw the question open to the board at large.
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rrenaud

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 12:13:40 pm »
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I like Potion/Warehouse.  It also helps you spam the Familiar faster.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2012, 12:33:33 pm »
+1

if Warehouse doesn't show turn 3, then playing it turn 4 will trigger a reshuffle - locking Familiar out of your third run through the deck even if you're able to buy it turn 4. 
If you play Warehouse on turn 4, you reshuffle 5 cards during your turn, one of which you draw. You then shuffle the rest of your cards in the cleanup phase. So this "third run through the deck" is less than one hand. And you can, in fact, draw your Familiar on turn 5. So this drawback is hardly a drawback at all.
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Young Nick

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2012, 01:38:23 pm »
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Could someone who's capable of running simulations (I've tried, but failed) provide any type of evidence as to which one is better? My gut is with Voltgloss, that Warehouse is a better enabler, but I would love to know which is better definitively. Thanks in advance.
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blueblimp

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2012, 02:26:53 pm »
+1

Warehouse seems clearly better than silver as far as buying familiars goes. Don't really need to sim it: drawing warehouse with potion helps more than drawing silver with potion (think PSEEE), and the cycling helps you see your potion more often.

What I'd wonder about is when there are good 5's, since warehouse/potion has a very hard time hitting 5.

Related question: how good is Courtyard/Potion as an opener? The draw & cycling help buy familiars, and overall it is a better card when you have no terminals, but on the other hand it is vulnerable to cursing and has a small chance of drawing dead familiars (mitigated by the ability to put one back).
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 02:30:59 pm by blueblimp »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2012, 02:55:31 pm »
+1

Warehouse seems clearly better than silver as far as buying familiars goes. Don't really need to sim it: drawing warehouse with potion helps more than drawing silver with potion (think PSEEE), and the cycling helps you see your potion more often.

What I'd wonder about is when there are good 5's, since warehouse/potion has a very hard time hitting 5.

Related question: how good is Courtyard/Potion as an opener? The draw & cycling help buy familiars, and overall it is a better card when you have no terminals, but on the other hand it is vulnerable to cursing and has a small chance of drawing dead familiars (mitigated by the ability to put one back).
For clarification, if you get warehouse with potion, it's impossible to NOT have enough to buy familiar (potion and warehouse are two cards, for your other three, you get a choice of six; at most, three of those are estates, so boom, three have to be coppers)

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2012, 04:13:06 pm »
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Related question: how good is Courtyard/Potion as an opener? The draw & cycling help buy familiars, and overall it is a better card when you have no terminals, but on the other hand it is vulnerable to cursing and has a small chance of drawing dead familiars (mitigated by the ability to put one back).
What do you mean by "vulnerable to cursing"? I would think drawing more cards makes curses hurt less, since each curse makes up a smaller fraction of your hand.
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blueblimp

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2012, 06:06:09 pm »
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Related question: how good is Courtyard/Potion as an opener? The draw & cycling help buy familiars, and overall it is a better card when you have no terminals, but on the other hand it is vulnerable to cursing and has a small chance of drawing dead familiars (mitigated by the ability to put one back).
What do you mean by "vulnerable to cursing"? I would think drawing more cards makes curses hurt less, since each curse makes up a smaller fraction of your hand.

I mean in that Courtyard has this slight Ghost Ship effect on you, which although usually a good thing, means that you might end up with CCCCECuCu in hand and need to put one of the E's or the Cu back on the deck (if you want a $4), whereas Warehouse could discard all the dead cards.

Maybe it's not significant overall.
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mDuo13

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2012, 07:09:15 pm »
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Related question: how good is Courtyard/Potion as an opener? The draw & cycling help buy familiars, and overall it is a better card when you have no terminals, but on the other hand it is vulnerable to cursing and has a small chance of drawing dead familiars (mitigated by the ability to put one back).
What do you mean by "vulnerable to cursing"? I would think drawing more cards makes curses hurt less, since each curse makes up a smaller fraction of your hand.

I mean in that Courtyard has this slight Ghost Ship effect on you, which although usually a good thing, means that you might end up with CCCCECuCu in hand and need to put one of the E's or the Cu back on the deck (if you want a $4), whereas Warehouse could discard all the dead cards.

Maybe it's not significant overall.
Maybe it's a "Ghost Ship-like" effect compared to Warehouse, but compared to any card that doesn't draw you 3 cards, you're still cycling your deck faster. It's strictly better than drawing 2 cards; you can just put that third card right back where you found it, after all. I wouldn't worry about it. On subsequent turns, if you pick up, say, a Silver, the Courtyard could be better than the Warehouse because it allows you to smooth out your money if it clumps and you draw it all together.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2012, 09:14:52 am »
+3

CCCCECuCu

Man, as a community, we've got to come up with a single-letter unique designation for Curse. I sat there for a minute wondering why he couldn't make up his mind when abbreviating Copper.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2012, 09:20:41 am »
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For clarification, if you get warehouse with potion, it's impossible to NOT have enough to buy familiar (potion and warehouse are two cards, for your other three, you get a choice of six; at most, three of those are estates, so boom, three have to be coppers)

Because it is extremely rare when WW is not 100% spot on: it is indeed possible to have have familiar fail with Warehouse + Potion - in the case anything that puts curses in your deck early.

Examples:

Turn 1 / 2 IGG
Turn 3 Sea Hag
Generic Turn 3 cursing attack (witch) if you draw Warehouse + Potion on Turn 4.

And then of course - discard attacks also hose you up.  Warehouse + Potion + Copper x3 fails to buy potion against militia while Silver + Potion + Copper x3 does not.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2012, 09:26:06 am »
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For clarification, if you get warehouse with potion, it's impossible to NOT have enough to buy familiar (potion and warehouse are two cards, for your other three, you get a choice of six; at most, three of those are estates, so boom, three have to be coppers)

Because it is extremely rare when WW is not 100% spot on: it is indeed possible to have have familiar fail with Warehouse + Potion - in the case anything that puts curses in your deck early.

Examples:

Turn 1 / 2 IGG
Turn 3 Sea Hag
Generic Turn 3 cursing attack (witch) if you draw Warehouse + Potion on Turn 4.

And then of course - discard attacks also hose you up.  Warehouse + Potion + Copper x3 fails to buy potion against militia while Silver + Potion + Copper x3 does not.
Oh sure. I should have said 'assuming your deck has nothing else in it'. Which I was. Because otherwise, it's a little sketchy to be using this strategy, in all likelihood.

gorgonstar

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2012, 01:23:57 pm »
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It's nice to see that the reasoning here is backed up by empirical data.  Councilroom.com seems to support the consensus here that potion/warehouse is superior. 

potion/warehouse - level +1
potion/silver - level +0
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blueblimp

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2012, 01:40:39 pm »
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It's nice to see that the reasoning here is backed up by empirical data.  Councilroom.com seems to support the consensus here that potion/warehouse is superior. 

potion/warehouse - level +1
potion/silver - level +0

The trouble is that these positive stats could come from people doing something like Potion/Warehouse into University (which I think would be fantastic on a University-friendly board).
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rrenaud

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2012, 02:38:08 pm »
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I don't think there is a particularly strong synergy between Warehouse and either University or Familiar.

http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=University%2CFamiliar%2CWarehouse&interaction=Warehouse%2CUniversity%2CFamiliar&nested=false&unconditional=true

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eHalcyon

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2012, 03:28:39 pm »
+3

CCCCECuCu

Man, as a community, we've got to come up with a single-letter unique designation for Curse. I sat there for a minute wondering why he couldn't make up his mind when abbreviating Copper.

It doesn't help that Cu is the chemical symbol for copper.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2012, 03:28:56 pm »
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I don't think there is a particularly strong synergy between Warehouse and either University or Familiar.

http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=University%2CFamiliar%2CWarehouse&interaction=Warehouse%2CUniversity%2CFamiliar&nested=false&unconditional=true


Those stats, like all CR stats to some extent, definitely don't show no synergy (how many negatives can I throw into a sentence?)

Ozle

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2012, 04:08:22 pm »
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CCCCECuCu

Man, as a community, we've got to come up with a single-letter unique designation for Curse. I sat there for a minute wondering why he couldn't make up his mind when abbreviating Copper.

Why not X ? as its essentially a dead card
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jonts26

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2012, 04:18:25 pm »
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You just need to change the font color.

CCCEECC
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gorgonstar

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2012, 04:54:12 pm »
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On other message boards you might not be able to change the font color.  It would be to come up with a more general solution.  Using X for curses was my first thought also.
 
CCEEX

I like the look of it.
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Jorbles

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2012, 05:18:49 pm »
+1

The problem with X is that people usually use X to mean any card and as a result you'd get all sorts of misinterpretations because of that.

For example if I have hand VGXXX (Vault-Gold-any three other cards) then I can buy a Province, it doesn't have to be Vault-Gold-Curse-Curse-Curse (though that works too).
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dondon151

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2012, 07:11:32 pm »
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Use Q! Or Z.
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Kirian

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2012, 07:17:54 pm »
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I usually use U for curse, i.e., the second letter.  It has the advantage of being the initial letter of only two cards.
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mDuo13

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2012, 07:31:12 pm »
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You just need to change the font color.

CCCEECC
I can't tell if you're serious, but that hurts my eyes.

I don't like using X (for reasons Jorbles covered), Q seems unintuitive, and U could be Upgrade or something... Tough call all around.
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dondon151

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Re: Potion/Warehouse -> Familiar (vs. Potion/Silver)
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2012, 07:39:43 pm »
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I don't like using X (for reasons Jorbles covered), Q seems unintuitive, and U could be Upgrade or something... Tough call all around.

What's wrong with Qurses?
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