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Author Topic: Math request: Nomad Camp  (Read 43970 times)

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david707

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #100 on: April 19, 2012, 08:19:41 am »
+7

Why is there even an argument here?
Probability (A given B) = Probability (A and B)/Probability (B)
Probability (Bottom card is estate given initial hand is CCCCE)=Probability(Bottom card is estate and initial hand is CCCCE)/Probability(Initial hand is CCCCE)

Probability(Bottom card is estate and initial hand is CCCCE):
A deck of {CCCCCCCEEE} can be arranged in 10!/(7!*3!) ways, which is 120 ways.
We require an arrangement of {CCCCE|CCCE|E}, the order of the first 5 and the order of cards 6-9 don't matter so we get this in 5*4=20 ways. 20/120=1/6.

Probability(initial hand is CCCCE):
We require {CCCCE|CCCEE}, the first part can be ordered 5 different ways, the second part 10 ways. 5*10=50. 50/120=5/12.

so the final answer is (1/6)/(5/12)=2/5=0.4=40%

end of thread.
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DStu

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #101 on: April 19, 2012, 08:34:14 am »
0

end of thread.

I wouldn't be sure...
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Kuildeous

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #102 on: April 19, 2012, 09:27:44 am »
+2

end of thread.

I wouldn't be sure...

Well, it should be, but this is the internet after all.

Thank you, David. That is exactly what I was looking for. The fact that you explained it perfectly just demonstrates how rusty I am in probability. I knew what had to be done, but I couldn't quite recall all of it. Your post brings back memories (which I hope to not forget too soon). If I could have properly blown out the cobwebs in my skull, I could have ended this two pages ago.

Although, I believe the 30% claim has been abandoned for now, so it's probably best that we continue on to more pressing questions like when is the blue dog's birthday if he is struck by lightning tomorrow.
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Fabian

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #103 on: April 19, 2012, 01:22:03 pm »
0

Well it is end of thread, because unfortunately the guy started ignoring it once he figured out he was wrong. Which is too bad, I was greatly enjoying this thread up until then.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2012, 01:36:00 pm »
+1

Well it is end of thread, because unfortunately the guy started ignoring it once he figured out he was wrong. Which is too bad, I was greatly enjoying this thread up until then.

I can't blame him. It wasn't a pleasant experience for me when I discovered I was on the wrong side of the Monty Hall problem. And I argued vehemently that the probability changed to 1/2. I was certain that the math used was somehow faulty or abused (like proving that 1=2 with a divide-by-zero error).

I think it took expanding the problem to a million doors to make me re-evaluate the math and realize that I was wrong all along. It sucked. Now I can look back at it and laugh, but I don't think I ever did admit I was wrong to the person who challenged what I thought I knew about the Monty Hall problem.

Humans hate being wrong.
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Galzria

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #105 on: April 19, 2012, 02:34:03 pm »
0

Your last point is valid, however the rest is wrong.

See, my error is where this is DIFFERENT than Monty. We recieve information in blocks of 5, not 1. If this were a Hall paradox, we would a) get to evaluate after 8 doors have been revealed, not 5, and b) we would know all subsets that show 3 estates in the first 8 are false, else we would have already lost; that is, he will always leave us a way to win (assuming "win" in this is naming which card holds the 3rd estate with greatest frequency).

Since we dont know cards 6-8, we cannot make assumptions about them. WW did indeed post the proof behind my problem - which is different than here.
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TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
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eHalcyon

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #106 on: April 19, 2012, 03:22:20 pm »
0

Your last point is valid, however the rest is wrong.

See, my error is where this is DIFFERENT than Monty. We recieve information in blocks of 5, not 1. If this were a Hall paradox, we would a) get to evaluate after 8 doors have been revealed, not 5, and b) we would know all subsets that show 3 estates in the first 8 are false, else we would have already lost; that is, he will always leave us a way to win (assuming "win" in this is naming which card holds the 3rd estate with greatest frequency).

Since we dont know cards 6-8, we cannot make assumptions about them. WW did indeed post the proof behind my problem - which is different than here.

So... are you admitting that you were mistaken earlier?  :P
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Galzria

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #107 on: April 19, 2012, 03:49:38 pm »
0

Sure. I said all along I didn't have the proof. I tried to let it lie. :)

WW put up where I was going with my thoughts, which similar, produce very different results. Blueblimps venture example is closer to what I intended as well.

I remembered doing something similar (as this was) that produced counter intuitive results than 2/5 = 40%. I wasn't trying to argue that exactly, but the circumstances to what I was arguing were obviously slightly different - I just couldn't remember what they were at the time, and only saw the similarities.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 03:55:43 pm by Galzria »
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

eHalcyon

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #108 on: April 19, 2012, 03:55:22 pm »
+1

Sure. I said all along I didn't have the proof. I tried to let it lie. :)

WW put up where I was going with my thoughts, which similar, produce very different results. Blueblimps venture example is closer to what I intended as well.

Well the tone I got from those posts was "I'm sure I'm right but I don't have the proof, so I won't go on about it even though you're all wrong."  But maybe I was misreading it.

Good on you for admitting error after arguing the contrary for so long!
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Galzria

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #109 on: April 19, 2012, 07:13:35 pm »
0

Nope, never meant it like that. That's why I had said I was willing to let 40% stand until I could produce a reason it shouldn't. I was willing to put the onus on me to prove/show where I thought I was right at. When I read WW's post, the details of the problem I was remembering came back. Similar, but definitely different than what we have going on here.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

cored

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #110 on: January 20, 2013, 11:48:55 am »
0

Quote
Problem 18.14.
A 52-card deck is thoroughly shuffled and you are dealt a hand of 13 cards.
(a) If you have one ace, what is the probability that you have a second ace?
(b) If you have the ace of spades, what is the probability that you have a second ace?
Remarkably, the two answers are different. This problem will test your counting ability!

Last two lines are straight from the textbook.
[/quote]

I apologize in advance for the necro-post, but damnit, what's the answer to part (b)?

Part (a) is pretty straightforward.  Take an ace out, and you have 51 cards, 3 of which are aces, so that's 1/17, and then the question is basically just what's the probability of an ace being in 12 of those , so 1/17 * 12/17.

I can't think of how it is different knowing that the ace you have is a particular ace, and the answer is not in the link, and I can't seem to google the same scenario...argh.
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qmech

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #111 on: January 20, 2013, 12:16:22 pm »
0

Part (a) is pretty straightforward.  Take an ace out, and you have 51 cards, 3 of which are aces, so that's 1/17, and then the question is basically just what's the probability of an ace being in 12 of those , so 1/17 * 12/17.

It's not quite like that.  If we work with unordered hands then there are (52 choose 13) hands in total, of which (48 choose 13) have no aces.  So (52 choose 13) - (48 choose 13) hands contain at least one ace.  All we know is that our hand is one of these.

Of these, 4 x (48 choose 12) hands contain exactly one ace.  So, courtesy Wolfram Alpha (EDIT: try this instead), the probability of at least two aces given that we have at least one ace is about 0.5071 0.3696.

For (b), the number of hands containing the ace of spades is (51 choose 12).  Of these, (48 choose 12) contain no additional aces.  So, again courtesy Wolfram Alpha, the probability of at least two aces given the ace of spades is about 0.5612.

Your analysis for (a) is closer to the correct argument for (b).  You are indeed drawing 12 cards from 51, of which 3 are aces, so the average number of aces you expect to draw is 12/17.  But sometimes you'll get more than one ace, so the probability of at least one ace has to be a bit lower to compensate.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 05:44:44 pm by qmech »
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serakfalcon

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #112 on: January 20, 2013, 12:20:01 pm »
+2

I think the real questions in all of this are,
a) what is the likelihood of being nerdsniped on this forum
b) what is the proportion of math nerd/geeks (separate statistics if possible) on this forum
Proof(s) left as an exercise
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Tables

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #113 on: January 20, 2013, 06:21:30 pm »
+4

I think the real questions in all of this are,
a) what is the likelihood of being nerdsniped on this forum
b) what is the proportion of math nerd/geeks (separate statistics if possible) on this forum
Proof(s) left as an exercise

I'm not going to give exact answers to each question, but as a spoiler, the sum of both answers together is approximately 2.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

jomini

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #114 on: January 20, 2013, 10:37:12 pm »
0

I think the real questions in all of this are,
a) what is the likelihood of being nerdsniped on this forum
b) what is the proportion of math nerd/geeks (separate statistics if possible) on this forum
Proof(s) left as an exercise

I'm not going to give exact answers to each question, but as a spoiler, the sum of both answers together is approximately 2.

Only for sufficiently small values of 2 =)
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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #115 on: January 21, 2013, 06:19:16 am »
0

I'm very tempted to now take a picture of me wearing my shirt that says '2+2=5 (for extremely large values of 2)' but alas, it's in the wash.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

AdamH

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #116 on: January 22, 2013, 02:24:00 pm »
0

Problem 18.14.
A 52-card deck is thoroughly shuffled and you are dealt a hand of 13 cards.
(a) If you have one ace, what is the probability that you have a second ace?
(b) If you have the ace of spades, what is the probability that you have a second ace?
Remarkably, the two answers are different. This problem will test your counting ability!

[the answer to the question, which boils down to]
sometimes you'll get more than one ace [for part (b)]

Sorry, but this immediately came to my mind after reading the question and the answer:

http://xkcd.com/169/

This problem is ONLY hard because they stated it poorly, and that upsets me. That comic, OTOH, makes me very happy.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #117 on: January 22, 2013, 09:15:35 pm »
0

Sorry, but this immediately came to my mind after reading the question and the answer:

http://xkcd.com/169/

This problem is ONLY hard because they stated it poorly, and that upsets me. That comic, OTOH, makes me very happy.

I've read that comic over and over... and I've read the Explain XKCD for it twice.  I cannot, for the life of me, parse the first panel into anything other than the obvious meaning. How can it possibly be parsed into meaningful English such that the smug joke works?
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Axxle

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #118 on: January 22, 2013, 09:22:53 pm »
0

You're not alone, I can't parse it either.
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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #119 on: January 22, 2013, 09:44:55 pm »
0

It can't, the guy phrased his smug joke wrong.
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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #120 on: January 22, 2013, 11:22:19 pm »
0

The joke is more properly phrased

"Angry and hungry are two words that end in 'gry'. What is the third word in the English language?"
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DStu

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #121 on: January 23, 2013, 02:01:16 am »
+1

Problem 18.14.
A 52-card deck is thoroughly shuffled and you are dealt a hand of 13 cards.
(a) If you have one ace, what is the probability that you have a second ace?
(b) If you have the ace of spades, what is the probability that you have a second ace?
Remarkably, the two answers are different. This problem will test your counting ability!

[the answer to the question, which boils down to]
sometimes you'll get more than one ace [for part (b)]

Sorry, but this immediately came to my mind after reading the question and the answer:

http://xkcd.com/169/

This problem is ONLY hard because they stated it poorly, and that upsets me. That comic, OTOH, makes me very happy.

I don't see how the puzzle is stated poorly.  It gives you two well defined and not really obscure cases.  What's poorly is the human intuition on probability, and the puzzle should and does show this.
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AdamH

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #122 on: January 23, 2013, 08:03:59 am »
0

Problem 18.14.
A 52-card deck is thoroughly shuffled and you are dealt a hand of 13 cards.
(a) If you have one ace, what is the probability that you have a second ace?
(b) If you have the ace of spades, what is the probability that you have a second ace?
Remarkably, the two answers are different. This problem will test your counting ability!

[the answer to the question, which boils down to]
sometimes you'll get more than one ace [for part (b)]

Sorry, but this immediately came to my mind after reading the question and the answer:

http://xkcd.com/169/

This problem is ONLY hard because they stated it poorly, and that upsets me. That comic, OTOH, makes me very happy.

I don't see how the puzzle is stated poorly.  It gives you two well defined and not really obscure cases.  What's poorly is the human intuition on probability, and the puzzle should and does show this.

I disagree. The puzzle was stated in such a way that it's designed to make you think that the conditions of the second case are exactly the same as the first, except that they're specifying which ace you have. The whole point of the problem is that the conditions are not the same. Once I realized the conditions weren't the same, the probability came really easily.
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DStu

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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #123 on: January 23, 2013, 08:09:22 am »
+2

I disagree. The puzzle was stated in such a way that it's designed to make you think that the conditions of the second case are exactly the same as the first, except that they're specifying which ace you have. The whole point of the problem is that the conditions are not the same. Once I realized the conditions weren't the same, the probability came really easily.
I seriously don't get it. Exactly this is the only difference, as I understand this. There is no hidden trick, no distraction like in the xkcd169, it's like, one time you have an ace, the other time you have the ace of spades.

How would you formulate this?
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Re: Math request: Nomad Camp
« Reply #124 on: January 23, 2013, 08:12:41 am »
0

I disagree. The puzzle was stated in such a way that it's designed to make you think that the conditions of the second case are exactly the same as the first, except that they're specifying which ace you have. The whole point of the problem is that the conditions are not the same. Once I realized the conditions weren't the same, the probability came really easily.
I seriously don't get it. Exactly this is the only difference, as I understand this. There is no hidden trick, no distraction like in the xkcd169, it's like, one time you have an ace, the other time you have the ace of spades.

How would you formulate this?
I wouldn't. The point is, you never actually care about both questions - you only ever care about one - so it doesn't really make sense to compare them. I mean, show me a situation where the difference is important?
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