# Dominion Strategy Forum

• September 26, 2018, 02:44:52 am
• Welcome, Guest

### News:

DominionStrategy Wiki

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5  All

### AuthorTopic: In defense of Monopoly  (Read 21057 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

#### faust

• Mountebank
• Offline
• Posts: 2113
• Respect: +2927
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #75 on: March 07, 2016, 08:05:40 am »
+3

It has been 750 days since the original post by Kuildeous.

hjackson necroed this thread 32 days after its first death.
Polk5440 necroed this thread 105 days after its second death.
Kuildeous necroed this thread 246 days after its third death.
I (pacovf) necroed this thread 363 days after its fourth death.

I am currently holding the record for longest necro in this thread, and I am confident I will be able to defend the title for at least a year.

It would seem that pacovf has lost his title to RR. Which, let's be honest, always was your real intention, RR.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

• Minion
• Offline
• Posts: 721
• Doc Cod
• Respect: +552
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #76 on: March 07, 2016, 08:16:53 am »
+4

Someone rename this thread:  "The Necro Wars".  Then everyone immediately shut up and let the games begin.  See you in 2 years.
Logged
The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (1-1, 50%): 42 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

#### Kuildeous

• Cartographer
• Offline
• Posts: 3706
• Respect: +2123
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #77 on: March 07, 2016, 08:54:56 am »
+1

Huh, while rereading this thread (it has been a while), I saw a reference to the speed die, but I never researched it before. Then I found this: http://monopoly.wikia.com/wiki/Speed_Die

I was going to suggest a variant where each player has a series of tokens numbered 2 through 12 (evenly distributed or maybe with a curve). Each player plays that token for his die roll, but that token cannot be used again until he runs out. Maybe color some of them red to represent a reroll (with the usual stipulation that three in a row puts you in jail). But I didn't like that idea because you need the randomness that might put you on someone's monopoly. If you have enough tokens, you could tiptoe past the big, bad orange. In fact, without the random dice, orange might not even be the strongest color anymore.

The speed die is an interesting take. The Mr. Monopoly side would be a welcome sight early in the game that encourages buying up properties, but then it because a harsh mistress later on as it hastens players' doom. And actually, I like this idea better than my token idea (which I stole shamelessly from Niagara and Space Hulk).
Logged
A man has no signature

#### eHalcyon

• Offline
• Posts: 8689
• Respect: +9141
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #78 on: March 07, 2016, 01:15:39 pm »
0

With that tournament max game length, I suppose there are also rules in place to prevent stalling while in the lead?
Logged

#### Kuildeous

• Cartographer
• Offline
• Posts: 3706
• Respect: +2123
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #79 on: March 07, 2016, 02:50:33 pm »
+1

With that tournament max game length, I suppose there are also rules in place to prevent stalling while in the lead?

I do not recall any hard-and-fast rules on that. I suppose if a judge felt that there was an unsportsmanlike intentional attempt to stall the game, a ruling could be made.

I believe the only thing to keep that from happening is participant integrity, which of course is not always present, especially when there are prizes involved.

It's been about 20 years since I ran a Monopoly tournament. I'd have to think that something may have been added by now.
Logged
A man has no signature

#### pacovf

• Cartographer
• Offline
• Posts: 3330
• Multiediting poster
• Respect: +3663
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #80 on: March 07, 2016, 03:46:18 pm »
+1

Someone rename this thread:  "The Necro Wars".  Then everyone immediately shut up and let the games begin.  See you in 2 years.

I shall reclaim my title.

*marks March 7th 2018 on Google Calendar*
Logged
pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.

#### scott_pilgrim

• Jester
• Offline
• Posts: 997
• Respect: +1954
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #81 on: March 07, 2016, 04:18:45 pm »
0

I was going to suggest a variant where each player has a series of tokens numbered 2 through 12 (evenly distributed or maybe with a curve). Each player plays that token for his die roll, but that token cannot be used again until he runs out. Maybe color some of them red to represent a reroll (with the usual stipulation that three in a row puts you in jail). But I didn't like that idea because you need the randomness that might put you on someone's monopoly. If you have enough tokens, you could tiptoe past the big, bad orange. In fact, without the random dice, orange might not even be the strongest color anymore.

Huh, that's cool that you came up with that idea, because I thought of pretty much the same thing too.  Maybe 5 years ago or so, I was staying at my grandparents' house with my family, and we were looking for a game to play, and all we had was Monopoly, and then I suggested, why don't we make a list of all the combinations of rolls you can get, and then on your turn, you can choose which one you roll, but you can't reuse a roll until you've used every roll in the list.  Then we realized the game was never going to end that way because you never land on anyone's property (like you mentioned), so we decided after you've used every roll once, then you just start actually rolling the dice again normally.

Anyway, it actually didn't really add much to the game...it was just sort of a weird way of claiming properties at the beginning that was a little less random than the normal way.
Logged

#### liopoil

• Margrave
• Offline
• Posts: 2583
• Respect: +2472
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #82 on: March 07, 2016, 05:37:32 pm »
0

Someone rename this thread:  "The Necro Wars".  Then everyone immediately shut up and let the games begin.  See you in 2 years.

I shall reclaim my title.

*marks March 7th 2018 on Google Calendar*
only if this thread dies again today...
Logged

#### funkdoc

• Witch
• Offline
• Posts: 472
• Respect: +414
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2016, 05:39:31 pm »
+1

oh this is a thread huh

all i wanna say here is that monopoly deal is a perfectly nifty lil game and i'd 100x rather play that than the real thing

#### gkrieg13

• Minion
• Offline
• Posts: 509
• Respect: +461
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #84 on: March 07, 2016, 05:51:49 pm »
0

oh this is a thread huh

all i wanna say here is that monopoly deal is a perfectly nifty lil game and i'd 100x rather play that than the real thing

I <3 monopoly deal
Logged

#### Titandrake

• Mountebank
• Offline
• Posts: 2049
• Respect: +2442
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2018, 05:10:41 pm »
+12

Someone rename this thread:  "The Necro Wars".  Then everyone immediately shut up and let the games begin.  See you in 2 years.

I shall reclaim my title.

*marks March 7th 2018 on Google Calendar*

pacovf, you joked about doing it.

I actually did.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

#### Donald X.

• Dominion Designer
• Offline
• Posts: 4929
• Respect: +20244
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2018, 06:33:23 pm »
+4
Logged

#### pacovf

• Cartographer
• Offline
• Posts: 3330
• Multiediting poster
• Respect: +3663
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2018, 06:53:05 pm »
+4

Someone rename this thread:  "The Necro Wars".  Then everyone immediately shut up and let the games begin.  See you in 2 years.

I shall reclaim my title.

*marks March 7th 2018 on Google Calendar*

pacovf, you joked about doing it.

I actually did.

Man, imagine if I had actually noted it down on my calendar, then missed posting on the thread long enough that someone else managed to ninja me. That would be stupid.

...see you March 7th, 2021.
Logged
pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.

#### Ghacob

• Young Witch
• Offline
• Posts: 149
• J. They/them
• Respect: +204
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2018, 11:01:19 pm »
+4

Someone rename this thread:  "The Necro Wars".  Then everyone immediately shut up and let the games begin.  See you in 2 years.

I shall reclaim my title.

*marks March 7th 2018 on Google Calendar*

pacovf, you joked about doing it.

I actually did.

Man, imagine if I had actually noted it down on my calendar, then missed posting on the thread long enough that someone else managed to ninja me. That would be stupid.

...see you March 7th, 2021.

*marks March 6th 2021 on Google Calendar*
Logged
Gender happened.

#### popsofctown

• Offline
• Posts: 5233
• Respect: +2690
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2018, 01:52:33 am »
0

After playing more Catan, I think the only things that actually put Catan a step above Monopoly are the things that put Machi Koro a step above Candyland.  Or rather, the things that would put Machi Koro with random purchases a step above Candyland.  It's more fun to watch random benefits popup then move around a board with no control and sometimes into traps.  I'm not sure the trading and building mechanics actually add enough depth to make a difference.

I know these posts are because people want to talk about Monopoly.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

#### Awaclus

• Offline
• Posts: 10724
• (΄｡ ω ｡`)
• Respect: +11232
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #90 on: March 08, 2018, 02:15:03 am »
0

No, Monopoly is bad and Catan is good.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

#### popsofctown

• Offline
• Posts: 5233
• Respect: +2690
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #91 on: March 08, 2018, 02:16:49 am »
0

No, Monopoly is bad and Catan is good.
But I'm at, like, Monopoly is bad and Terra Mystica is good.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

#### Awaclus

• Offline
• Posts: 10724
• (΄｡ ω ｡`)
• Respect: +11232
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #92 on: March 08, 2018, 02:20:30 am »
0

No, Monopoly is bad and Catan is good.
But I'm at, like, Monopoly is bad and Terra Mystica is good.

Doesn't stop Catan from being good.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

#### Kuildeous

• Cartographer
• Offline
• Posts: 3706
• Respect: +2123
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #93 on: March 08, 2018, 09:12:02 am »
+1

I get where people are coming from when they criticize Catan's randomness. But I don't think it's the same as Monopoly. In Catan, you mitigate this luck. You do so from the very beginning. You pick your starting settlements. And there's a neat mechanic to level the playing field. If you pick first, then you also pick last. If you are the last player to place your first settlement, you're also the first player to place your second settlement. If you know what you're doing, it's really difficult to get screwed over in the initial placement.

And on top of that, you get to build up your infrastructure so that you get more benefit from future die rolls.

Now die luck can always be a problem. You have a 6 wood and an 8 clay, and has even a single 6 or 8 come up in the last 30 goddamn rolls? Why does this game hate me?! The comparison to Machi Koro is apt since I watched someone win with the 8 card (I think) and always rolling an 8 on her turn while the rest of us got nothing. And I can't deny that die luck will screw you over. What you're doing is mitigating risk.

But you can't do that in Monopoly. The way to mitigate risk is to buy up the property that gets landed on frequently, which you can't do if someone else buys it first. Trade negotiations can be used to mitigate this, but I don't know if that's enough to overcome that flaw.

So yeah, Catan has dice luck, but trading can help out. And even if you don't get the precious wood/clay combo, you likely can buy cards so you can use the bandit to steal wood/clay or monopoly to get what you need. You cannot help completely dry spells though.

I've become less enamored of Machi Koro since I found Valeria. Valeria has all the fun dice-rolling of Machi Koro but also lets you still collect resources even if the dice are cruel to you.
Logged
A man has no signature

#### Awaclus

• Offline
• Posts: 10724
• (΄｡ ω ｡`)
• Respect: +11232
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #94 on: March 08, 2018, 05:08:41 pm »
+2

Well, to be fair, the 3rd player in 4-player Catan has a clear disadvantage because the best two spots on the board were taken by the first two players and the third best isn't as good. The advantage of getting to place both of your starting settlements without anyone ruining your plans in between pretty much mitigates this for the last player in turn order, but the 3rd player gets the short end of the stick in every regard. In 3-player games it's not a problem though.

In practice, it's super rare that you can't trade into the cards that you need. Either you'll be producing the wood and the clay on your own, or you have access to a rare resource which allows you to get really good deals when trading with other players.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

#### weesh

• Conspirator
• Offline
• Posts: 247
• MOAR MAGPIES
• Respect: +341
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #95 on: March 08, 2018, 05:32:30 pm »
+2

I'm really a fan of the tournament rules of Catan; they prohibit trading to people.

Since you must trade 4:1 to the bank if you have no ports, port spaces are always taken in the initial placements.  One thing this does is increase the number of viable places on the board, helping the 3rd player feel less pinched.

It also RADICALLY increases the speed of the game.  A normal game with tournament rules takes about 15 min, and the fastest game I've ever played was 6 minutes.
The reason it is so fast is because if you are not allowed to trade, you often roll the dice, see you can do nothing, and pass the dice, turn done in 4 seconds.
When trading is allowed, turns can go on more than a minute as you try to finagle your way into the cards you need.

---

Monopoly lives and dies on it's rule set.  if you add lots of shitty house rules that balloon the game time, yeah, the experience will be worse.
if you include the modern official rule variants that get game times down to 30 min, it's actually a bit fun to play.  monopoly is only fun for about 30 min, so if you finish the game in 20 min, you'll probably think "hey, that was good".
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 05:42:47 pm by weesh »
Logged

#### GendoIkari

• Online
• Posts: 7041
• Respect: +7855
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #96 on: March 08, 2018, 06:02:21 pm »
+2

I'm really a fan of the tournament rules of Catan; they prohibit trading to people.

Since you must trade 4:1 to the bank if you have no ports, port spaces are always taken in the initial placements.  One thing this does is increase the number of viable places on the board, helping the 3rd player feel less pinched.

What tournament is this? Every tournament is going to have its own set of rules. I found a couple different rules for a couple different tournaments, neither banned trading. That sounds like it would be a completely different game... maybe better, but probably worse. Trading is pretty fundamental to Catan.

Quote
It also RADICALLY increases the speed of the game.  A normal game with tournament rules takes about 15 min, and the fastest game I've ever played was 6 minutes.
The reason it is so fast is because if you are not allowed to trade, you often roll the dice, see you can do nothing, and pass the dice, turn done in 4 seconds.
When trading is allowed, turns can go on more than a minute as you try to finagle your way into the cards you need.

I find this very hard to believe. Yes, the average turn would be faster, but you would need far more turns per game, since reaching 10 points would be much harder without being able to trade with other players. Also, even though many turns would only be about 4 seconds; several turns would still easily take at least 30 seconds while players think about their options; or even just go through the physical motions of trading with the bank; playing development cards; dealing with moving the robber, etc.

*Edit*

The Catan National Championship 2018, run by Catan Studio, doesn't mention anything about trading with other players being removed. As a side-note, I strongly disagree with one of their rules dealing with winning the game:
Quote
A player has won if he or she has 10 or more victory points (although only 10 will be counted for the ranking) and it is the
players turn. If a player does not notice that he or she has 10 points, the player must wait until the next turn before winning
the game (assuming no earlier player wins, and the player still has 10 points).

This is wrong and goes against the official rules as written. There's no requirement to "declare" or "notice" your victory. The moment that it is your turn, and you have 10 points, the game is over and you have won. If you don't notice and don't say anything, and the next player takes his turn, that's irrelevant, that turn happened after the game was already over.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 06:06:47 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

#### weesh

• Conspirator
• Offline
• Posts: 247
• MOAR MAGPIES
• Respect: +341
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #97 on: March 08, 2018, 07:20:16 pm »
0

What tournament is this?

The online tournaments and ladder hosted by java settlers.
My mistake for presuming that was the norm everywhere.

Quote
I find this very hard to believe. Yes, the average turn would be faster, but you would need far more turns per game, since reaching 10 points would be much harder without being able to trade with other players. Also, even though many turns would only be about 4 seconds; several turns would still easily take at least 30 seconds while players think about their options; or even just go through the physical motions of trading with the bank; playing development cards; dealing with moving the robber, etc.

Make no mistake, 15 min games only happen with players that have been around the block.  You need to have memorized the four items on the cheat sheet, know how to get to 10 points efficiently, and know the main strategies for getting to 10.

I played ~100 games with the no trade rule (online, and in person), and I bet zero of them surpassed 20 min.
when my friends played settlers in person with no trading, we did 15 min including new board setups between games.
I've done a 15 min game from a closed and packed box.

Even when people had bank trading and card playing and construction in the same turn, they are typically done in 15-20 seconds per turn.
Turns where people were merely building road settlement were regularly done in 10 seconds or less.
One thing you are missing in your analysis is that a much higher percentage of turns are that you are unable to build.  when trading is allowed, you can have games where something is purchased almost every turn.  there are LOTS of 4 second turns when trading isn't allowed.

Quote
That sounds like it would be a completely different game... maybe better, but probably worse. Trading is pretty fundamental to Catan.

I am in 100% agreement with you that it is a different game.  totally breaks the mold.
but not worse.  not better.  different.

ports are more important.  trading to the bank happens.  you can't trade away a victory.  you don't have the leader getting blacklisted while the other players try to catch up.

It's more technical, and less touchy-feely.  It's more skill, and less politics.

For some people, this is the clearly better game.  For some, it ruins the game.

Logged

#### markusin

• Cartographer
• Offline
• Posts: 3667
• I also switched from Starcraft
• Respect: +2220
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #98 on: March 08, 2018, 07:36:27 pm »
0

I would usually play Catan with my dad and brother. We do makes trades and all, but most of our trades are done at the halfway point I think. In general we are pretty stingy with our cards, so having a starting settlement on a harbor isn't too out of the norm for us.

Also, my brother wins the majority of Catan games, and has the most experience with the game (being the only one of us to have played it online for some length), so it seems like there is a subtle skill to the game and it's hhard for my dad and I to pinpoint the things my brother does right.

Monopoly is fun when you aren't in the mood to think too much and you're at home where you can do other stuff after being eliminated.
Logged

#### Awaclus

• Offline
• Posts: 10724
• (΄｡ ω ｡`)
• Respect: +11232
##### Re: In defense of Monopoly
« Reply #99 on: March 08, 2018, 08:42:44 pm »
+1

it seems like there is a subtle skill to the game and it's hhard for my dad and I to pinpoint the things my brother does right.

That's definitely true. Even if someone is playing the game better than you, it looks like they're doing pretty much the same thing as you are from your perspective.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way