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[minced]

Dominion:Underworld Transgression started as a joke. It's now a (mostly) playable expansion with around eleven cards themed around criminals and sharing a loose common mechanic: cards that fight amongst themselves like petty thugs.

Among the cards solidifying this theme are:

• Catacombs, a powerful but perilous drawer/trasher that "trashes" cards into a shared mat where they can be drawn by other Catacombs users;
• Outlaw, a card that gives opponents with at least two cards worth at least $5 each in hand curses (note that Outlaw is such a card!);
• Slum, a cheap village that cannot draw cards in the presence of opposing slums;
• Blackmail, a card that gives out "scandals" that initially handicap a player but provide free trashing.

The cards are available here, conveniently sorted into lists of cards that need lots of feedback and cards that are probably balanced enough for playtesting:
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1la8dGiAIxe6jZqWlGdDuGJlb0Z2icimbWBxrSIOiBUM

Old designs for retainer and some other cards are preserved below, so the old discussion still will make sense to newcomers.
As for why the name was changed, interested playtesters decided that "Underworld" had more of an infernal connotation than a criminal one.

SLUM (revised)
--
+2 Actions
Each opponent may reveal a slum from hand. If nobody does, +1 card.
Action - (2)

HIGHWAYMAN (was BRIGAND, changed b/c this name might be more recognizable)
--
+1 Action
+(1)
Each other player reveals his hand, then discards the card with the highest cost from his hand.
Each other player draws a card.
-
Action/Attack - (3)
It's a very, very spammable attack that interacts wonderfully with any card-discarding attack. It is better than silver for minion players - and the hand reveal lets you know if you should use minion's attack! It is also powerful against mid-game opponents, where estates give much less protection against the attack, but it won't help you get to $6.

EDIT: STILL MORE CARDS

MINSTREL
--
+1 card
+1 action

If any minstrel remains in the supply, +$1, trash a card from your hand, and gain a minstrel.
-
ACTION (3)

The dirty hippie plague! I'm sure conspirator players will love it. Minstrels aren't criminals, but they weren't the most respected of personages (see also: courtesans), so they fit.

RACKETEER
--
+$2
Each player reveals the top three cards of his deck, discards either all the treasures
 or all non-treasures from these cards, then returns the others to the top of the deck.
ACTION/ATTACK (4)

RETAINER
--
+1 card
+1 action

+ 1 coin if you have no retainers in hand. Each opponent discards a retainer or reveals a hand with no retainers.
-
ACTION/ATTACK (2)

Back in the day, nobles kept "retainers" as private armies of thugs, hence the (somewhat obscure) name. The +1 coin if you have no other copies in hand means it's quite inferior to peddler - may try a version without this nerf. The $2 price point is probably too cheap for the nerfed version and too expensive for the unnerfed version.

UNNERFED RETAINER
+1 card
+1 action
+$1

Each opponent discards a retainer or reveals a hand with no retainers.
-
ACTION/ATTACK (4)

This would definitely be a powerful $4 card - however, peddler alone isn't enough to win, so it would be interesting to see whether a player spends $4 buys monopolizing this stack or doing something else that actually gives them a chance of winning.

This card is prisoner's dilemma incarnate - if several players get it, I am hoping they all end up with sucky hands and no benefit.

Edit: On further recollection, Retainer is just as obnoxious a card in multiplayer as the old "Slum" was (thanks to wanderingwinder for feedback), and since it's an opening buy, it dramatically exacerbates first-player advantage. Not sure if i should keep this card.

Another Edit: peddler can EASILY make the difference between a win or loss, see
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201107/05/game-20110705-210348-6027cc16.html

[Tejayes]

Let me start by rewording the cards to make them more like official cards:

SLUM
--
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Each other player discards a Slum card from his hand, or reveals his hand containing no Slum cards.
-
Action/Attack - (2)

COURTESAN
--
+2 Cards
You may discard up to two cards from your hand. +1 Action for each card discarded this way.
-
Action - (3)

(4) FORGERY (4)
--
(4)
+1 Buy
When you play this, each other player may reveal a Treasure card from his hand. -( ) equal to the highest ( ) value revealed.
--
Treasure - (4)

(Note: ( ) is basically the same as $. I just like to write it this way because it's similar to the Coin logo on the cards)

Now, for my thoughts:

SLUM: I think this should be a (3) card like Village. It does get a little iffier in games with more players, but in two-player games, the attack power balances out the related penalty.

COURTESAN: I see this more as a (4) card at the very least. Unless your hand is full of awesome cards you don't want to lose, you can easily find a crappy card to discard to make this a lot like a Laboratory. Two crappy cards, and you can basically make this better than Lab. And if you don't have any Action cards, you don't need to discard.

FORGERY: Again like Slum, this card loses a lot of power in 3-4 player games. Perhaps you could make it work more like Tribute or Contraband, where just one other player is affected/gets to affect you. I like this card idea, though. Mostly because I have a card in my own fan expansion that's like it (it's a Treasure worth (4) initially, but loses (1) for every Action card in play). I would change the name just so that it's not too easily confused with Forge (like Counterfeit or something).

ETA -- My bad on the Slum vanillas. Fixed now.

[WanderingWinder]

Slum is way overpowered, and should probably cost 4. At anything cheaper, I'm going to want to buy as many of these as fast as I possibly can on any board where the actions are going to be good at all.
Courtesan: I think this is the most interesting card of the bunch, though it's also overpowered. You could put it at 4 and it would still be good. Probably too good. Not such a spectacular option for 5 though. Maybe slap a money or a buy on there and make it 5?
Forgery... well, I don't know what to make of this. First off, it needs a 'can't be less than 0 clause'... much much worse with more players.... and I just don't like it in general. It's super-powerful at first, then by late game it's like a non-terminal herbalist. I don't really like this progression of effects.

[Thisisnotasmile]

SLUM is a Laboratory with an attack built in. How can it only cost $4? And did you SERIOUSLY originally price it at $2? I get that your SLUM could be discarded by someone else's, but likewise you can discard everyone else's SLUMs. To me, it's a minimum of $5 as an alternative to Laboratory.

[WanderingWinder]

For some reason, I was reading slum as a village, not a lab. As a lab, I don't think there's any cost it could be printed at.

[Tydude]

The way he's talking about it I think it's meant to be +1 Card; +2 Actions.

[minced]

Slum is meant to be +1 Card, +2 Actions - sorry!

[rogerclee]

Blackmail seems way too good. It's a $4 cursing silver-equivalent, and even though its curses aren't really curses, you might be underrating how devastating -$1 on a 3 card hand is early in the game, they will often not even be able to buy silver. I don't think it's good enough to be priced at 5 though, so either make the card a little better and price it at 5 or make it a little worse and charge 4 (maybe give the Black Mark cards +1 action). 

Courtesan is strong on non-trashing boards. Very strong, and I would often buy it in preference to Lab. In fact the obvious comparisons to Laboratory make me want to say that it should be firmly priced at 5, at which it is an interesting card, but at that point it is probably worse than Lab on average so who knows.

My reaction to Ringleader is that it's very very good, hard to ignore on almost all boards, and leads to very degenerate games because it combo's so well with itself. I would go so far as to say that I would probably never buy gold with Ringleader on the board, since it plays so well with itself, the power actions, or even +actions cards. It's possible you could price it at $7.

Counterfeit might be way too strong a deterrent to action-chaining decks that are low on money. Also, clarify something to me, can I reveal a Counterfeit to knock -$3 off my opponents' Counterfeit? If I can, then that sucks because it makes the game incredibly random, and then the card is not playable. If I can't, then I like the card more, and well, that's what playtesting is for.

Overall though I think you did a good job with the theme and if you were in the LA area this is the kind of thing I'd be happy to playtest.

[Tejayes]

Time for some rewording magic (note: some of this rewording changes the mechanics just a bit for clarity's sake):

BLACKMAIL
--
Each other player gains a Black Mark card.
-
Action/Attack - (4)

BLACK MARK
--
Trash a card from your hand.
-
While this is in play, cards cost (1) more. Trash this card from play during your cleanup phase.
-
*This card is not in the supply.
-
Action - (0*)

RINGLEADER
--
Reveal the top three cards from your deck. Play one Action card other than Ringleader revealed this way, then put the other revealed cards into you hand.
-
Action - (6)

BRIGAND
--
+1 Action
+(1)
Each other player reveals his hand, then discards the card with the highest cost from his hand.
Each other player draws a card.
-
Action/Attack - (3)


And now, for my thoughts:

BLACKMAIL/BLACK MARK: Unlike rogerclee, I'm not exactly seeing the strength of the Black Mark so much that Blackmail must be a (4) with that effect alone. If the Black Mark is put into the hand, that's six cards in hand, easily lessening the blow. If not, then the Black Mark won't be seen until deck 3, when the opponents should have enough cards to not make the (1) caveat that bad. Annoying, yes, but not horrible. Finally, Black Mark would not be a deterrent to trashing strategies, because it looks like Black Mark can be trashed itself.

That leads me to believe that there should be something else to the Black Mark. Perhaps if the Black Mark was set in front of you at all times, instead of put into your hand or discard pile. You can then use an action to trash a card from your hand, then trash the Black Mark permanently. This way, it'll also prevent Chapel or other trashers from getting rid of it so easily.

One last point: similar to Forgery sounding too much like Forge, Black Mark sounds too much like Black Market to me. I would name it Scandal, because isn't that what Blackmailing does, anyway? Exposing other peoples' scandals, which makes their lives worse until they take care of it, with a cost.

RINGLEADER: Here, however, I agree with rogerclee about how good this card is. Especially if you draw a +Action(s) card this way. Maybe you could reduce it to +2 Cards instead, which would lessen the cost a bit as well, I think. Another possible caveat would be that if multiple Action cards are revealed, those not played are discarded.

BRIGAND: The wording you had before hand sounded like you could just opt to discard a Victory card (but not a Curse) and get something else if an opponent plays this. If that was the intention, then forgive the change. This new way, however, makes this card sounds like a massive pain early on. Second decks could have their star cards negated very easily. Near the endgame, though, it'd be much easier to discard a Province or Colony and get something better in return.

[DG]

Slums should cost 3. If nobody else gets them then they are weaker than a village since each opponent can still play reactions. If more than one player is competing for slums then the price is self-balancing. I've got two problems with it though. The first problem is that the village concept allows a lock down when paired with big draw cards. Once one player can draw and play all their deck each turn their slums might shut any opponent out of the game if they have no alternative source of actions. Secondly I'm not sure that hostile slums are a good theme.

The attack could instead be passive defence if you keep slums as a village - Cost 2. +2 actions, when you play a slum each other player may reveal a slum card from hand: if no player does so +1 card.

If you kept the attack component then it might work better as a type of criminal that fights amongst themselves: thugs +2$, name a treasure card, each opponent must discard a thugs, discard a named card, reveal a hand containing neither.

[KMueller]

I could see some situations where Ringleader could really hurt you, in the same way that a Golem that pulls a Throne Room/Loan late game could hurt.

[Thisisnotasmile]

I could see some situations where Ringleader could really hurt you, in the same way that a Golem that pulls a Throne Room/Loan late game could hurt.

I'd be pretty impressed to see a Golem pull a loan.

[minced]

That leads me to believe that there should be something else to the Black Mark. Perhaps if the Black Mark was set in front of you at all times, instead of put into your hand or discard pile. You can then use an action to trash a card from your hand, then trash the Black Mark permanently. This way, it'll also prevent Chapel or other trashers from getting rid of it so easily.

One last point: similar to Forgery sounding too much like Forge, Black Mark sounds too much like Black Market to me. I would name it Scandal, because isn't that what Blackmailing does, anyway? Exposing other peoples' scandals, which makes their lives worse until they take care of it, with a cost.

RINGLEADER: Here, however, I agree with rogerclee about how good this card is. Especially if you draw a +Action(s) card this way. Maybe you could reduce it to +2 Cards instead, which would lessen the cost a bit as well, I think. Another possible caveat would be that if multiple Action cards are revealed, those not played are discarded.

BRIGAND: The wording you had before hand sounded like you could just opt to discard a Victory card (but not a Curse) and get something else if an opponent plays this. If that was the intention, then forgive the change. This new way, however, makes this card sounds like a massive pain early on. Second decks could have their star cards negated very easily. Near the endgame, though, it'd be much easier to discard a Province or Colony and get something better in return.

Very good points. I agree about brigand black mark and have implemented Tejayes's wording for these cards - also very interesting note about how Brigand's effect changes throughout the game.

As for ringleader, I think it would need massive nerfing at $5, but the +3 cards -> +2 cards halves its power, making it a very different card. So I'm going to try both the original ringleader and the nerfed version at different price points when I get around to testing. See updates in original post.

PS: sadly, I am not in LA - in Massachusetts.

[KMueller]

I'd be pretty impressed to see a Golem pull a loan.

That is an excellent point you bring up, and well stated.

I think the same could be said for Golem pulling a Throne Room and then a Lookout.

[Thisisnotasmile]

I'd be pretty impressed to see a Golem pull a loan.

That is an excellent point you bring up, and well stated.

I think the same could be said for Golem pulling a Throne Room and then a Lookout.

You'd have to have the lookout in your hand if you're going to TR it ;]

[minced]

If you kept the attack component then it might work better as a type of criminal that fights amongst themselves: thugs +2$, name a treasure card, each opponent must discard a thugs, discard a named card, reveal a hand containing neither.

Hmmm. I'm not sure a "name a treasure and make everyone else discard it" is balanced. The prototype cutpurse card did something of this sort and was nerfed down to the seaside version IIRC. I tried crafting a version of "thug" (retainer) that was tamer, but mine is probably even more unbalanced since it isn't terminal. Here's a slightly edited version:

Strong Thug
--
+1 card
+1 action
+$2.  Each other player discards a thug or reveals a hand with no thugs.
-
ACTION/ATTACK

Middling Thug
--
+1 card
+1 action
+$2 if you have no other thugs in hand.  Each other player discards a thug or reveals a hand with no thugs.
-
ACTION/ATTACK, ($4)

Baby Thug (d'aww...)
--
+1 action
If you have no other thugs in hand, +$2 and +1 card. Each other player discards a thug or reveals a hand with no thugs.
ACTION/ATTACK, ($4)

Unfortunately, all these cards share a single weakness: except for Smithy strategies, EVERYONE wants at least one thug unless their opponent got one first. That's kind of mean to the second player. Any ideas on how to ameliorate the first-player advantage and make this card less universally good?

[minced]

Courtesan: I think this is the most interesting card of the bunch, though it's also overpowered. You could put it at 4 and it would still be good. Probably too good. Not such a spectacular option for 5 though. Maybe slap a money or a buy on there and make it 5?
Forgery... well, I don't know what to make of this. First off, it needs a 'can't be less than 0 clause'... much much worse with more players.... and I just don't like it in general. It's super-powerful at first, then by late game it's like a non-terminal herbalist. I don't really like this progression of effects.

You're right, Courtesan should cost four, since whenever you have a curse or green card in hand it's effectively a laboratory.

As for forgery (now named counterfeit), you're right that it's crap in late game and does not scale properly on multiplayer boards. I think it's possible to remove its weakness in multiplayer games by basing value on the hand of the next player, not on all hands, but I'm less sure that it's actually an interesting card, given that horse traders, contraband, and baron all have similar drops in utility.

Furthermore, if we base Counterfeit value on the next (or previous) player's hand, a player 1 that opens with counterfeit forces player 2 to get silver on one of his/her buys, making first-player advantage worse in two player games. Similarly, if player 1 doesn't open with silver, then player 2 can screw player 1by opening counterfeit on his/her final turn, but I think the former effect is more pronounced than the latter.

It seems I'm multiplayer-blind. I'll try to propose a slightly different Counterfeit that doesn't mess up player 2.

[WanderingWinder]

I'm all over NERFED retainer, even at $4. Yeah, it's really really good. And the huge first-turn advantage it gives makes it unprintable. Minstrels are really strong and will run out very, very fast. I mean, it's like chapel trashing, isn't dead later. Probably broken. And watch out for rotten borough- with another sub-duchy VP, three pile endings are super possible, super fast. Gardens will have a field day.

[minced]

I'm all over NERFED retainer, even at $4. Yeah, it's really really good. And the huge first-turn advantage it gives makes it unprintable.

I realized as much in my latest post. Do you think Baby Thug is a more reasonable card? I'm still trying to negate the first-turn advantage.

Minstrels are really strong and will run out very, very fast. I mean, it's like chapel trashing, isn't dead later. Probably broken. And watch out for rotten borough- with another sub-duchy VP, three pile endings are super possible, super fast. Gardens will have a field day.

I absolutely intended for rotten borrough to be a trigger card for three-pile endings, but it's probably too strong; I am an inexperienced gardener and didn't realize how much this card would help a gardens strategy. As for minstrel, do you think removing the +$1 would help to balance it?

[WanderingWinder]

Middling thug is actually, I *think*, the weakest of those three. Baby thug is only marginally weaker than the strong version, because not drawing the card first lets you chain them. All three are definitely too powerful. Heck, they're probably all too good at 5 - they compare to Grand market, and that makes me think that 6 is around where you want them. But the first-turn advantage is going to be there big-time on any card with that mechanic where it discards other copies of itself.
On Minstrel, take the $1 off of it and move it to $4 and maybe, MAYBE you can do it. But it's sorta comparable to chapel strength even without comboing with action cards, and chapel is really really powerful. I'm still suspicious of it.

[minced]

On Minstrel, take the $1 off of it and move it to $4 and maybe, MAYBE you can do it. But it's sorta comparable to chapel strength even without comboing with action cards, and chapel is really really powerful. I'm still suspicious of it.

How about moving BabyThug's nerf to minstrel? That way getting ten minstrels would suck:

STARVING MINSTREL
--
+1 action
If there are no other minstrels in hand, +1 card. If any minstrels are left in the supply, you may trash a card from your hand, and gain a minstrel.
-
ACTION - (3)

Also note that if remake or upgrade is in play, minstrel is ridiculously good at $4 because you can remodel it into a $5. I think it might actually be best, with the clashing nerf, to price it at $3. Also keep in mind that cantrips (+1 card +1 action) are not actually universally good - any deck where drawing dead actions is a strong possibility doesn't want that many cantrips - so this card is still more situational than chapel.

[minced]

Middling thug is actually, I *think*, the weakest of those three. Baby thug is only marginally weaker than the strong version, because not drawing the card first lets you chain them. All three are definitely too powerful. Heck, they're probably all too good at 5 - they compare to Grand market, and that makes me think that 6 is around where you want them. But the first-turn advantage is going to be there big-time on any card with that mechanic where it discards other copies of itself.

OK, time for the nerf hammer!

EXCEEDINGLY GROUCHY THUG
--
+1 CARD
+1 ACTION
If you have no other thugs in hand, +$2. You may not buy this card while any Thugs is in play. Each opponent discards a Thugs or reveals a hand without them.

ACTION/ATTACK (4)

This way, Thugs get BOUGHT by the guy with the most ironworks or workshops, and get PLAYED by the guy with the best deck-drawing - note that these are conflicting goals! I think the card might actually be useable now.

Edit: Note that Exceedingly Grouchy Thug, along with the revised Minstrel, actually become much stronger in three-card hands, providing a sort of soft counter to militia.

[minced]

The expansion now has around 13 cards. I'm holding off on introducing any more until the current card ecosystem gets balanced. There's also a design document linked in the original post that should be easier to navigate than the original post's giant wall o' text.

The discussion herein has addressed a lot of weaknesses in the original design. Some cards such as "Thug" give massive first-player advantages. Others, such as Counterfeit, simply were outright worthless in multiplayer games. I greatly appreciate the advice, and have redesigned several cards based on the comments received. I also tend to really like cantrips and +1 action cards, so my expansion was overly biased towards those cards,
 
That said, I don't want to outright throw away mechanics. Thug/Slum/Retainer's brutal nature could actually make for a really fun multiplayer game; two players could get caught up in a Thug-fest only to let a third player win by pursuing a safer silver-based deck. Playing a Counterfeit only to get $1 because the guy next to you revealed his only gold - or instead to get a $4 counterfeit because your opponent got money - makes the card rather exciting - and Counterfeit's weakness in multiplayer is actually not hard to address by borrowing a page from Tribute's playbook.

I don't think the cards are anywhere close to balanced yet. Card costs will change. Mechanical details may change. +2 cards may become +3. Actions may get redesigned as treasures or vice-versa: note the history of Cornucopia's Horn of Plenty card, because changes this drastic do happen! I do, however, think that the cards in their present form introduce some interesting mechanics and create some interesting tactical combos. The theme isn't really unified yet, but there are some common elements:

• Cards are cheap and can often be gained quickly (rotten borough, minstrel)
• Cards can either do significant harm to your deck or significant good to your opponent's hand if over-used (e.g. brigand, rotten borough, blackmail);
• Lots of attacks.

I'd like to strengthen this theme if possible and make sure the cards are useable. All commentary is welcome! I really would like to test this expansion and I think it's getting to the point where it's playable.

[minced]

Lots of cards have changed. The suckiest (minstrel and highwayman) have either been removed or completely revamped, and around four new cards have been added, so take a look at

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1la8dGiAIxe6jZqWlGdDuGJlb0Z2icimbWBxrSIOiBUM