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Author Topic: Possession, a poll!  (Read 16654 times)

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Tahtweasel

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2012, 04:35:06 pm »
0

I'm the lone vote for poor balance/bad design.

There is a large subset of Possession games that become completely degenerate - because you end up playing your opponent's deck much more often than you play your own. When trashing exists, these games can become indefinite.

Try playing with Farming Village, Golem, Possession, and Chapel. The best you can hope for is that one player is lucky enough to get significantly far ahead, and take exponentially more and more possession-turns, and manages to three-pile before you both trash down to zero treasure and zero coin-producing actions.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2012, 04:39:24 pm »
+1

I wouldn't mind Possession if it had the "no more than one extra turn per turn" language like Outpost.  Getting multiple turns in a row (even using someone else's deck) seems patently unfair.  I suppose there is the argument that the extremely high cost of Possession justifies these powerful uses (or, that it would never be viable without such uses), but I'd rather have it be single use with a tweak to make up for the reduction in power or...well...not exist at all.
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paddyodoors

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2012, 04:56:49 pm »
0

I'm the lone vote for poor balance/bad design.

There is a large subset of Possession games that become completely degenerate - because you end up playing your opponent's deck much more often than you play your own. When trashing exists, these games can become indefinite.

Try playing with Farming Village, Golem, Possession, and Chapel. The best you can hope for is that one player is lucky enough to get significantly far ahead, and take exponentially more and more possession-turns, and manages to three-pile before you both trash down to zero treasure and zero coin-producing actions.

Why would either player be trashing down to zero treasure?  Do you mean using an opponent's chapel to trash his own deck?  If so, cards trashed during Possession are instead placed in the discard pile, not the trash.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2012, 05:01:10 pm »
+2

I'm the lone vote for poor balance/bad design.

There is a large subset of Possession games that become completely degenerate - because you end up playing your opponent's deck much more often than you play your own. When trashing exists, these games can become indefinite.

Try playing with Farming Village, Golem, Possession, and Chapel. The best you can hope for is that one player is lucky enough to get significantly far ahead, and take exponentially more and more possession-turns, and manages to three-pile before you both trash down to zero treasure and zero coin-producing actions.

Why would either player be trashing down to zero treasure?  Do you mean using an opponent's chapel to trash his own deck?  If so, cards trashed during Possession are instead placed in the discard pile, not the trash.

If you're playing more hands with your opponent's deck than your own, and he's playing more with your deck than his own, it's in each player's best interests to make their own respective decks and bad as possible.

Edit: (Buying-power-wise).
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Geronimoo

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2012, 05:04:27 pm »
+1

If your opponent's deck is capable of KC-Possession, then your deck is actually going to be his deck the rest of the game (well, 3 out of 4 turns). This means you want to destroy your own deck's economy if you're also capable of KC-Possession. This way he can't buy anything in those 3 turns, but you'll be able to buy stuff with his deck. This means he'll want to destroy his own economy as well, resulting in a stalemate where neither player can buy anything anymore.

Ninja'd ...
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Kirian

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2012, 05:31:55 pm »
0

While I chose variance, I think the main thing is the non-enjoyment factor of the Possessed player.  If the KC-Possession can't finish the game, then you have one player playing 4/5 of the turns... which isn't strategically "unfair," just really annoying for the Possessed player.
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toaster

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2012, 05:44:29 pm »
0

The poll likes an option for a neutral or slightly positive opinion.

I used to hate possession until I figured out how to play against it...then it became an interesting puzzle when Possession was in play and a feasible option.

Multi-Possession turns are really annoying, but other than that I'm fairly "meh" on the card.  I've never thought to myself "you know what, I haven't had a possession game in a while, I could go for one about now", but I don't hate the card either.
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2012, 12:54:11 am »
0

Hate this card.
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Ferrouswheel

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2012, 01:38:13 pm »
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These are my cards, there are many like them, but these are mine.

Plus it makes table placement much more important.
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gman314

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2012, 10:59:11 pm »
0

I really hate this card in two circumstances in particular:
1) When playing in real life because the time factor is more noticeable than on isotropic and as anyone except the player doing the possessing, you get a lot of downtime. While in theory everyone should do just as much possessing, it sometimes feels like whoever buys it first plays it much more.

2) When I don't notice it. This is particularly true when Chapel is on the board and I don't notice Possession. What tends to happen is I will make a strong engine and then my opponent will start playing my turns and getting provinces on them.
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BJ Penn

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2012, 11:20:24 pm »
0

Masquerade/Ambassador interaction is really the only thing about it I don't like, and even those games can be fun and skill intensive once you learn how to play it.

It probably isn't even in my top 5 for cards that can ruin a nice game. (IGG and tournament come to mind immediately)
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ecq

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2012, 12:05:44 am »
0

I really hate this card in two circumstances in particular:
1) When playing in real life because the time factor is more noticeable than on isotropic and as anyone except the player doing the possessing, you get a lot of downtime. While in theory everyone should do just as much possessing, it sometimes feels like whoever buys it first plays it much more.

2) When I don't notice it. This is particularly true when Chapel is on the board and I don't notice Possession. What tends to happen is I will make a strong engine and then my opponent will start playing my turns and getting provinces on them.

I don't think everyone does as much possessing in theory.  There's a pretty massive advantage to the first person doing the possessing.  Each Possession play is an extra turn, so that person is a turn ahead in terms of buys.  Further, it's a huge blow if that player possesses the other player's first Possession hand or worse, his first $6p hand.
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gman314

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2012, 06:48:22 pm »
0


I don't think everyone does as much possessing in theory.  There's a pretty massive advantage to the first person doing the possessing.  Each Possession play is an extra turn, so that person is a turn ahead in terms of buys.  Further, it's a huge blow if that player possesses the other player's first Possession hand or worse, his first $6p hand.

True. I guess both in theory and in practice there's a huge advantage to having the first Possession.
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popsofctown

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2012, 10:24:53 pm »
0

Possession is not degenerate, it's fascinating.  One guy I saw on iso complained about the card, then trashed wads of his own fivers when I didn't have remotely enough possessions to play his deck more than he could, and he didn't buy a single Duchy. 
There is a large subset of people that don't understand optimal possession strategy and think it's worse than it is.  For example, I very much doubt the golem example is really degenerate.  If you want to beat the golem possession deck without using Possession, the last card you want to use is chapel, because your deck will be too thin to accomodate Duchies.  I'm not saying duchies definitely beat chapelled, golemmed possessions because that is a pretty strong possession case, but you haven't even tried the correct counterstrategy so you can't pass judgment on the card.  It makes you sound like the guy who threw up a thread here to complain that Apprentice is broken.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2012, 10:34:22 pm »
0

Possession is not degenerate, it's fascinating.  One guy I saw on iso complained about the card, then trashed wads of his own fivers when I didn't have remotely enough possessions to play his deck more than he could, and he didn't buy a single Duchy. 
There is a large subset of people that don't understand optimal possession strategy and think it's worse than it is.  For example, I very much doubt the golem example is really degenerate.  If you want to beat the golem possession deck without using Possession, the last card you want to use is chapel, because your deck will be too thin to accomodate Duchies.  I'm not saying duchies definitely beat chapelled, golemmed possessions because that is a pretty strong possession case, but you haven't even tried the correct counterstrategy so you can't pass judgment on the card.  It makes you sound like the guy who threw up a thread here to complain that Apprentice is broken.
But apprentice IS broken!
;)
No I mean, possession can be an annoying card to play against. I get that and I agree with it. And especially with masq or ambassador, because well, you lose your precious cards. And people don't like that. But there are lots of other things that are also annoying to play against, and I don't see this as being too far beyond them: cursers, ghost ship, consistent militia/goons, KC/Goons/Masq pin, ambassador in general, tournament....

Galzria

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2012, 10:40:51 pm »
0

Possession is not degenerate, it's fascinating.  One guy I saw on iso complained about the card, then trashed wads of his own fivers when I didn't have remotely enough possessions to play his deck more than he could, and he didn't buy a single Duchy. 
There is a large subset of people that don't understand optimal possession strategy and think it's worse than it is.  For example, I very much doubt the golem example is really degenerate.  If you want to beat the golem possession deck without using Possession, the last card you want to use is chapel, because your deck will be too thin to accomodate Duchies.  I'm not saying duchies definitely beat chapelled, golemmed possessions because that is a pretty strong possession case, but you haven't even tried the correct counterstrategy so you can't pass judgment on the card.  It makes you sound like the guy who threw up a thread here to complain that Apprentice is broken.
But apprentice IS broken!
;)
No I mean, possession can be an annoying card to play against. I get that and I agree with it. And especially with masq or ambassador, because well, you lose your precious cards. And people don't like that. But there are lots of other things that are also annoying to play against, and I don't see this as being too far beyond them: cursers, ghost ship, consistent militia/goons, KC/Goons/Masq pin, ambassador in general, tournament....

Except that they are MY cards, and I don't like people touching my things. I agree, it isn't broken or any more annoying to play against than those other cards/combos... It just rubs me wrong. I play my deck, you play yours. Whoever wins, wins.

Besides, if you need MY deck to win, what does that say about who's better?  ;)
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Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

lympi

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2012, 12:14:13 am »
0

Besides, if you need MY deck to win, what does that say about who's better?  ;)

Well, if I win, I guess I'm the better player, right?

I like Possession. Any card that forces you to think in a completely different way than you normally would is a solid card in my opinion.

Consider Possession a middle man of sorts. In the real world, a middle man sees an opportunity to make a buck by putting himself in between a buyer and a seller… they broker a deal and take a cut in the process. Stock brokers, eBay, Wal-Mart, FLGSs, Malcolm Reynolds, craigslist, pimps, politicians… it's all middle men, all the way down.

If your opponent sees your deck is better than their own, they'll slide a Possession into their own deck, play yours and take a cut of "your" earnings.

I loathe middle men, but I also respect them.
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Galzria

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2012, 12:47:29 am »
0

Besides, if you need MY deck to win, what does that say about who's better?  ;)

Well, if I win, I guess I'm the better player, right?

I like Possession. Any card that forces you to think in a completely different way than you normally would is a solid card in my opinion.

Consider Possession a middle man of sorts. In the real world, a middle man sees an opportunity to make a buck by putting himself in between a buyer and a seller… they broker a deal and take a cut in the process. Stock brokers, eBay, Wal-Mart, FLGSs, Malcolm Reynolds, craigslist, pimps, politicians… it's all middle men, all the way down.

If your opponent sees your deck is better than their own, they'll slide a Possession into their own deck, play yours and take a cut of "your" earnings.

I loathe middle men, but I also respect them.

As I said... I don't have any problem with the card in terms of strategy... It has it's uses, and it has it's counters. It isn't "broken" in any sense... I just plain don't like it.

I can play my deck (X), so that it's stronger than your deck Y, but have to worry that Y+n%(X)>X, or I can keep my deck junked so that %n(X) is itsy bitsy. Since I generally don't enjoy filling my deck up with sub-optimal cards, I don't like Possession.

As a result, most the time I ignore it, and the truth is that most of the time that's the right play. By the time your deck is set up to play mine with regularity, I'm far enough ahead that if we split 50/50 for the rest of the game, I'll win.

On those occasions that I get my a** handed to me by possession, well... I don't fault mt opponent... But more often than not I just roll my eyes and browse the news until the game ends. Yeah, they took a legitimate strategy. But I still feel they did it because they knew they couldn't compete with my deck one-on-one***.

***This feeling may or may not be accurate. It's just how I feel***

At the end of the day, on Iso, I don't really care of it's there or not. I prefer to not play in veto mode, and don't decline any boards. But it's a card I disallow on my phones randomizer if I'm setting up a live game.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

WanderingWinder

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2012, 08:35:47 am »
0

Besides, if you need MY deck to win, what does that say about who's better?  ;)

Well, if I win, I guess I'm the better player, right?

I like Possession. Any card that forces you to think in a completely different way than you normally would is a solid card in my opinion.

Consider Possession a middle man of sorts. In the real world, a middle man sees an opportunity to make a buck by putting himself in between a buyer and a seller… they broker a deal and take a cut in the process. Stock brokers, eBay, Wal-Mart, FLGSs, Malcolm Reynolds, craigslist, pimps, politicians… it's all middle men, all the way down.

If your opponent sees your deck is better than their own, they'll slide a Possession into their own deck, play yours and take a cut of "your" earnings.

I loathe middle men, but I also respect them.

As I said... I don't have any problem with the card in terms of strategy... It has it's uses, and it has it's counters. It isn't "broken" in any sense... I just plain don't like it.

I can play my deck (X), so that it's stronger than your deck Y, but have to worry that Y+n%(X)>X, or I can keep my deck junked so that %n(X) is itsy bitsy. Since I generally don't enjoy filling my deck up with sub-optimal cards, I don't like Possession.

As a result, most the time I ignore it, and the truth is that most of the time that's the right play. By the time your deck is set up to play mine with regularity, I'm far enough ahead that if we split 50/50 for the rest of the game, I'll win.

On those occasions that I get my a** handed to me by possession, well... I don't fault mt opponent... But more often than not I just roll my eyes and browse the news until the game ends. Yeah, they took a legitimate strategy. But I still feel they did it because they knew they couldn't compete with my deck one-on-one***.

***This feeling may or may not be accurate. It's just how I feel***

At the end of the day, on Iso, I don't really care of it's there or not. I prefer to not play in veto mode, and don't decline any boards. But it's a card I disallow on my phones randomizer if I'm setting up a live game.
I'm fine with this, but...
When you say the feeling may not be accurate, man you are right, it is not. Well, I mean, sometimes it might be, just like Saboteur can be a desparation ploy. But... the thing is, the possession was there from the beginning. Having a possession strategy can certainly make your deck stronger. And they may not have built the engine that beats yours because you could possess them then. Certainly the last NV/Bridge/Possession game I saw, I did NOT go for the NV/bridge in a game that I think I could have pulled it off maybe a hair better than my opponent, but it would be very close. I did not, in fact plan on going NV/Bridge at all, because I saw possession on the board, and I know that it's a really good counter. So when he DID, I went for the possession. Could I have won the mirror? Maybe. Maybe not. It would have been close, and quite luck-dependent, for sure. Does that mean I 'knew I couldn't compete with him'? Certainly not. I ain't scared of nobody in dominion (you really need to not be whilst playing a game competitively, even when you objectively know you're outmatched, as I know I sometimes am; but like, I can hang in chess games against grandmasters (eventually I almost always lose) largely because at least in the course of a game, I feel I can play as well as them, even though I know objectively know that I probably won't) except maybe Donald X, since he's seen things I can't dream of and could through some weird new strategy at me with cards that don't exist for the public.

jomini

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2012, 05:45:48 pm »
+2

I dislike possession and believe it to be less well designed for the following reasons:
1. It takes a long time to play. Yeah, I know cursing games can take more turns, but possession engines (reliably playing possession multiple times per turn either via multiple copies or with TR/KC) already are a lot of clicks/shuffling. Worse, possession rewards you for doing all the things that slow down the game - going for attacks so you opponent has to self sabotage if they play them (of course this leads to other game slowing bits like using reaction cards to offset this resulting in even more decision points during gameplay) - greening early and slowly dragging your deck to a 3 pile and having to do deck management for two different decks (is it better to play this minion to help my current, possessed hand, or to swap my own hand - perhaps one likely to be possessed in turn). KC/Possession deserves a special mention as being unbelievably game slowing. Possession just introduces a lot of analysis paralysis in the game and a lot of mechanical time increases that are just about never there otherwise
2. It viciously rewards turn order in 3er or 4er. Yeah, I know other stuff like masq, smugglers, and tribute are all position dependent, but one of the great things about Dominion is that, in general, where players are seat relative to each other has limited impact. Because the utility of possession depends on the other player there is a great reward for being upstream from a middling player (good enough to build a strong engine, bad enough not to self-sabotage to make possession worse). Likewise, there is great utility in being downstream from the player who went for something that can't go possession (e.g. someone going gardens or jack).
3. It introduces high variance. 6P is harder to hit than 8; while we often weigh cards with the assumption that every potion could have been a silver, in game potions increase variability as they make for fewer degenerate hands (e.g. copper x2, gold x2 is degenerate with copper x2, silver x3); because you can't substitute 2 coins, action cash, or any sort of trash for benefit for the potion portion of the cost you end up with fewer combinations that make 6P than 8.
4. It is exceedingly unfriendly to new players. Possession requires that you look at your deck in a way very different from the rest of Dominion. Having walked a dozen players through possession, I have never found a player who gets how to play possession or against it on the first several passes - this as opposed to say all of Hinterlands that could be introduced with reasonable success. Including the cards that are just a bit weird to wrap your head around with possession - like embargo, outpost, ambassador, etc. makes it much harder to just deal out 10 kingdom cards and have players get up to speed.

Now none of these are individually missing in dominion - hag makes the game long, tribute hugely rewards play order, plat can add huge variance, and black market can create weirdness for new players - but possession takes all the things that I tend to dislike and combines them in one.
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popsofctown

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2012, 07:48:30 pm »
0

Good post.

The variance criticism applies to all of Alchemy, and I have to agree I don't think Potions are a good thing.  Familiar's 2p and Possession's 5p suck.

Possession is definitely complicated, but Alchemy is definitely an expert expansion.  I don't know if it's labelled as such or not.


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Schlippy

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2012, 06:28:43 pm »
0

I simply dislike it because it is by far the most complicated card in Dominion - it is the only card where I had to look into the FAQ more than once.

Besides that the risk/reward has a much higher variance than any other card.
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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2012, 06:35:08 pm »
0

I like it. It's too swingy, but otherwise is a fine card and adds a unique wrinkle to the strategy.
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werothegreat

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Re: Possession, a poll!
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2012, 06:44:57 pm »
0

I'm still confused as to its interaction with Outpost.

If player A plays Possession, and makes player B play Outpost, does B play a 3 card hand, then play a normal 5 card hand, or is he just stuck with a single 3 card hand before A's turn?
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