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[olneyce]

It's a really stupid card.  I know that this is not saying anything people don't already know.  But it's a really stupid card.

[Davio]

I don't like that it creates extra downtime for the other players.
Possession is especially nasty in engine-y games and in those games, there's enough downtime already.

[Lekkit]

And that's just in 2 player games. After playing it in a 4 player game my dislike for the card begun.

[Geronimoo]

It's a very cool card. For some reason it's hated by a lot of people. In Magic the Gathering there's a card called Mindslaver that does pretty much the exact same thing, yet people don't hate the card.

[Eevee]

It's a very cool card. For some reason it's hated by a lot of people. In Magic the Gathering there's a card called Mindslaver that does pretty much the exact same thing, yet people don't hate the card.

It's just not fun at all, especially so because of the variance there is in which hands your opponent steals from you.
(It's well balanced and all that, but still my second most hated card because of the frustration it often causes.)

[Geronimoo]

If you don't like the variance, why are you playing Dominion?

[arcee]

Mindslaver's one of my favourite Magic cards, but as soon as I saw Possession I wondered "why didn't Mindslaver do this?"  Since one of the common benefits of Mindslaver isn't what you do with the turn, but what they don't (and indeed, if you can recur it you just win), you don't get to have as much fun with their turns.

[Eevee]

I generally think there is just the right amount of variance in dominion (and fwiw i gamble for a living, variance per ce doesnt really annoy me). However with possession the thing is, all the variance it creates is emotionally negative. Now that I'm typing this, I realize you could say all the attacks are not enjoyable with the same argument, but I just feel possession forces us to hope our opponent gets unlucky so we can reap the benefits. So many times I've gone "blahh there goes my only gold, see you next shuffle", I dont ever recall thinking "yayy possession is fun".

This could very well just be me though.

And no, I dont think its a good card and I would guess I'm a slight winner with it just by ignoring it often.

[Jfrisch]

so possession games essentially falls into 3 cases.
1. Too slow
    In the majority of games possession is simply too slow to have an effect on game play, in these types of games, aside from serving as a trap, possession is a card spot wasted (though, to be fair, no worse than, say, transmute or thief, or Forge, and being a trap does lead to the interesting problem of determiinng WHEN possession is a trap)
2. fast enough to be worth buying but not completely game warping
    These games possession is psychologically frustrating (in that people dislike the feeling of a good hand being stolen even more than they dislike the feeling of a good hand being discarded (i.e. I personally can still get irritated when my opponents minion hits my dream hand and gives me 2 coppers and 2 estates). Aside from the psychological frustration is the inevitable swinginess, on both sides, of how valuable the card is (it can range, from gaining a colony and you opponent losing that hand, too essentially helpful).
    Beyond that it is game warping in an interesting, and difficult to play manner, Green too hard and your opponent(s) will crush you, Green too soft and your opponent will reap the benefit of your deck AS well as that of ones own. In these games Posession leads to frustrations involving swinginess but, at least in my opinion, leads to enough game benefit to be a worthwhile card.
3. games where possession is completely and utterly dominant
       In any game where you can ramp up to >1 possession per turn relatively early the card changes the game beyond recognition, having a deck which can buy green becomes a BAD thing. People attempt to trash there economy to the point where they can no longer buy even estates, the game becomes silly. Worse, with good play on both sides, the game devolves into the behind player daring to buy enough coppers to gain an estate, and getting further behind for it. While some people may find this game play enjoyable, these types of games are, for the vast majority of players, degenerate in an unsatisfying way, these games also are as close as dominion gets to stalemates, where neither player wants to buy any cards.
The amount of games of type 3 (which are in some sense, analogous to KC/goons/masq pins but MUCH easier to pull off) compared to type 2 as well as the irritatingness of the increased swinginess in type 2 games is the primary issue that Possession suffers.

[WanderingWinder]

so possession games essentially falls into 3 cases.
1. Too slow
    In the majority of games possession is simply too slow to have an effect on game play, in these types of games, aside from serving as a trap, possession is a card spot wasted (though, to be fair, no worse than, say, transmute or thief, or Forge, and being a trap does lead to the interesting problem of determiinng WHEN possession is a trap)
2. fast enough to be worth buying but not completely game warping
    These games possession is psychologically frustrating (in that people dislike the feeling of a good hand being stolen even more than they dislike the feeling of a good hand being discarded (i.e. I personally can still get irritated when my opponents minion hits my dream hand and gives me 2 coppers and 2 estates). Aside from the psychological frustration is the inevitable swinginess, on both sides, of how valuable the card is (it can range, from gaining a colony and you opponent losing that hand, too essentially helpful).
    Beyond that it is game warping in an interesting, and difficult to play manner, Green too hard and your opponent(s) will crush you, Green too soft and your opponent will reap the benefit of your deck AS well as that of ones own. In these games Posession leads to frustrations involving swinginess but, at least in my opinion, leads to enough game benefit to be a worthwhile card.
3. games where possession is completely and utterly dominant
       In any game where you can ramp up to >1 possession per turn relatively early the card changes the game beyond recognition, having a deck which can buy green becomes a BAD thing. People attempt to trash there economy to the point where they can no longer buy even estates, the game becomes silly. Worse, with good play on both sides, the game devolves into the behind player daring to buy enough coppers to gain an estate, and getting further behind for it. While some people may find this game play enjoyable, these types of games are, for the vast majority of players, degenerate in an unsatisfying way, these games also are as close as dominion gets to stalemates, where neither player wants to buy any cards.
The amount of games of type 3 (which are in some sense, analogous to KC/goons/masq pins but MUCH easier to pull off) compared to type 2 as well as the irritatingness of the increased swinginess in type 2 games is the primary issue that Possession suffers.

Analysis is more or less spot on except... there's very very few games of type 3. Also, this is one of the great arguments for allowing anytime resigning.

[Tahtweasel]

so possession games essentially falls into 3 cases.
1. Too slow
    In the majority of games possession is simply too slow to have an effect on game play, in these types of games, aside from serving as a trap, possession is a card spot wasted (though, to be fair, no worse than, say, transmute or thief, or Forge, and being a trap does lead to the interesting problem of determiinng WHEN possession is a trap)
2. fast enough to be worth buying but not completely game warping
    These games possession is psychologically frustrating (in that people dislike the feeling of a good hand being stolen even more than they dislike the feeling of a good hand being discarded (i.e. I personally can still get irritated when my opponents minion hits my dream hand and gives me 2 coppers and 2 estates). Aside from the psychological frustration is the inevitable swinginess, on both sides, of how valuable the card is (it can range, from gaining a colony and you opponent losing that hand, too essentially helpful).
    Beyond that it is game warping in an interesting, and difficult to play manner, Green too hard and your opponent(s) will crush you, Green too soft and your opponent will reap the benefit of your deck AS well as that of ones own. In these games Posession leads to frustrations involving swinginess but, at least in my opinion, leads to enough game benefit to be a worthwhile card.
3. games where possession is completely and utterly dominant
       In any game where you can ramp up to >1 possession per turn relatively early the card changes the game beyond recognition, having a deck which can buy green becomes a BAD thing. People attempt to trash there economy to the point where they can no longer buy even estates, the game becomes silly. Worse, with good play on both sides, the game devolves into the behind player daring to buy enough coppers to gain an estate, and getting further behind for it. While some people may find this game play enjoyable, these types of games are, for the vast majority of players, degenerate in an unsatisfying way, these games also are as close as dominion gets to stalemates, where neither player wants to buy any cards.
The amount of games of type 3 (which are in some sense, analogous to KC/goons/masq pins but MUCH easier to pull off) compared to type 2 as well as the irritatingness of the increased swinginess in type 2 games is the primary issue that Possession suffers.

Analysis is more or less spot on except... there's very very few games of type 3. Also, this is one of the great arguments for allowing anytime resigning.

There are more games of type 3 than you think. You're both (1) very far to the Big Money end of the BM/Engine spectrum, and (2) on the extreme right tail of the talent distribution. You turn a lot of games into type 1 where most players would be playing type 3.

[Asklepios]

For the amusement of the boards, a chat log from a game today. Its a board with wharf on it, and my opponent as first player has just opened 5/2 with wharf, to my 4/3 silver/silver.
Things start to look bad as he acquires an early Bank before I've even hit $5, and I realise that I am looking at a high likelihood of game loss. So I buy a potion, then manage to acquire a Possession.

0:46 Asklepios: gl
0:48 i beat you: pocssesion require no skill
0:48 Asklepios: Interesting thought
0:49 Asklepios: I'd say its a weak card certainly
0:49 i beat you: lol not really


At this stage, just to make his point he buys a potion (with $7 and two buys, no less). He has a massive cash lead, two wharves, two banks. I have less cash, one Possession, one Wharf, and am now desperately buying Warehouses and Apothecaries in the hope that I can play his (stronger) deck often enough to gain an advantage in green cards.

Worth noting that he never bought a Possession, and fell short of a Province by $2 in a potion hand at least once.

0:49 Asklepios: And normally I'd reject it in favour of say 2 wharfs + money
0:50 i beat you: i say its dumb
0:50 i beat you: owwowow
0:50 i beat you: gay
0:50 i beat you: i hate this
0:50 Asklepios: resign then
0:51 Asklepios: fact is you're likely to win from a 5/2 opening with wharf on the board
0:51 Asklepios: possession increases variance
0:51 Asklepios: hence it was a sensible play when starting from a weaker position statistically
0:52 Asklepios: Here, check this link if you believe its an overpowered card, as it really isn't.
0:52 Asklepios: http://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/03/alchemy-possession/
0:53 i beat you: lol its just i once played poccession with kings court and i literally was about to flip on this guy


Note that if resigning didn't count as a game lose, I'd usually disconnect when someone uses "gay" as a perjorative.

Still, I've learnt to try to meet ignorance with education...

0:53 Asklepios: essentially the turn i buy possession, i could have got a province if that potion was silver
0:53 Asklepios: so i need at least two provinces off it to make it worthwhile
0:53 Asklepios: not counting the action economy from not playing wharves
0:53 Asklepios: but it was my only hope as you had reached wharves and big moneys first


It goes a bit wrong, as I have to hit duchy then province to keep ahead of the PPR, so I risk hitting his Wharf on a Possessed turn, and draw a slightly larger worthless hand. Luckily his enhanced next hand only nets him a duchy, at a stage when a province would have been disastrous.

0:54 Asklepios: ah shame to have to feed you a wharf draw

But keeping close tabs on the score, I grab a duchy and an estate so that if he gets the last province he'll lose.
Luckily this doesn't turn out to be an issue, as I possess him again in time to grab the last Province for a solid victory.

0:55 i beat you: wow so gay
0:55 i beat you has returned to the lobby.

And, uh, gg to you too, I suppose.

---

Amusing anecdote aside, I think its fair to say that Possession creates higher variance. Like many cards, its a decent desperation play when you know that a more conventional game has you at high odds of losing.

But Jfrisch is right: its normally a trap, as my opponent demonstrated by grabbing a potion he never used, and compromising his stronger opening luck because of it.

I'm entirely happy though that it takes as much skill to play and play against as any other Dominion card. Yes, it can warp the game a little, and yes it does force you to adjust your strategy when your opponent buys one or more copies of it. But most good cards do!

edit: and here's the game link: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120416-165541-50064918.html

[jotheonah]

My issue is that it's self perpetuating. Say Possession is the only potion cost out there and both players have bought a potion. You're both racing to build a deck that can buy a Possession. My opponent gets one first. I (frustratingly) wait for my hands to line up $6P. Finally, 2 turns after his Possession-buy, I see a Gold-Silver-Copper-Potion hand and, inevitably, that's the turn he draws and plays his Possession. Now my opponent has two Possessions and I'm right back where I was - waiting for the money to line up.

So where at first we were playing equally skillfully, his good luck and my bad luck just compound over and over again, because the more Possessions he has the more he's Possessing me and taking my Possession-buying hands.

That doesn't happen all the time, but when it does I just find it to be the most frustrating thing in the game. 

[WanderingWinder]

My issue is that it's self perpetuating. Say Possession is the only potion cost out there and both players have bought a potion. You're both racing to build a deck that can buy a Possession. My opponent gets one first. I (frustratingly) wait for my hands to line up $6P. Finally, 2 turns after his Possession-buy, I see a Gold-Silver-Copper-Potion hand and, inevitably, that's the turn he draws and plays his Possession. Now my opponent has two Possessions and I'm right back where I was - waiting for the money to line up.

So where at first we were playing equally skillfully, his good luck and my bad luck just compound over and over again, because the more Possessions he has the more he's Possessing me and taking my Possession-buying hands.

That doesn't happen all the time, but when it does I just find it to be the most frustrating thing in the game. 

Simple. Don't buy a potion, and laugh all the way to the win.

[jotheonah]

My issue is that it's self perpetuating. Say Possession is the only potion cost out there and both players have bought a potion. You're both racing to build a deck that can buy a Possession. My opponent gets one first. I (frustratingly) wait for my hands to line up $6P. Finally, 2 turns after his Possession-buy, I see a Gold-Silver-Copper-Potion hand and, inevitably, that's the turn he draws and plays his Possession. Now my opponent has two Possessions and I'm right back where I was - waiting for the money to line up.

So where at first we were playing equally skillfully, his good luck and my bad luck just compound over and over again, because the more Possessions he has the more he's Possessing me and taking my Possession-buying hands.

That doesn't happen all the time, but when it does I just find it to be the most frustrating thing in the game. 

Simple. Don't buy a potion, and laugh all the way to the win.

I'm gradually learning this is the way to go. But truth be told, I get a perverse pleasure from being on the other side of the scenario I just described.

I think a pretty common progression from bad new player to mediocre player can be summed up like this: "I used to hate Attack cards. And then I started buying them."

[paddyodoors]

Simple. Don't buy a potion, and laugh all the way to the win.

The man's got a point -- that was simple...

[dondon151]

Simple. Don't buy a potion, and laugh all the way to the win.

If that Potion had been a Silver instead, then his opponent could have gotten a Province instead of a Possession!



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