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Author Topic: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine  (Read 6417 times)

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tlloyd

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2012, 03:26:42 pm »
+1

If you're planning on building up to an engine that plays more than one Library/Watchtower per turn, than you absolutely do prefer to load up on the disappearing Village, because otherwise the second Library/Watchtower won't be doing much drawing.  (Unless of course there's additional discard/cycling around as well.)

This is exactly the kind of silly argument I've been talking about (no offense to chwhite): "You don't want your village to draw one more card because then your Watchtower will draw one less card!" The whole point of Library/Watchtower is that you'll draw up to a set handsize -- regardless of how many cards your villages drew for you. Library and Watchtower neutralize the advantage drawing villages generally have over non-drawing villages, they don't turn it into a disadvantage!
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O

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2012, 04:03:54 pm »
0

If you're planning on building up to an engine that plays more than one Library/Watchtower per turn, than you absolutely do prefer to load up on the disappearing Village, because otherwise the second Library/Watchtower won't be doing much drawing.  (Unless of course there's additional discard/cycling around as well.)

This is exactly the kind of silly argument I've been talking about (no offense to chwhite): "You don't want your village to draw one more card because then your Watchtower will draw one less card!" The whole point of Library/Watchtower is that you'll draw up to a set handsize -- regardless of how many cards your villages drew for you. Library and Watchtower neutralize the advantage drawing villages generally have over non-drawing villages, they don't turn it into a disadvantage!

The point is that you need +actions in these games and dissapearing villages basically become much much better than villages, because their either the same card with a +1card boosted (IE, you have library in hand), or your Shanty Town most likely activates for +draw.

Do you care if you have a village or a shanty town in a hand with library? Usually not. But you're welcome to lose 2-8 in a set of ten of these engine games where the only difference is I buy shanty town/fishing village and you buy village.

Hamlet IS uniquely superior because it gives you a cellar-type effect for your crappy coppers aswell.
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tlloyd

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2012, 04:38:54 pm »
0

If you're planning on building up to an engine that plays more than one Library/Watchtower per turn, than you absolutely do prefer to load up on the disappearing Village, because otherwise the second Library/Watchtower won't be doing much drawing.  (Unless of course there's additional discard/cycling around as well.)

This is exactly the kind of silly argument I've been talking about (no offense to chwhite): "You don't want your village to draw one more card because then your Watchtower will draw one less card!" The whole point of Library/Watchtower is that you'll draw up to a set handsize -- regardless of how many cards your villages drew for you. Library and Watchtower neutralize the advantage drawing villages generally have over non-drawing villages, they don't turn it into a disadvantage!

The point is that you need +actions in these games and dissapearing villages basically become much much better than villages, because their either the same card with a +1card boosted (IE, you have library in hand), or your Shanty Town most likely activates for +draw.

Do you care if you have a village or a shanty town in a hand with library? Usually not. But you're welcome to lose 2-8 in a set of ten of these engine games where the only difference is I buy shanty town/fishing village and you buy village.

Hamlet IS uniquely superior because it gives you a cellar-type effect for your crappy coppers aswell.

Hamlet and Inn are often better than plain Village with Library/Watchtower, but they are not strictly superior (not sure what you meant by "uniquely" superior) because you may regret having to discard any of the cards you have in hand in order to get the +Actions.

As for Fishing Village, clearly it's stronger than Village -- but that's generally true even without Library/Watchtower. L/W eliminate FV's only real weakness, making FV much better than Village. But the reason FV is so strong is not because it is non-drawing; it's the coin and duration effect. If FV also drew a card, that would make FV stronger still -- even in a game with L/W.

As for Shanty Town, it's only potentially better than Village because it can potentially draw more cards!!! So I'm not sure that does much for your argument.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 05:03:17 pm by tlloyd »
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O

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2012, 04:42:32 pm »
0

If you're planning on building up to an engine that plays more than one Library/Watchtower per turn, than you absolutely do prefer to load up on the disappearing Village, because otherwise the second Library/Watchtower won't be doing much drawing.  (Unless of course there's additional discard/cycling around as well.)

This is exactly the kind of silly argument I've been talking about (no offense to chwhite): "You don't want your village to draw one more card because then your Watchtower will draw one less card!" The whole point of Library/Watchtower is that you'll draw up to a set handsize -- regardless of how many cards your villages drew for you. Library and Watchtower neutralize the advantage drawing villages generally have over non-drawing villages, they don't turn it into a disadvantage!

The point is that you need +actions in these games and dissapearing villages basically become much much better than villages, because their either the same card with a +1card boosted (IE, you have library in hand), or your Shanty Town most likely activates for +draw.

Do you care if you have a village or a shanty town in a hand with library? Usually not. But you're welcome to lose 2-8 in a set of ten of these engine games where the only difference is I buy shanty town/fishing village and you buy village.

Hamlet IS uniquely superior because it gives you a cellar-type effect for your crappy coppers aswell.

Hamlet and Inn are often better than plain Village with Library/Watchtower, but they are not strictly superior (not sure what you meant by "uniquely" superior) because there you may regret having to discard any of the cards you have in hand in order to get the +Actions.

As for Fishing Village, clearly it's stronger than Village -- but that's generally true even without Library/Watchtower. L/W eliminate FV's only real weakness, making FV much better than Village. But the reason FV is so strong is not because it is non-drawing; it's the coin and duration effect. If FV also drew a card, that would make FV stronger still -- even in a game with L/W.

As for Shanty Town, it's only potentially better than Village because it can potentially draw more cards!!! So I'm not sure that does much for your argument.

My argument is that we should play mirror matches with library engines, me using shanty town and you using a vanilla village if you don't understand why Shanty Town is superior in this case :p. They're either equal (Library in hand) or ST is superior (No library in hand) if you have sufficient +actions (say you're combining this case with FV)
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tlloyd

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2012, 04:50:59 pm »
0

If you're planning on building up to an engine that plays more than one Library/Watchtower per turn, than you absolutely do prefer to load up on the disappearing Village, because otherwise the second Library/Watchtower won't be doing much drawing.  (Unless of course there's additional discard/cycling around as well.)

This is exactly the kind of silly argument I've been talking about (no offense to chwhite): "You don't want your village to draw one more card because then your Watchtower will draw one less card!" The whole point of Library/Watchtower is that you'll draw up to a set handsize -- regardless of how many cards your villages drew for you. Library and Watchtower neutralize the advantage drawing villages generally have over non-drawing villages, they don't turn it into a disadvantage!

The point is that you need +actions in these games and dissapearing villages basically become much much better than villages, because their either the same card with a +1card boosted (IE, you have library in hand), or your Shanty Town most likely activates for +draw.

Do you care if you have a village or a shanty town in a hand with library? Usually not. But you're welcome to lose 2-8 in a set of ten of these engine games where the only difference is I buy shanty town/fishing village and you buy village.

Hamlet IS uniquely superior because it gives you a cellar-type effect for your crappy coppers aswell.

Hamlet and Inn are often better than plain Village with Library/Watchtower, but they are not strictly superior (not sure what you meant by "uniquely" superior) because there you may regret having to discard any of the cards you have in hand in order to get the +Actions.

As for Fishing Village, clearly it's stronger than Village -- but that's generally true even without Library/Watchtower. L/W eliminate FV's only real weakness, making FV much better than Village. But the reason FV is so strong is not because it is non-drawing; it's the coin and duration effect. If FV also drew a card, that would make FV stronger still -- even in a game with L/W.

As for Shanty Town, it's only potentially better than Village because it can potentially draw more cards!!! So I'm not sure that does much for your argument.

My argument is that we should play mirror matches with library engines, me using shanty town and you using a vanilla village if you don't understand why Shanty Town is superior in this case :p. They're either equal (Library in hand) or ST is superior (No library in hand) if you have sufficient +actions (say you're combining this case with FV)

If that's your argument, then it is misplaced. The debate is not Shanty Town vs. Village. The debate is "disappearing village" (one that does not replace itself, or results in a decreased handsize) vs. "drawing village." It's somewhat ironic then that you are using Shanty Town as the champion of the non-drawing villages, when it's only potential advantage over village is that it may draw more. Guess what, level 2 Cities will beat Shanty Towns in the match you proposed. Why? Because they draw more!
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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2012, 05:00:45 pm »
0


If that's your argument, then it is misplaced. The debate is not Shanty Town vs. Village. The debate is "disappearing village" (one that does not replace itself, or results in a decreased handsize) vs. "drawing village." It's somewhat ironic then that you are using Shanty Town as the champion of the non-drawing villages, when it's only potential advantage over village is that it may draw more. Guess what, level 2 Cities will beat Shanty Towns in the match you proposed. Why? Because they draw more!


I'm also up to playing the same mirrormatch where you buy cities and I buy shanty towns, if you're seriously considering using that flawed of an argument.  ;)  We certainly aren't ignoring cost differences.
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qmech

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2012, 05:06:18 pm »
0

There's some violent agreement here.
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tlloyd

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2012, 05:13:18 pm »
0


If that's your argument, then it is misplaced. The debate is not Shanty Town vs. Village. The debate is "disappearing village" (one that does not replace itself, or results in a decreased handsize) vs. "drawing village." It's somewhat ironic then that you are using Shanty Town as the champion of the non-drawing villages, when it's only potential advantage over village is that it may draw more. Guess what, level 2 Cities will beat Shanty Towns in the match you proposed. Why? Because they draw more!


I'm also up to playing the same mirrormatch where you buy cities and I buy shanty towns, if you're seriously considering using that flawed of an argument.  ;)  We certainly aren't ignoring cost differences.

I honestly can't tell if you're playing dumb on purpose just to drag the debate out, or if you simply failed to read the whole thread. If your argument is that non-drawing villages are better than drawing villages in games with L/W because they tend to be cheaper, then say so. That would be logical. But that's not what chwhite said:

...you absolutely do prefer to load up on the disappearing Village, because otherwise the second Library/Watchtower won't be doing much drawing.

And that's not what you have been saying either:

The point is that you need +actions in these games and dissapearing villages basically become much much better than villages, because their either the same card with a +1card boosted (IE, you have library in hand), or your Shanty Town most likely activates for +draw.

Although frankly I'm not sure you know what you're saying.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 05:19:27 pm by tlloyd »
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O

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2012, 05:18:11 pm »
0

I pretty clearly stated my argument in my post.

Shanty town without draw to X does one of two things, one of which is better than vanilla village, one of which is worse.
Shanty town WITH draw to X does one of THREE things, one of which is better than vanilla village, one of which is the same, one of which is worse.

The "worse" option in ST-DrawtoX is relatively more unlikely than the better, making ST better than village in draw-to-X engines.

Capiche? 
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ftl

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2012, 05:31:42 pm »
0

In general, speaking of not just shanty town: non-drawing villages always have some sort of advantage to offset the fact that they are non-drawing. In the presence of Library or Watchtower, being non-drawing is not a disadvantage at all; it's basically neutral. Thus, the additional benefit of the non-drawing village gets to be used without the drawback, making it powerful.
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tlloyd

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2012, 05:34:34 pm »
0

I pretty clearly stated my argument in my post.

Shanty town without draw to X does one of two things, one of which is better than vanilla village, one of which is worse.
Shanty town WITH draw to X does one of THREE things, one of which is better than vanilla village, one of which is the same, one of which is worse.

The "worse" option in ST-DrawtoX is relatively more unlikely than the better, making ST better than village in draw-to-X engines.

Capiche?

Perhaps we could agree that Shanty Town is not strictly a drawing or non-drawing village. Perhaps we could also agree that Shanty Town is better when it acts like a drawing village than when it acts like a non-drawing village. We might also agree that the discussion was about whether non-drawing villages have an advantage over drawing villages when combined with Library or Watchtower. We could then conclude that your argument "Shanty Town > Village" is not quite responsive, even if true.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2012, 05:36:45 pm »
+1

Library and Watchtower neutralize the advantage drawing villages generally have over non-drawing villages, they don't turn it into a disadvantage!

I don't think that's true if you're using Library to draw the cards.  Yes, the number of cards you ultimately end up with will be the same, but Library includes the option to set aside action cards, which gives slightly better control over what is drawn.

That said, you make a good point above.
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tlloyd

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2012, 05:38:11 pm »
0

In general, speaking of not just shanty town: non-drawing villages always have some sort of advantage to offset the fact that they are non-drawing. In the presence of Library or Watchtower, being non-drawing is not a disadvantage at all; it's basically neutral. Thus, the additional benefit of the non-drawing village gets to be used without the drawback, making it powerful.

This I completely agree with. It is quite a contrast with many of the preceding arguments. 
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tlloyd

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2012, 05:40:46 pm »
0

Library and Watchtower neutralize the advantage drawing villages generally have over non-drawing villages, they don't turn it into a disadvantage!

I don't think that's true if you're using Library to draw the cards.  Yes, the number of cards you ultimately end up with will be the same, but Library includes the option to set aside action cards, which gives slightly better control over what is drawn.

That said, you make a good point above.

This is also a valid point. I would suggest that it is somewhat offset by the fact that a plain Village gives you a better chance to get to your Library in the first place, but point taken.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2012, 08:51:11 pm »
+2

I've never seen such massive disagreement from people who basically agree with each other.

Oh wait, I live in the US and occasionally follow politics.

() | (_) ^/

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Re: The (Disappearing Village) (Draw up to X) engine
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2012, 10:23:52 am »
0

"Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic. "


Yep.  I'm sure I want to reply.  Thanks for the heads up, bot. =)


===========

Totally resurrecting this thread to say that I just played another game with this engine...

These are by FAR the most fun engines to play.

In a game with no trashing, I just reamed an opponent who was playing a Minion Stack (split 1-9 in his favor) with Native Village, Watchtower, Baron, and ONE Vault.  Split Provs 6-2, and had two Duchies as icing.  This included a 3-Province purchase on the last turn (with $24 actual coin!  No megaturn-gainers, cost-reducers, or TfBs involved!).

It was a wild ride.  I say again, these are by FAR the most fun engines to play.

IMHO, of course.  YMMV.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 01:07:25 pm by () | (_) ^/ »
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