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Author Topic: No more torturer for us!  (Read 10514 times)

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Dargone

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No more torturer for us!
« on: April 10, 2012, 12:50:00 pm »
+2

First, a quick hello to the forum members! I'm a long-time gamer, who recently discovered Dominion, and I have been playing it as much as possible the past week or so. My fiancee and I usually play co-operative games, so this is the first competitive card game we have played. Anyway, I'm loving the game and am also enjoying this site as a supplement.

Last night we played a game that contained Torturer (we added Intrigue a couple of days ago) and I decided to go for a Shanty Town-Torturer combo deck.  I started with a Chapel to trash my estates and coppers and then purchased a couple of Shanty Towns and Torturers. My fiancee bought a Moat and some Barons. Not sure exactly what she was going for? Long story short - after several turns of being hit by torturers she was getting irritated. Finally, after a double torturer chain and my third province purchased she stormed off to bed. I was told in no uncertain terms that if I ever play that way again, then I'll have to find someone else to play with  :(

The thing is, she usually wins and was actually way ahead of me on strategy when we first got the game (and probably still is to be honest). While I was buying a bunch of different cards she would quietly buy a few Villages and Smithies. Then she would start churning out big hands and buy all the Provinces. Did I storm off to bed during one of those thrashings?! No  ;D

The kid finally puts together a good game and now I'm in the doghouse!

I thought some people might enjoy this story and I wanted to introduce myself to the board. Thanks for reading!
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jsh357

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2012, 12:54:49 pm »
+2

Torturer is not conducive to a happy marriage, man.

The worst fight my wife and I ever had in Dominion was over a Thief.  She had figured out how to Chapel like a pro and built a deck with only Gold that was poised to earn Provinces in a hurry.  I grabbed a Thief and a Throne Room and managed to steal her entire economy. 

I thought I'd have to find a hotel for the night, seriously.

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DStu

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2012, 01:01:25 pm »
0

Welcome, and nice write-up!

In the case you haven't read it, Torturer is on the front page, where it's described that the history of the Torturerragequit seems to go back to before publishing of the game.

The choice is really the hard part of the Torturer. The attack is really the weakest of all Cursers. Even if you take the Curse, taking it to the hand is weaker than on the drawpile (Sea Hag) or in discard (everyone else I believe). And you got the choice to avoid it, but exactly this choice often let you harm yourself more than as if you would be forced to take the Curse.

But of course Torturer-chains are a nasty attack, and the game is very swingy with it, but nevertheless it's fun to have these games once in a while.

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Kuildeous

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2012, 01:44:16 pm »
0

You have to know your opponents' dispositions before engaging in attack cards. You could easily be painted as that one guy who is a jerk. I sometimes take that risk in my group of friends.

It's stories like this that remind me of why I'm lucky. My wife would be really pissed if I didn't go balls to the wall and try to crush her, because that's exactly what she's doing with me (ovaries to the wall, I guess). Although, there are still times when I know that the best route to take is to not take that tasty combo. If she's had a rough day, then she doesn't want to get Torturer-pinned. So I may experiment with something else.

It's a great combo, and the kindest thing you can do when you engage in it is to end that game as soon as possible. 
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Ozle

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2012, 02:02:28 pm »
+2

I have been threatened with phsyical violence over Minion by friends before...
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Kirian

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2012, 02:10:20 pm »
+7

Torturer is not conducive to a happy marriage, man.

Excluding a small minority, of course.
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Lekkit

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2012, 02:19:51 pm »
0

I've only once felt that my girlfriend was genuinly upset about me playing an attack. And that was a Ghost Ship that I pulled out from the Black Market and the played every turn for the rest of the game. She wasn't really mad at me, though, since she's a very competative player who almost always plays to win herself. She realised it was the best move to do and was upset that she got pinned down.

Besides that one time, I guess people have been upset in games with Saboteur. And Familiar. And then I have those weird friends who makes fun of everyone who doesn't buy the card that has "Attack" printed on it. Even if the attack happens to be a Fortune Teller or a Spy.
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AHoppy

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 02:39:51 pm »
0

I have been threatened with phsyical violence over Minion by friends before...

same... If we play veto mode IRL, if i'm playing they veto minions... it's really a shame... 

I remember the first time I played with torturer... I nearly rage quit since I was playing a 4 player game and didn't think taking the curses was good so getting hit by 3 torturers in a row, does not make for a fun first torturer game...

Dargone

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 01:37:11 pm »
0

Thanks for the responses! We played a bunch of games last night and I stayed away from the attack cards  ;D
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Gamer_2k4

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2012, 01:55:20 pm »
0

I would say that if you don't like attack cards, you shouldn't play Dominion.  Do people have strategies they like? Of course.  Should they stick to those strategies at the cost of winning games? Absolutely not.  I mean, come on, what did you THINK would happen if you build up gold while Thieves are in the supply?

I personally don't like attacks, but if that's the way the game is going, I have no problem fighting fire with fire.  If sticking to a losing strategy means losing AND getting enraged, why the heck would you keep doing it?
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jonts26

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2012, 02:07:58 pm »
+4

I would say that's a bit harsh. The purpose of playing a game is to gain enjoyment, not to win. Though winning is often quite enjoyable. And dominion without attacks can still be quite fun. My personal preference is that they usually add a lot of flavor, but that's all it is, preference. I think if you don't like attacks, just don't put them in the kingdom. Though if there are attacks in the kingdom, its probably best if you take them out before starting, otherwise getting mad at another player buying them is a bit silly.
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Asklepios

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2012, 07:23:26 am »
+3

Yeah, amazing game though it is, Dominion is just a game. Winning Dominion is way less important than having a happy fiancee.

Having been married a few years now I've learnt that there are certain games and play strategies I shouldn't play with my wife. Any game with multiplayer tabletalk is a bad idea, as she takes it badly if I manipulate a game to engineer an alliance against her while she is in the lead. Likewise, she knows that I like to play my games seriously, so she doesn't (any more) do things like "I'll trade sheep for stone with your brother because he hasn't won any games for a while". As far as I'm concerned, you play for your own victory in the current game, and to play kingmaker at cost of your own chances of winning is not good gamesmanship.

On the other hand, neither she nor I have problems with cut-throat attacks and game effects which potentially sap opponent fun (like IGG or Torturer).

So yeah, compromise is part of marriage. Compromises don't have to be even or fair either. Your fiancee is allowed to be a bad loser or to feel that she can play strategies that you can't. Is it fair, and is it something you'd put up with with a friend doing? Probably not, but serious relationships always have little sticking points, and its the whole thing you look at, not the little details.

Games are just games, and the goal is to have fun. Is a clash in gaming styles something which makes it worth an otherwise happy couple fighting about? Probably not!

Also, of course, I pick my gaming buddies because they game in the way I do, and thus we don't have to clash over different gaming philosophies. I picked my wife as my wife because I fell in love with her, and gaming didn't have much to do with that. I play games with her occasionally, but in a different way that I game with my gaming buddies.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 07:28:21 am by Asklepios »
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paddyodoors

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2012, 10:35:10 am »
0

^^^ this

And as an addendum, I have found that my wife is as competitive in-game as I am.  However, she often isn't as able to separate in-game conflict from the rest of her emotional self, and thus in-game rivalry can turn to outside-the-game conflict.

However... no matter what... without fail... whenever she learns a new game and wins the first sitting of it, all of the subsequent plays go much better, even if I am soundly defeating her.

This has taught me that, for at least that first game, I am willing to swallow my competitive pride and follow this principle:

"let the wookie wifey win!"
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Lrrr

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2012, 12:33:36 pm »
+1

Paddy, I confirm your findings - I just got a new game and despite my best efforts (I was not in any way throwing the game), I got slaughtered the first time I played with my wife. It was great for her to be the one asking for "just one more" for a change! I recall that her enjoyment of Dominion took a huge leap when we were learning the game, and I cautioned her that she might be buying Duchies too soon - and she then won by 3.

I think the only time I would "throw" a game or play intentionally suboptimally is when I've already played it before to get its quirks, and am introducing it to wife/friends. (When it's brand new to everyone playing, it tends to be a great experience!) But once everyone knows what torturer can do, I'll buy it with wild abandon, and expect to be tortured right back.
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shark_bait

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2012, 02:12:40 pm »
+1

"let the wookie wifey win!"

This just made my day!
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werothegreat

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2012, 01:19:34 pm »
+1

I love it when I have a Masquerade in hand when someone plays Torturer.  I get positively gleeful.
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Superdad

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2012, 10:03:15 am »
0

I was playing a game with my wife and my in-laws (we're all very close, and extremely competitive), and we had a chapel/village/torturer board. This was the first time they'd ever seen torturer, and I was the only one that bought them. By turn 7 I was double-torturing every single turn, and they all refused to take curses (they HATE cursers). We played for 2 more turns, until I started triple torturing every turn, and they realized that they would never get another turn again (they refuse to take the curse haha). My father-in-law was so upset that he threw his deck on the table while cursing profanities at great volume, and the deck literally exploded into a mushroom cloud of copper. Oh boy, we had a good laugh about it a week later (this weekend).

That card will never get seen again at my kitchen table, but that game was legendary and will go down in the history books, never to be forgotten.

The funny thing is, you have to know my father-in-law. He teases and laughs at everyone when he wins. We actually find it all hilarious. If he wins a game, he will actually stand up on the kitchen chair, and point and laugh at all of us, with this hilarious cackling laugh. It's priceless. So when he mushroom-clouded his dominion deck, we all literally couldn't breathe for 10 minutes, because we were in tears laughing so hard.

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Kuildeous

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2012, 10:42:13 am »
+1

we had a chapel/village/torturer board. This was the first time they'd ever seen torturer, and I was the only one that bought them. By turn 7 I was double-torturing every single turn, and they all refused to take curses (they HATE cursers).

What you ought to do is play that set again and promise that you won't take that combo.

Then when someone invariably takes it with the hope of pinning you, you demonstrate that taking a Curse is not always a bad thing and demonstrate that Chapel cleans more than just the early game.

Of course, that may not fly with expert players, but I imagine that you have more casual players if they don't see that taking and discarding two Curses is better than sitting with an empty hand.

The Torturer/Village might still win, but it wouldn't be quite the runaway that you had.
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Superdad

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2012, 11:15:41 am »
0

Indeed. I saw the board and thought... okay, they hate cursers, but torturer is optional - so there's that. Plus there's chapel to clean them out.

I kept telling them to take a curse, at least the first one, but they refuse. They HATE curses. I'm glad for it though.. the moment was priceless, and I'm sure we'll be talking about it at family dinners for a LONG time.
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paddyodoors

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2012, 11:32:45 am »
0

Indeed. I saw the board and thought... okay, they hate cursers, but torturer is optional - so there's that. Plus there's chapel to clean them out.

I kept telling them to take a curse, at least the first one, but they refuse. They HATE curses. I'm glad for it though.. the moment was priceless, and I'm sure we'll be talking about it at family dinners for a LONG time.

Okay... but what about those times they had chapels in hand?  Each player should be willing to take up to 4 curses on those turns.

Torturer chains turn Torturer into a Curse-giver (because discarding your whole hand every turn is suicide).  But it is the weakest Curse-giver in the game, especially with Chapel on the board.  If your opponents took Curses into hand when they had Chapels, eventually the curses run out and Torturer is just a Smithy.

I would recommend playing the set again and encouraging everyone to not be afraid of 1) going for the Torture-chain nor 2) taking a curse in hand AT LEAST when you have the means to immediately trash it.  Just a couple of suggestions, no worries if not.

If you (and/or your group) shy away from all but the most tame attacks, then Dominion just becomes multiplayer solitaire with the occasional interaction.  Not enjoyable for me, but YMMV.
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Dargone

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2012, 12:29:58 am »
0

I would say that if you don't like attack cards, you shouldn't play Dominion.  Do people have strategies they like? Of course.  Should they stick to those strategies at the cost of winning games? Absolutely not.  I mean, come on, what did you THINK would happen if you build up gold while Thieves are in the supply?

I personally don't like attacks, but if that's the way the game is going, I have no problem fighting fire with fire.  If sticking to a losing strategy means losing AND getting enraged, why the heck would you keep doing it?


I respectively disagree! There is a lot of depth to Dominion and 'attack cards' are simply one piece of the pie. The Torturer is also but one card out of 50 for us (we'll be adding Seaside this weekend and then it'll be one card out of 76). I can live with not using one card if that means I get to enjoy this great game with my best friend.

Just to be clear, it's really the Torturer that irritates her so far. I've used the Swindler, as one example, several times now and it doesn't bother her at all.

I think it's like a previous poster alluded to - people hate to take curses and then once you hit them with a couple of Torturers they get really irritated.

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Dargone

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2012, 12:35:03 am »
+1

^^^ this

And as an addendum, I have found that my wife is as competitive in-game as I am.  However, she often isn't as able to separate in-game conflict from the rest of her emotional self, and thus in-game rivalry can turn to outside-the-game conflict.

However... no matter what... without fail... whenever she learns a new game and wins the first sitting of it, all of the subsequent plays go much better, even if I am soundly defeating her.

This has taught me that, for at least that first game, I am willing to swallow my competitive pride and follow this principle:

"let the wookie wifey win!"

Yeah, sound advice for sure. She's competitive and likes to win (who doesn't) and I find that if I "ease up a bit" in the beginning of learning games, then she'll be more apt to enjoy them and play them with me.
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Miss Monster

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2012, 08:45:03 am »
+1

Makes me remember one time I played with my boyfriend and he played Ghost Ships for a few consecutive rounds. It just made me feel completely hopeless...then he said he won't do that again. ::)

But of course, I just won't show any negative feeling in front of friends or gaming buddies. Perhaps it's true that we'd only show that side to the closest ones in our lives.
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Asklepios

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2012, 04:35:38 am »
+1

Off topic, a little, but related:

Normally I don't mind being attacked. But this game really annoyed me:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120423-073204-2b118128.html

An excellent game till turn 30: my opponent had used Throne Room, Masquerade and Outpost to reduce my deck, and my FIVE TO NOTHING province to zero. Literally zero. I had no deck.

So I braced myself for the killing blow. Which never came.

--- Asklepios's turn 29 ---
Asklepios does nothing.
(Asklepios draws: nothing.)


Beaten fair and square, thinks I, it'd be unsporting to resign after all the hard work my opponent put in. Lets see him run this out.

   --- dnkywin's turn 29 ---
   dnkywin plays a Throne Room.
   ... and plays a Throne Room.
   ... ... and plays an Outpost.
   ... ... and plays the Outpost again.
   ... and plays the Throne Room again.
   ... ... and plays a Masquerade.
   ... ... ... drawing nothing.
   ... ... ... but has no card to trash.
   ... ... and plays the Masquerade again.
   ... ... ... drawing nothing.
   ... ... ... but has no card to trash.
   (dnkywin reshuffles.)
   (dnkywin draws: a Throne Room and a Masquerade.)
   

   --- dnkywin's extra turn (from Outpost) ---
   dnkywin had played the Outpost with a Throne Room.
   dnkywin does nothing.
   (dnkywin reshuffles.)
   (dnkywin draws: an Outpost, 2 Throne Rooms, and a Masquerade.)


--- Asklepios's turn 30 ---
Asklepios does nothing.
(Asklepios draws: nothing.)
   

   --- dnkywin's turn 30 ---
   dnkywin does nothing.
   (dnkywin reshuffles.)
   (dnkywin draws: an Outpost, 2 Throne Rooms, and a Masquerade.)


--- Asklepios's turn 31 ---
Asklepios does nothing.
(Asklepios draws: nothing.)
   

   --- dnkywin's turn 31 ---
   dnkywin does nothing.
   (dnkywin reshuffles.)
   (dnkywin draws: an Outpost, 2 Throne Rooms, and a Masquerade.)


What, am I meant to resign? Hell with that.

He tries to force the issue by taking several minutes on turns that involve three card decks.

Eventually, he times out first:

  --- dnkywin's turn 39 ---
   dnkywin resigns from the game (client disconnected or unresponsive).


So THAT game wound me up pretty badly. I'd just wasted half an hour playing a game against an opponent whose only strategy seemed to be "get the opponent to the point where they resign out of frustration".
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Dsell

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Re: No more torturer for us!
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2012, 04:47:02 am »
0

Asklepios, I feel your pain. That log is about as depressing as dominion gets. I completely don't understand the score graph though, what's going on there?
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