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Author Topic: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat  (Read 18634 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #175 on: January 28, 2023, 10:11:24 am »
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(In addition to Ways, Enchantress, and Reckless, I suppose Highwayman and the late lamented Coppersmith also do that.)

Highwayman, yes it's the same as Enchantress.

Coppersmith and Envious were ruled to be shapeshifters. Of course, that was when saying that a card does something meant that its instructions were changed. Donald X. might think differently about it now that this he's introduced this new concept.

dane-m

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #176 on: January 28, 2023, 01:30:16 pm »
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So does anyone have a suggestion for a short, not necessarily technical, description of what Ways, Enchantress and Reckless actually do - so that Harbor Village and Moat work as intended? (Of course without mentioning Harbor Village or Moat.)

Using "give" doesn't work, since Moat doesn't say that, but I guess something with "make you"?
I have to confess that I am now somewhat unclear on how things are supposed to work.  No doubt buried within this thread there is all the necessary information, but the occasional reference to changed rulings means I'm far from convinced that I could identify the information even if I could winnow it out from the lengthy debates about what exactly various words ought to mean.  I had therefore been intending to ask to what extent, if any, the approach described below gives the right results.  If miraculously it gives all the right results, consider it an answer (though one that almost certainly be improved) to your request.  If as is more likely it doesn't, ignore it, though it would be helpful to my grasp of the various rulings if you'd point out which ones it gets wrong.  I'm particularly worried about the interaction between Reckless and Enchantress.

Playing a card consists of following a set of instructions.  Usually there is only one possible set of instructions, but sometimes there is more than one, in which case the player can choose which to follow.

One option is the instructions written on the card.  This option is not available if the card has the Reckless trait or one is subject to an Enchantress attack.

A second option is the instructions on a Way (or in the case of Way of Chameleon, the instructions on the card after rewriting as directed).  This is only available if there is a Way in the game.

A third option is +1 card, +1 action.  This is only available if one is subject to an Enchantress attack.

A fourth option is the instructions written on the card followed by the instructions written on the card.  This is only available if the card has the Reckless trait.  (Does this also require "and one is not subject to an Enchantress attack"?)
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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #177 on: January 28, 2023, 01:42:43 pm »
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So does anyone have a suggestion for a short, not necessarily technical, description of what Ways, Enchantress and Reckless actually do - so that Harbor Village and Moat work as intended? (Of course without mentioning Harbor Village or Moat.)

Using "give" doesn't work, since Moat doesn't say that, but I guess something with "make you"?
I have to confess that I am now somewhat unclear on how things are supposed to work.  No doubt buried within this thread there is all the necessary information, but the occasional reference to changed rulings means I'm far from convinced that I could identify the information even if I could winnow it out from the lengthy debates about what exactly various words ought to mean.  I had therefore been intending to ask to what extent, if any, the approach described below gives the right results.  If miraculously it gives all the right results, consider it an answer (though one that almost certainly be improved) to your request.  If as is more likely it doesn't, ignore it, though it would be helpful to my grasp of the various rulings if you'd point out which ones it gets wrong.  I'm particularly worried about the interaction between Reckless and Enchantress.

Playing a card consists of following a set of instructions.  Usually there is only one possible set of instructions, but sometimes there is more than one, in which case the player can choose which to follow.

One option is the instructions written on the card.  This option is not available if the card has the Reckless trait or one is subject to an Enchantress attack.

A second option is the instructions on a Way (or in the case of Way of Chameleon, the instructions on the card after rewriting as directed).  This is only available if there is a Way in the game.

A third option is +1 card, +1 action.  This is only available if one is subject to an Enchantress attack.

A fourth option is the instructions written on the card followed by the instructions written on the card.  This is only available if the card has the Reckless trait.  (Does this also require "and one is not subject to an Enchantress attack"?)

The problem is that saying that all those things are the card's instructions means that Ways/Ench/Highw/Reckless will work on a card to which Ways/Ench/Highw has already been applied. In short, applying Enchantress and then Chameleon will produce +$1 and +1 Action, applying Chameleon and then Enchantress will produce +1 Card and +1 Action, applying Enchantress and then Reckless will produce +1 Card and +1 Action twice, applying Sheep and then Reckless will produce +$2 twice. None of that is according to current rulings. But your explanation is pretty much what I've been advocating.

I'll try to write a summary of the rulings one of the upcoming days.

(Reckless does not substitute the instructions like the others, it horns in after you have followed them once and makes you do it an extra time.)

Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #178 on: January 28, 2023, 02:50:50 pm »
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I was talking about me as a player, not as a rules-document manintainer (if I shared your thinking I could just delete all the stuff about old versions in the document). I'm not going to explain before we start a game that Trader allows when-gain stuff to happen and Haggler triggers on when-gain, unlike what the cards say. And I expect other people to do that even less (out of those people who know about the changes). I don't imagine that most people that look up their card is fine with playing with a different card text that works differently. And I don't imagine that IRL tournaments include all the changed card texts unless the organizers actually bought all the new sets (and tournaments need rulings).
This is just another case where we fail to communicate? You, and people reading this thread, are trying to figure out weird cases. Normal people are not! They are not. They aren't. They don't. It's not a thing.

When a weird situation comes up, they don't necessarily even think to ask. They think they know what happens and they do that.

I get that you don't want to engage with this anymore. I actually thought you wouldn't even respond to that post; and in the end you didn't actually respond to its arguments.
You could try sticking to the thing you care the most about, and saying it tersely, and seeing how it goes.

I'll try to write up a summary like dane-m's later.
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scolapasta

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #179 on: January 28, 2023, 04:48:46 pm »
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So does anyone have a suggestion for a short, not necessarily technical, description of what Ways, Enchantress and Reckless actually do - so that Harbor Village and Moat work as intended? (Of course without mentioning Harbor Village or Moat.)

Using "give" doesn't work, since Moat doesn't say that, but I guess something with "make you"?
I have to confess that I am now somewhat unclear on how things are supposed to work.  No doubt buried within this thread there is all the necessary information, but the occasional reference to changed rulings means I'm far from convinced that I could identify the information even if I could winnow it out from the lengthy debates about what exactly various words ought to mean.  I had therefore been intending to ask to what extent, if any, the approach described below gives the right results.  If miraculously it gives all the right results, consider it an answer (though one that almost certainly be improved) to your request.  If as is more likely it doesn't, ignore it, though it would be helpful to my grasp of the various rulings if you'd point out which ones it gets wrong.  I'm particularly worried about the interaction between Reckless and Enchantress.

Playing a card consists of following a set of instructions.  Usually there is only one possible set of instructions, but sometimes there is more than one, in which case the player can choose which to follow.

One option is the instructions written on the card.  This option is not available if the card has the Reckless trait or one is subject to an Enchantress attack.

A second option is the instructions on a Way (or in the case of Way of Chameleon, the instructions on the card after rewriting as directed).  This is only available if there is a Way in the game.

A third option is +1 card, +1 action.  This is only available if one is subject to an Enchantress attack.

A fourth option is the instructions written on the card followed by the instructions written on the card.  This is only available if the card has the Reckless trait.  (Does this also require "and one is not subject to an Enchantress attack"?)

The problem is that saying that all those things are the card's instructions means that Ways/Ench/Highw/Reckless will work on a card to which Ways/Ench/Highw has already been applied. In short, applying Enchantress and then Chameleon will produce +$1 and +1 Action, applying Chameleon and then Enchantress will produce +1 Card and +1 Action, applying Enchantress and then Reckless will produce +1 Card and +1 Action twice, applying Sheep and then Reckless will produce +$2 twice. None of that is according to current rulings. But your explanation is pretty much what I've been advocating.

I'll try to write a summary of the rulings one of the upcoming days.

(Reckless does not substitute the instructions like the others, it horns in after you have followed them once and makes you do it an extra time.)

Thanks @dane-m for your post, I was thinking of doing something similar - and with a similar caveat of not being sure if it agreed with all the rulings as they've happened.

The one thing I'd add (and why I replied to @jeebus's post) is that when something refers to a card's instructions it's specifically refers to the first option, that is the instructions written on the card. The others are others instructions that are followed when playing the card, and whose effects are attributed to playing the card, but not the card's instructions themselves.

I think this last part is where jeebus has been getting stuck on (correct me if I'm wrong) but to me it makes sense. (and as I suggested earlier I think follows naturally from how the Ways refer to "this" meaning the played card, and not the Way itself)
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AJD

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #180 on: January 28, 2023, 05:15:55 pm »
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So does anyone have a suggestion for a short, not necessarily technical, description of what Ways, Enchantress and Reckless actually do - so that Harbor Village and Moat work as intended? (Of course without mentioning Harbor Village or Moat.)

Using "give" doesn't work, since Moat doesn't say that, but I guess something with "make you"?

How about, they change what a card's effect is?

(In addition to Ways, Enchantress, and Reckless, I suppose Highwayman and the late lamented Coppersmith also do that.)

(Also, I suppose, things like making a choice when you play Steward changes what its effect is. Sometimes the effect of Steward is +2 cards, sometimes it's +$2, sometimes it's trashing, even though Steward's instructions never change.)
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dane-m

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #181 on: January 29, 2023, 03:06:26 am »
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So does anyone have a suggestion for a short, not necessarily technical, description of what Ways, Enchantress and Reckless actually do - so that Harbor Village and Moat work as intended? (Of course without mentioning Harbor Village or Moat.)
Playing a card consists of following a set of instructions.  Usually there is only one possible set of instructions, but sometimes there is more than one, in which case the player can choose which to follow.

The problem is that saying that all those things are the card's instructions means that Ways/Ench/Highw/Reckless will work on a card to which Ways/Ench/Highw has already been applied.
But my description doesn't say that they are the card's instructions.  It says that playing a card consists of following a set of instructions, one of the possible sets being the card's instructions.  scolapasta has correctly understood the distinction between "the card's instructions" and "the instructions followed when playing a card", whereas you persist in treating the two concepts as being identical.

There is one further word that needs adding to my description to eliminate a potential misunderstanding.  The first paragraph should read "Playing a card consists of following a set of instructions.  Usually there is only one possible set of instructions, but sometimes there is more than one, in which case the player can choose which one to follow."

My model for attempting to understand what's happening needs expanding to cover Highwayman.

The first option needs to be changed to "One option is the instructions written on the card.  This option is not available if (a) the card is a Treasure and one is subject to a Highwayman attack or (b) the card has the Reckless trait or (c) one is subject to an Enchantress attack."

Then a fifth option needs to be added; "A fifth option is a null set of instructions.  This is only available if one is subject to a Highwayman attack."

(Reckless does not substitute the instructions like the others, it horns in after you have followed them once and makes you do it an extra time.)
It seems to me that "Follow the instructions of played Reckless cards twice" can be considered as having the effect of creating a set of instructions that consists of the instructions on the card followed by the instructions on the card.  My only concern about considering it that way is whether it produces the correct result in terms of the rulings (in other words I'm trying to come up with an answer to your question of what does Reckless actually do, though see below).  If I've correctly understood the interaction of Ways and Reckless (the instructions on the Way only get followed once?), then it does at least get that right, but I'm unclear on what's supposed to happen with its interaction with Enchantress.

To answer your question "So does anyone have a suggestion for a short, not necessarily technical, description of what Ways, Enchantress and Reckless actually do?" literally I would have constructed my description something like:

A Way adds its instructions to the sets of instructions that can be chosen from when playing an Action card.

Enchantress adds "+1 card +1 action" to the sets of instructions that can be chosen from when playing an Action card and removes the card's instructions from the sets.

Reckless adds the card's instructions followed by the card's instructions to the sets of instructions that can be chosen from when playing an Action card and removes the card's instructions from the sets.

But although that's how I'd like to mentally picture it working if it gives the right rulings, it struck me as being less intelligible than the way I chose to describe my mental model.
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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #182 on: January 29, 2023, 08:10:05 am »
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So does anyone have a suggestion for a short, not necessarily technical, description of what Ways, Enchantress and Reckless actually do - so that Harbor Village and Moat work as intended? (Of course without mentioning Harbor Village or Moat.)
Playing a card consists of following a set of instructions.  Usually there is only one possible set of instructions, but sometimes there is more than one, in which case the player can choose which to follow.

The problem is that saying that all those things are the card's instructions means that Ways/Ench/Highw/Reckless will work on a card to which Ways/Ench/Highw has already been applied.
But my description doesn't say that they are the card's instructions.  It says that playing a card consists of following a set of instructions, one of the possible sets being the card's instructions

I'm sorry, I misread your post to say that the card consists of several sets of instructions.

Quote
scolapasta has correctly understood the distinction between "the card's instructions" and "the instructions followed when playing a card", whereas you persist in treating the two concepts as being identical.

I have never treated them as identical, quite the opposite. I have said that "the instructions followed when playing a card" also includes tokens, League of Shopkeepers, etc., while "the card's instructions" don't.

More later.

dane-m

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #183 on: January 29, 2023, 11:38:35 am »
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A fourth option is the instructions written on the card followed by the instructions written on the card.  This is only available if the card has the Reckless trait.  (Does this also require "and one is not subject to an Enchantress attack"?)
I've now read the Wiki about Reckless, so I know that it would require "and one is subject to neither an Enchantress attack or a Highwayman attack."  It's also occurred to me that my phrasing is careless since what matters is whether the card, not the player, is subject to the attack, so let's try the following instead:

Playing a card consists of following one of the available sets of instructions from the following list:
  • [Available only if the card is subject to an Enchantress attack] +1 Card and +1 Action.
  • [Available only if the card is subject to a Highwayman attack] nothing.
  • [Available only if the card has the Reckless trait and neither of the first two options are available] The instructions written on the card followed by the instructions written on the card.
  • [Available only if none of the first three options are available] The instructions written on the card.
  • [Available when Way of the Chameleon is in the game] The instructions on the card as modified by Way of the Chameleon
  • [Available when any other Way is in the game] The instructions written on the Way.
That's a rather more verbose way of listing the options than I would have liked, but I think the above now gets the details of what can and can't be done right (except that it doesn't cover Envious, and if one has bought Inheritance, it doesn't properly cover Estates, given that the instructions aren't on the Estates themselves).  I'm vaguely hopeful that it also leads to the right results as far as Harbor Village and Moat are concerned, but I might well have overlooked something.
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scolapasta

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #184 on: January 29, 2023, 12:30:47 pm »
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I think dane-m's "instructions on following instructions" are looking good. And it only get complicated because the first 3 are conditional on a specific card being in the kingdom. And that makes sense, since you're specifying a specific instruction defined by the specific card. I could imagine trying to phrase it more generically as:

[Available only if the card is subject to an an effect that tells you to not follow its instruction] the specified effect.

But since we're trying to understand how all the interactions work together, it is nice to see spelled out.

It does lead me to a specific question on Highwayman, however:

Is the official ruling for Highwayman that you can play a Way (on an action-Treasure) in order to avoid its attack?

I ask because it's wording doesn't specify "the card's instructions". It just says:
Quote
Until then, the first Treasure each other player plays each turn does nothing

For me, the naturally interpretation would be that you wouldn't be able to choose any set of instructions (not even Enchantress), because that would be doing something.
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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #185 on: January 29, 2023, 02:23:09 pm »
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(Reckless does not substitute the instructions like the others, it horns in after you have followed them once and makes you do it an extra time.)
It seems to me that "Follow the instructions of played Reckless cards twice" can be considered as having the effect of creating a set of instructions that consists of the instructions on the card followed by the instructions on the card. 

But that's not how Donald X. ruled that it works. You can find it in the thread called "Reckless" possibly, or just search for it. It's the way I said.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #186 on: January 29, 2023, 02:31:04 pm »
+1

A fourth option is the instructions written on the card followed by the instructions written on the card.  This is only available if the card has the Reckless trait.  (Does this also require "and one is not subject to an Enchantress attack"?)
I've now read the Wiki about Reckless, so I know that it would require "and one is subject to neither an Enchantress attack or a Highwayman attack."  It's also occurred to me that my phrasing is careless since what matters is whether the card, not the player, is subject to the attack, so let's try the following instead:

Playing a card consists of following one of the available sets of instructions from the following list:
  • [Available only if the card is subject to an Enchantress attack] +1 Card and +1 Action.
  • [Available only if the card is subject to a Highwayman attack] nothing.
  • [Available only if the card has the Reckless trait and neither of the first two options are available] The instructions written on the card followed by the instructions written on the card.
  • [Available only if none of the first three options are available] The instructions written on the card.
  • [Available when Way of the Chameleon is in the game] The instructions on the card as modified by Way of the Chameleon
  • [Available when any other Way is in the game] The instructions written on the Way.
That's a rather more verbose way of listing the options than I would have liked, but I think the above now gets the details of what can and can't be done right (except that it doesn't cover Envious, and if one has bought Inheritance, it doesn't properly cover Estates, given that the instructions aren't on the Estates themselves).  I'm vaguely hopeful that it also leads to the right results as far as Harbor Village and Moat are concerned, but I might well have overlooked something.

Inheritance makes the instructions the Estate's instructions, it's a shapeshifter. Same with Envious.

I think your explanation works (except the mistake with Reckless). But it requires that all that is in the general game rules, and of course it's not in the game rules. I was thinking about a way to actually describe what Ways and Enchantress do without having to change the rules of the game.

Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #187 on: January 29, 2023, 02:47:51 pm »
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I was talking about me as a player, not as a rules-document manintainer (if I shared your thinking I could just delete all the stuff about old versions in the document). I'm not going to explain before we start a game that Trader allows when-gain stuff to happen and Haggler triggers on when-gain, unlike what the cards say. And I expect other people to do that even less (out of those people who know about the changes). I don't imagine that most people that look up their card is fine with playing with a different card text that works differently. And I don't imagine that IRL tournaments include all the changed card texts unless the organizers actually bought all the new sets (and tournaments need rulings).
This is just another case where we fail to communicate? You, and people reading this thread, are trying to figure out weird cases. Normal people are not! They are not. They aren't. They don't. It's not a thing.

When a weird situation comes up, they don't necessarily even think to ask. They think they know what happens and they do that.

Yeah, it seems we're not talking about the same thing anymore.
But it sounds like you're saying that "normal" players are not looking up explanations online? (For certain definitions of "normal", I would agree.) Or are you saying that there is something especially weird about these interactions as opposed to other two-card interactions?

Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #188 on: January 29, 2023, 03:37:39 pm »
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You could try sticking to the thing you care the most about, and saying it tersely, and seeing how it goes.

The essence of my issue is this:

A card gives you +$ must mean that the card makes you get +$. For instance, with Way of the Goat, the played card makes you trash - according to this ruling.

1. The card makes you trash.
2. The card tells you to trash.
3. The card instructs you to trash.
4. The card orders you to trash.
5. The card's instructions are to trash.
6. The card's orders are to trash.

To me these are synonymous. But according to the ruling, they are not. (This is not about terminology, but about concept. We can add more verbs and nouns.) Where do we draw the line? Between the verbs and nouns? Wherever we draw the line seems arbitrary to me.

(As a separate matter, I don't see that the Way rules say anything about the played card "giving" you or "making" you do anything [explained in more detail before, I'm just mentioning it here for completeness], and Enchantress doesn't say it [yes in the rulebook notes, but so do the rulebook notes about Merchant, Ironworks and Ironmonger].)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 03:12:57 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #189 on: January 29, 2023, 04:46:43 pm »
+1

Jeebus, can you unpack how your interpretation works in the case of a simple card like Steward? If I play one Steward and choose +2 coins, and another Steward and choose to trash 2 cards, it seems clear to me that the two Stewards made me do different things (your sentence #1 is true of the second one but not the first one), but that they have the same instructions. Do you disagree with that? Based on your statement, it seems like you must—if "what the card makes you do" is synonymous with "the card’s instructions", then two cards with the same instructions can’t make you do different things. So… would you say that Steward #2 didn’t make me trash? That the two copies of Steward have different instructions as a result of my choice? What’s your analysis of this situation?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2023, 07:07:07 pm by AJD »
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dane-m

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #190 on: January 29, 2023, 06:18:25 pm »
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I think your explanation works (except the mistake with Reckless). But it requires that all that is in the general game rules, and of course it's not in the game rules. I was thinking about a way to actually describe what Ways and Enchantress do without having to change the rules of the game.
To some extent I was merely trying to come up with an explanation that was not contrary to the rules.  At one time we all knew (and I'm sure the original rulebook said) that playing a card meant following the instructions on the card.  As time has progressed things like Enchantress and Ways have come along that have changed that, but the rules have tended to specify the outcome, not the mechanism by which the outcome is reached.  For example I don't think (and I'll admit that I could well be wrong) that the mechanism by which Enchantress and Highwayman interact to give the result they do was ever spelled out in the rules, though the concept of being able to choose the order in which multiple 'simultaneous' effects are applied was well established, so was a natural way to envisage the mechanism.  Donald X's explanation of how Ways work has introduced (or brought to our attention, depending on how you look at it) the concept of there potentially being a choice of sets of instructions to follow when a card is played.  My explanation pushes that concept to the limit (and arguably beyond).

Edit: I've given some more thought to this overnight and now disagree with some of the above, but I don't currently have time to explain what and why.  I'll be back later.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 01:50:54 am by dane-m »
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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #191 on: January 30, 2023, 03:16:48 am »
0

Jeebus, can you unpack how your interpretation works in the case of a simple card like Steward? If I play one Steward and choose +2 coins, and another Steward and choose to trash 2 cards, it seems clear to me that the two Stewards made me do different things (your sentence #1 is true of the second one but not the first one), but that they have the same instructions. Do you disagree with that? Based on your statement, it seems like you must—if "what the card makes you do" is synonymous with "the card’s instructions", then two cards with the same instructions can’t make you do different things. So… would you say that Steward #2 didn’t make me trash? That the two copies of Steward have different instructions as a result of my choice? What’s your analysis of this situation?

I was referring to how Ways work, and they make you do a whole set of other instructions. So I used "instructions" and "orders" (plural). Steward's instructions are that you choose between drawing, getting $ and trashing, and then do one of those things. And that's exactly what Steward makes you do. (This could be Steward with Chameleon, or a Way that has variable outcome like Way of the Rat.)

But yes, you can look at it as individual instructions, and not all of those are followed. So what I'm talking about are the instructions you're following:
If you're following a card's instruction to trash, it means that it instructs you to trash. (or any other words you want to use)
And vice versa, if the card instructs you to trash, it means that you're following its instruction to trash / its instruction to you is to trash. (or any other words you want to use)

You could add something like "now" in front of every sentence to make it clear that all of them are about something happening in the game:
1. Now, the card makes you trash.
2. Now, the card tells you to trash.
3. Now, the card instructs you to trash.
4. Now, the card orders you to trash.
5. Now, the card's instruction is to trash.
6. Now, the card's order is to trash.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 07:09:56 am by Jeebus »
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dane-m

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #192 on: January 30, 2023, 06:07:31 am »
+1

For example I don't think (and I'll admit that I could well be wrong) that the mechanism by which Enchantress and Highwayman interact to give the result they do was ever spelled out in the rules, though the concept of being able to choose the order in which multiple 'simultaneous' effects are applied was well established, so was a natural way to envisage the mechanism.  Donald X's explanation of how Ways work has introduced (or brought to our attention, depending on how you look at it) the concept of there potentially being a choice of sets of instructions to follow when a card is played.  My explanation pushes that concept to the limit (and arguably beyond).
My further thought overnight was that the concept of choosing the order of effects was in fact still valid for Enchantress and Highwayman.  What needed revising was our interpretation of the mechanism by which Enchantress and Highwayman achieve what the rules say they do.  For the moment I'll ignore Reckless and try to come up with a fairly simple formulation that would give the right result (including the consequences for Harbor Village and Moat) for Ways, Enchantress and Highwayman.

When a card is played, the player may choose to follow either the instructions on the card or, in the case of Action cards, the instructions on the Way if there is one (the instructions implied by the Way in the case of Way of the Chameleon), but some effects, e.g. an Enchantress or Highwayman attack, cause alternative instructions to be followed instead of the ones on the card.

That leaves Reckless to be sorted out, and Jeebus will also want the explanation to cover why the +$1 from an Adventures token shouldn't count as far as Harbor Village is concerned.  I'll tackle the latter first.  We need to interpret "if it gave you" as meaning "if the instructions that were followed by playing it gave you" and we need "the instructions that were followed by playing it" not to include the "+$1" from the Adventures token.  To achieve the latter I'm going to point out that 'playing a card' tends to be used with slightly different meanings in various contexts (if it weren't, the rules would probably be a lot less readable).  The base rules say:

Playing an Action card has three steps: announcing it; moving it to the "in play" area - the table space in front of you; and following the instructions on it, in order, top to bottom.

We've already seen that the third step, the instructions to follow, becomes more complicated once various expansions stick their oar in.  Now consider what Moat says:

When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal a Moat from your hand, before the Attack does anything

so in that context "When another player plays an Attack card" evidently means "When another player announces playing an Attack card", i.e. it's referring specifically to the first of the three steps.

The rules for Adventures tokens say:

When the player whose token it is plays a card from that pile, that player first gets the bonus.

If we interpret this occurrence of 'plays a card' as also meaning 'announces playing a card' (an interpretation that seems eminently reasonable given the 'first') then the +$1 is not coming from the third step, the instructions followed.

Now for Reckless.  I think it's fairly straightforward.  The rules say:

When you play a Reckless card, you follow its instructions an extra time - follow them entirely, then follow them again - and when you discard one from play, you return it to its Supply pile.  With Duration cards those may not happen on the same turn. If you skip following the instructions of the card - for example by using a Way (from Menagerie) instead - then you don't follow them an extra time, but still return the card when discarding it from play.

"Its instructions" means "The instructions written on the card", so whenever a player uses a Way or the card is affected by Enchantress or Highwayman, following the instructions of the card has been skipped, so nothing happens a second time, in which case my formulation above that ignored Reckless is valid as it stands.
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Jeebus

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #193 on: January 30, 2023, 07:07:13 am »
0

Yes, your formulation seems to be correct for Reckless when Way/Ench/Highw have already been applied. (You can't include Reckless in the list of the sets of instructions that can be followed, because that would mean we could apply Reckless first and have Way/Ench/Highw fail to do anything.)

Yes, Moat and Adventures tokens trigger after announcing the card, before starting to resolve its on-play instructions. League of Shopkeepers triggers afterwards. But my objection was not related to the timing. Priest triggers while you're in the middle of following the on-play instructions. All of the mentioned things provide instructions that you follow when playing the card, at various times. Ways/Ench/Highw are basically no different. Like Snowy Village or Trader 1E they happen to cancel something that you were supposed to do, and then they make you do something else, but triggering at a certain time and making you do something is what all these things do. In order for Ways/Ench/Highw to be different, we need to specifically say so, for instance by introducing the concept of imbuing the played card with the ability to "make you" do something outside of its instructions.

Your "game rule" about what it means to play a card (different sets of instructions) works as long as Harbor Village, Moat etc. are understood to refer specifically to the instructions the "game rule" tells you to follow, and not other instructions you follow when playing a card, and of course not (only) the card's instructions. We need that "game rule" though.

I was kind of giving up trying to formulate this based on which instructions are being followed. I had in mind the card "making you" do stuff - by following some other instructions of course - but the definition being that Ways/Ench/Highw are imbued with this transferal power. To me it's weird, but it seems to be the only way to understand this ruling. So for Enchantress it would be: "the first time each other player plays an Action card on their turn, it makes them get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions." (using "it gives them" instead of "it makes them get" makes the last part of the sentence wrong and difficult to get right.)

dane-m

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #194 on: January 30, 2023, 11:50:27 am »
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Priest triggers while you're in the middle of following the on-play instructions.
I was thinking in terms of distinguishing between what is given by the instructions followed (which Harbor Village cares about) and what is given by any effects triggered by the instructions followed (which Harbor Village ignores).  That would give the right result for any card that triggers the effect set up by Priest.  I hope it would also give the right result in other instances, but are there are situations in which it is unclear whether something is being given by the instructions or by an effect triggered by the instructions?
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Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #195 on: January 31, 2023, 08:30:18 pm »
0

The essence of my issue is this:

A card gives you +$ must mean that the card makes you get +$. For instance, with Way of the Goat, the played card makes you trash - according to this ruling.

1. The card makes you trash.
2. The card tells you to trash.
3. The card instructs you to trash.
4. The card orders you to trash.
5. The card's instructions are to trash.
6. The card's orders are to trash.

To me these are synonymous. But according to the ruling, they are not. (This is not about terminology, but about concept. We can add more verbs and nouns.) Where do we draw the line? Between the verbs and nouns? Wherever we draw the line seems arbitrary to me.
I don't understand the list of 6 things or how it relates to anything.

Harbor Village cares about:
- did you actually get +$1 or more - it won't proc if e.g. you played Peddler but had a -$1 token.
- is the source of the +$1, that play of the card.

And then Way of the Sheep worms in there and says, "this +$2 is due to the play of the card," even though you might think "how could it possibly be."

(As a separate matter, I don't see that the Way rules say anything about the played card "giving" you or "making" you do anything [explained in more detail before, I'm just mentioning it here for completeness], and Enchantress doesn't say it [yes in the rulebook notes, but so do the rulebook notes about Merchant, Ironworks and Ironmonger].)
Yes, the rulebook using easy-to-read language for Merchant etc. (I haven't checked but will guess that you're right there) doesn't mean the rules work differently due to that easy-to-read language.

But, Way of the Sheep attributing the +$2 to the card-play still feels like the right call to me.
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Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #196 on: January 31, 2023, 08:38:08 pm »
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Playing an Action card has three steps: announcing it; moving it to the "in play" area - the table space in front of you; and following the instructions on it, in order, top to bottom.
Let's expand this.

Playing a card:
1. Announce it.
2. Move it to the "in play" area.
3. "When you play a card, first..." abilities trigger here.
4. Follow the instructions on the card (in order, top to bottom, stop at a dividing line).
5. "When you play a card" abilities trigger here.

My memory is that some card somewhere blows it and looks like "When x" when really it happens at some other time and was trying to be more friendly-English but in a poor way since man we rely on these particular words. Probably someone else will remember what that card is. Anyway you know, this list ignores that card, which means something else okay.
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Donald X.

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #197 on: January 31, 2023, 09:22:00 pm »
+4

In the Follow the Instructions (FTI) step:

- Normally you FTI.
- if you have Reckless, you FTI twice.
- If you have Enchantress, you cantrip instead. There's no FTI.
- If Highwayman hits it, you do nothing instead. There's no FTI.
- If you use Way of the Sheep, you get +$2 instead of the FTI. +$2 becomes what the card did.
- If you use Chameleon, you FTI flipping cards/$. And this is what the card did.

What does Harbor Village look at?

- Normally you FTI. Harbor Village sees this.
- if you have Reckless, you FTI twice. Harbor Village sees both.
- If you have Enchantress, you cantrip instead. Harbor Village is blind.
- If Highwayman hits it, you do nothing instead. Harbor Village is blind.
- If you use Way of the Sheep, you get +$2 instead of the FTI. Harbor Village magically sees this +$2.
- If you use Chameleon, you FTI flipping cards/$. Harbor Village sees the result.

Pairs!

- Reckless + Enchantress
-- You just get one cantrip.
- Reckless + Highwayman
-- You just get one nothing.
- Reckless + Way of the Sheep
-- You only get +$2.
- Reckless + Way of the Chameleon
-- This could go either way, but I have ruled that it works, you get the flipped effect twice. (a reversal)
- Enchantress + Highwayman
-- Your choice!
- Enchantress + Way of the Sheep
-- Your choice!
- Enchantress + Way of the Chameleon
-- Used to be your choice; tentatively switching to, Enchantress wins.
- Highwayman + Way of the Sheep
-- Your choice!
- Highwayman + Way of the Chameleon
-- Used to be your choice; as with Enchantress, now, Highwayman wins.
- Way of the Sheep + Way of the Chameleon
-- Not recommended! But supported. Your choice!

Wait the thread title mentions Lantern and Elder. Do those rulings stand?

- Lantern / Chameleon'd Border Guard: Lantern applies.
- Lantern / Reckless Border Guard: Lantern applies both times.
- Elder / Chameleon'd Minion: Elder applies.
- Elder / Reckless Minion: Elder applies.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 11:57:17 pm by Donald X. »
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scolapasta

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #198 on: January 31, 2023, 09:32:19 pm »
+2

- Enchantress + Highwayman
-- Your choice!
...
- Highwayman + Way of the Sheep
-- Your choice!
- Highwayman + Way of the Chameleon
-- Your choice!

Can I ask why you get a choice in these cases? I'm not sure if you saw when i had first asked about this ruling, but:

It does lead me to a specific question on Highwayman, however:

Is the official ruling for Highwayman that you can play a Way (on an action-Treasure) in order to avoid its attack?

I ask because it's wording doesn't specify "the card's instructions". It just says:
Quote
Until then, the first Treasure each other player plays each turn does nothing

For me, the naturally interpretation would be that you wouldn't be able to choose any set of instructions (not even Enchantress), because that would be doing something.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #199 on: February 01, 2023, 12:34:48 am »
0

- Enchantress + Highwayman
-- Your choice!
...
- Highwayman + Way of the Sheep
-- Your choice!
- Highwayman + Way of the Chameleon
-- Your choice!

Can I ask why you get a choice in these cases? I'm not sure if you saw when i had first asked about this ruling, but:

It does lead me to a specific question on Highwayman, however:

Is the official ruling for Highwayman that you can play a Way (on an action-Treasure) in order to avoid its attack?

I ask because it's wording doesn't specify "the card's instructions". It just says:
Quote
Until then, the first Treasure each other player plays each turn does nothing

For me, the naturally interpretation would be that you wouldn't be able to choose any set of instructions (not even Enchantress), because that would be doing something.

I would take it even further and think that it naturally reads that it also doesn't trigger any adventures tokens or other "when you play" things.
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