Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12  All

Author Topic: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat  (Read 18665 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« on: December 29, 2022, 06:41:39 am »
+3



Hoping that Donald can reply to this.

With Enchantress, Highwayman and Ways, and the second iteration from Reckless, you're not following the on-play instructions of the played card.

Donald has ruled that Lantern and Elder care about the on-play instructions of the played card: If you don't follow those instructions, Lantern and Elder do nothing.

According to the Plunder rulebook, Harbor Village is different somehow. It works even when you don't follow the on-play instructions of the played card. If you followed some other instructions instead of the card's on-play instructions, Harbor Village cares about those instructions.

There has been no ruling on Moat (and Lighthouse, Champion, Guardian). I assume that the general assumption has been that it's like Harbor Village.

What is the difference between Lantern and Elder, and Harbor Village and Moat? None of them refer to the played card's instructions. They all refer to the played card doing something or having some effect. It absolutely seems to me like they should all work the same.

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2022, 01:23:48 pm »
0

Hoping that Donald can reply to this.
I'll do what I can, Jeebu.

With Enchantress, Highwayman and Ways, and the second iteration from Reckless, you're not following the on-play instructions of the played card.

Donald has ruled that Lantern and Elder care about the on-play instructions of the played card: If you don't follow those instructions, Lantern and Elder do nothing.

According to the Plunder rulebook, Harbor Village is different somehow. It works even when you don't follow the on-play instructions of the played card. If you followed some other instructions instead of the card's on-play instructions, Harbor Village cares about those instructions.
The rules for Ways say: "Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do."

So when you play a card and use Way of the Sheep to get +$2, you "played the card" to get +$2. "...Play it to do what the Way says..."

Harbor Village asks if playing the Action gave you +$, and if you used Way of the Sheep, it did. That is the logic there.

There has been no ruling on Moat (and Lighthouse, Champion, Guardian). I assume that the general assumption has been that it's like Harbor Village.
I am not clear as to what the question is here. Moat happens before you decide to use a Way or not.

What is the difference between Lantern and Elder, and Harbor Village and Moat? None of them refer to the played card's instructions. They all refer to the played card doing something or having some effect. It absolutely seems to me like they should all work the same.
Elder should work the same as Harbor Village. If a Way said "choose one," Elder would give you an extra choice.

Lantern is a kludgy bit of nonsense, but its instructions make no sense if you aren't doing Border Guard's text, so it only applies when you are. It's specifically talking about the text on Border Guard.

I don't imagine that's done the trick, but that's this round of answers. It is not always clear what the question is.
Logged

dz

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 209
  • Shuffle iT Username: DZ
  • Respect: +342
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2022, 03:07:50 pm »
+1

I think the Moat question Jeebus is asking is:
-what happens if you Moat a Reckless attack? I'm still voting for: you can only reveal Moat once, at the start of the attack, and that single reveal blocks both iterations.
-how can Moat block a Chameleon'd Witch if you aren't following the Witch's instructions?

Actually while we're asking questions about Harbor Village: if you play Harbor Village, then Steward for +cards, then you Royal Carriage the Steward for +coins, does Harbor Village give +$1? I think not, as the Royal Carriage is a separate play. Meanwhile if you did the same thing with Reckless Steward, then I think Harbor Village should work.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2022, 04:45:41 pm »
+1

Yea with Moat, I think the question boils down to “what is the ‘it’ in ‘to be unaffected by it’?” I think Jeebus is thinking it means “unaffected by the card’s instructions”. But with Chameleon and Reckless, you aren’t following the card’s instructions.

If we look at the natural reading of the sentence, “it” seems to be “the playing of the attack card”. But where does that end exactly? If Cultist 1 plays Cultist 2 as part of playing Cultist 1, Cultist 2 can still affect you (unless you reveal Moat a second time when Cultist 2 is played). So what is the limit of the scope of what Moat protects you from?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Wizard_Amul

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 205
  • Respect: +216
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2022, 05:44:23 pm »
0

I'm not too sure about Moat vs the other cards Jeebus asked about, but like Donald X said, I thought Moat was pretty clear. Maybe I'm forgetting about some other ruling, but Moat doesn't care what the card says or which instructions you're following, just that you play a card with the type "Attack" on the bottom--since Moat says "first," it doesn't matter what happens with the Attack card once you put the Attack card in your play area, because you reveal the Moat before reading any instructions (wherever the instructions are coming from). So, for the Reckless attack, I think it should be what dz said--you can only reveal Moat once, at the start of the attack, and that single reveal blocks both iterations; you only put the attack card in play once, and then how many times you follow which instructions doesn't matter. This also agrees with the Cultist scenario by GendoIkari--even though Cultist 2 is put into play by Cultist 1, it the the playing of the Cultist 2 attack card that allows Moat to react to it, like how Moat can react to the playing of any other attack card.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2022, 06:56:58 am »
+1

Elder should work the same as Harbor Village. If a Way said "choose one," Elder would give you an extra choice.

So then you are changing the ruling about Elder with Chameleon and the ruling about Elder with Reckless?

Quote from: Donald X.
I am not clear as to what the question is here. Moat happens before you decide to use a Way or not.

The issue is "unaffected by it". Moat seem to be like Elder ("when it gives you..."), so if using Elder on a Chameleon'ed card does nothing (which was your earlier ruling), then using Moat on a Chameleon'ed card also should do nothing.

Quote from: Donald X.
The rules for Ways say: "Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do."

So when you play a card and use Way of the Sheep to get +$2, you "played the card" to get +$2. "...Play it to do what the Way says..."

Harbor Village asks if playing the Action gave you +$, and if you used Way of the Sheep, it did. That is the logic there.

I just don't understand how "playing the card does something" means anything beyond "the played card instructs you to do that thing". Cards don't actually do anything, right? The player is the one actually doing it. "Chapel trashes cards" is short-hand meaning that you trash cards because Chapel instructs you to.

Playing Smithy draws you 3 cards = On play, Smithy instructs you to draw 3 cards
Playing Monument gives you 1 VP token = On play, Monument instructs you to take 1 VP token
Playing Market gives you +$1 = On play, Market instructs you to get +$1

What about?: Playing Workshop with Way of the Sheep gives you +$2
This cannot mean: On play, Workshop instructs you to get +$2
What instructs you to get +$ is Way of the Sheep.

Yes, you can say that you "played Workshop" to get +$, but that is also true if you have your +$1 token on the Workshop pile. Both the Way and the token instruct you to get +$ and happen as a result of playing Workshop.

This should mean that Elder, Harbor Village and Moat all refer to what the played card instructs you to do. If something gets in there and tells you to do something else instead, it's like Ironworks/Trader, right? It's not what Elder, Harbor Village and Moat refer to.

***

I can see changing the ruling for Way of the Chameleon and Reckless so that "follow the instructions" actually means that you resolve the played card's instructions. (This is what everybody assumes anyway!) Then Moat, Elder and Harbor Village would work as expected with Chameleon and Reckless; although it would mean that Reckless repeats the Way. It would also mean that Chameleon can't prevent Enchantress's attack. Harbor Village would still not work with other Ways (like Sheep) though.

You could go further and change how Ways (+Enchantress, Highwayman) work, so that they count as resolving the played card's instructions for any ability that cares about that, but still don't actually modify the instructions (for replaying with Royal Village or gaining a copy). Then Harbor Village would work with Sheep. It wouldn't change much else (compared to the Chameleon/Reckless change above), and the rule for keeping Durations in play would make more sense.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 12:38:17 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2022, 12:24:33 pm »
+1

although it would mean that Reckless repeats the Way.

I was with you until just here. Did you mean to say that reckless will repeat the card even when it was played with a Way? Or that reckless will actually repeat the Way (so with Sheep you get another +$2)? I’m not quite seeing how either options works… Reckless still only does something if you followed the instructions the first time. So it would work with Chameleon but not other Ways.

Unless of course you’re including the proposed “go further” option that is in the last paragraph.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2022, 12:35:25 pm »
+1

although it would mean that Reckless repeats the Way.

I was with you until just here. Did you mean to say that reckless will repeat the card even when it was played with a Way? Or that reckless will actually repeat the Way (so with Sheep you get another +$2)? I’m not quite seeing how either options works… Reckless still only does something if you followed the instructions the first time. So it would work with Chameleon but not other Ways.

Unless of course you’re including the proposed “go further” option that is in the last paragraph.

You're absolutely right. I was confusing the two options. With the first option, Reckless will still work according to the rulebook:
Quote from: rulebook
If you skip following the instructions of the card - for example by using a Way (from Menagerie) instead - then you don't follow them an extra time

With the "go further" option, Reckless will follow the Way instructions an extra time.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 12:42:00 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2022, 12:42:31 pm »
+2

I'm not too sure about Moat vs the other cards Jeebus asked about, but like Donald X said, I thought Moat was pretty clear. Maybe I'm forgetting about some other ruling, but Moat doesn't care what the card says or which instructions you're following, just that you play a card with the type "Attack" on the bottom--since Moat says "first," it doesn't matter what happens with the Attack card once you put the Attack card in your play area, because you reveal the Moat before reading any instructions (wherever the instructions are coming from). So, for the Reckless attack, I think it should be what dz said--you can only reveal Moat once, at the start of the attack, and that single reveal blocks both iterations; you only put the attack card in play once, and then how many times you follow which instructions doesn't matter. This also agrees with the Cultist scenario by GendoIkari--even though Cultist 2 is put into play by Cultist 1, it the the playing of the Cultist 2 attack card that allows Moat to react to it, like how Moat can react to the playing of any other attack card.

No, it’s not an issue of revealing Moat, there’s no question that you can reveal a Moat each time an attack is played. The question is what is the extent of stuff that the Moat protects you from? Does it only prevent you from effects that result from following the card's instructions? Or does it protect you from other stuff that results from your opponent having played the card? If the first one, then you shouldn’t be protected from a Chameleon Militia. If the second one, then you should be protects from the second Cultist (even if you don’t reveal Moat when second Cultist is played).

Imagine a Way of the Militia that just says “each opponent discards down to 3 cards”. If you play a Smithy and choose to use Way of the Militia, then obviously your opponents can’t do anything about it; you never played an attack for them to reveal Moat to. But what if you play Witch, they reveal Moat, and you choose to use Way of the Militia? Does the Moat protect them? If so, why? They're protected from Witch, but Witch isn’t the thing attacking them. Chameleon and Reckless, under the latest/current rulings, should work the same as Way of the Militia.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2022, 01:31:32 pm »
+1

I think the Moat question Jeebus is asking is:
-what happens if you Moat a Reckless attack? I'm still voting for: you can only reveal Moat once, at the start of the attack, and that single reveal blocks both iterations.
-how can Moat block a Chameleon'd Witch if you aren't following the Witch's instructions?
- Correct; again Ways specifically change what a card does when played; you're playing the card to do the Way. This is just me continuing to refer to that rulebook text I quoted.
- Again the rulebook text says that Way change what a card does - A Way of the Sheep'd Witch results in Witch making $2, Witch is making the $2, that's what the Way rules say. So Moat means you're unaffected by that.

Actually while we're asking questions about Harbor Village: if you play Harbor Village, then Steward for +cards, then you Royal Carriage the Steward for +coins, does Harbor Village give +$1? I think not, as the Royal Carriage is a separate play. Meanwhile if you did the same thing with Reckless Steward, then I think Harbor Village should work.
Harbor Village is referring to that play of the card; further plays don't interest it.

Reckless's extra follow-instructions is part of the play of the card.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2022, 02:00:12 pm »
+2

So then you are changing the ruling about Elder with Chameleon and the ruling about Elder with Reckless?
Elder with Chameleon: I hadn't re-read the Way rules; re-reading them it's clear that, let's quote it again (from the wiki but I trust them):

"Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do."

It's easy to make the mistake - a mistake I have made repeatedly - of thinking "Ways replace what would have happened with a new thing and you're sure not playing the card anymore, anymore than you're gaining the card Ironworks would have gained when you use an original-printing Trader on it." That's all wrong though. Ways change what you get out of playing the card; instead of playing Smithy for +3 Cards, you use Way of the Sheep and are playing Smithy for +$2. You're playing Smithy for +$2! Smithy is giving you +$2, he repeated, trying to drive this home. So Moat stops that +$2 from hurting you and Elder looks at it for chooses and Harbor Village sees if that includes +$.

Reckless: Oh man it's three things. Let's copy them over.

What does Reckless actually do though, and what's the timing? Is it timed like Enchantress and Ways, effectively being like Chameleon and saying "follow the card's instructions twice instead of once"? Or does it trigger after you have follow the instructions once?
The timing is "after following the instructions of a Reckless card due to playing it." And what it does then is, it has you follow the instructions again.

So, Reckless's "follow the instructions" works like Way of the Chameleon's "follow the instructions"?
So when you have Reckless Border Guard, Lantern affects the first iteration but not the second?
And when you use Elder to play a Reckless card, Elder affects the first iteration but not the second?
Tentatively yes to those.

I said: The timing is "after following the instructions of a Reckless card due to playing it." And what it does then is, it has you follow the instructions again. That sure sounds accurate still.

Quote
So, Reckless's "follow the instructions" works like Way of the Chameleon's "follow the instructions"?
I guess a better answer here is, "I don't know what you mean." I really don't. Reckless is like Reckless and Way of the Chameleon is like Way of the Chameleon and "follow the instructions" means "follow the instructions." "Follow the instructions" is the same everywhere it appears, and everything else that's different is different in whatever way it's different in each place.

Quote
So when you have Reckless Border Guard, Lantern affects the first iteration but not the second?
Tentatively Lantern affects both. Sweet, now you can quote either post to get the answer you want.

Quote
And when you use Elder to play a Reckless card, Elder affects the first iteration but not the second?
Tentatively Elder affects both iterations.

Reckless, like a Way, changes what playing the card does for you. In the weird cases where we refer to what a card does for you, Reckless has changed what the card does for you.

I'm going to hope that that somehow did the trick; you'll tell me if it didn't.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2022, 04:49:06 pm »
0

Quote
So, Reckless's "follow the instructions" works like Way of the Chameleon's "follow the instructions"?
I guess a better answer here is, "I don't know what you mean." I really don't. Reckless is like Reckless and Way of the Chameleon is like Way of the Chameleon and "follow the instructions" means "follow the instructions." "Follow the instructions" is the same everywhere it appears, and everything else that's different is different in whatever way it's different in each place.

What I meant is, if "follow the card's instructions" works the same, the following is true:
- If Lantern works on Chameleon'ed Border Guard, Lantern works on Reckless Border Guard's second iteration.
- If Elder works on Chameleon'ed card, Elder works on Reckless card's second iteration.

Quote from: Donald X.
Quote
So when you have Reckless Border Guard, Lantern affects the first iteration but not the second?
Tentatively Lantern affects both. Sweet, now you can quote either post to get the answer you want.

So that really sounds like Lantern also affects Chameleon'ed Border Guard? (Previously you ruled that it didn't.)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 04:50:37 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2022, 04:13:45 pm »
+2

Quote
So, Reckless's "follow the instructions" works like Way of the Chameleon's "follow the instructions"?
I guess a better answer here is, "I don't know what you mean." I really don't. Reckless is like Reckless and Way of the Chameleon is like Way of the Chameleon and "follow the instructions" means "follow the instructions." "Follow the instructions" is the same everywhere it appears, and everything else that's different is different in whatever way it's different in each place.

What I meant is, if "follow the card's instructions" works the same, the following is true:
- If Lantern works on Chameleon'ed Border Guard, Lantern works on Reckless Border Guard's second iteration.
- If Elder works on Chameleon'ed card, Elder works on Reckless card's second iteration.

Quote from: Donald X.
Quote
So when you have Reckless Border Guard, Lantern affects the first iteration but not the second?
Tentatively Lantern affects both. Sweet, now you can quote either post to get the answer you want.

So that really sounds like Lantern also affects Chameleon'ed Border Guard? (Previously you ruled that it didn't.)
I do not recommend having any "if x then y" logic that involves Lantern; it's a kludgy mess that does not really work. It's a shapeshifter in a world where I got rid of them.

Lantern: Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2. (It takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn.)
Border Guard: +1 Action. Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand and discard the other. If both were Actions, take the Lantern or Horn.
Elder: +$2. You may play an Action card from your hand. When it gives you a choice of abilities (e.g. “choose one”) this turn, you may choose an extra (different) option.
Way of the Chameleon: Follow this card's instructions; each time that would give you +Cards this turn, you get +$ instead, and vice-versa.
Reckless: Follow the instructions of played Reckless cards twice. When discarding one from play, return it to its pile.

Ways: Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do.


Lantern looks for a played Border Guard that says "Reveal the top 2 cards... discard the other..." That specific thing. And it changes it to revealing 3, discarding 2. It could have been some other similar thing that has no issues, but no, what it is is this very specific ability-changing thing.

Let us briefly note that Border Guard's text does not interact with Way of the Chameleon; Lantern / Chameleon questions are for your personal understanding and not actually answering a rules question from any hypothetical game ever.

Lantern / Chameleon'd Border Guard: Well, Chameleon didn't actually change the text, and Ways are still you playing the card, so tentatively Lantern applies to it.
Lantern / Reckless Border Guard: Tentatively Lantern applies both times. I don't see how there's a real answer buried in the card texts. How specific is Lantern here really? IRL everyone would guess that you Lantern'd both times.
Elder / Chameleon'd Minion: Chameleon is still you playing Minion, so Elder applies.
Elder / Reckless Minion: Reckless's extra instructions is still part of you playing Minion, so Elder applies.
Logged

dz

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 209
  • Shuffle iT Username: DZ
  • Respect: +342
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2022, 05:10:34 pm »
0

So how does Reckless work with Ways/Enchantress/Highwayman then? The rulebook says:

"If you skip following the instructions of the card - for example by using a Way (from Menagerie) instead - then you don't follow them an extra time, but still return the card when discarding it from play."

Is that still correct?

I would guess the following is the most consistent:
-Reckless card is Enchanted: you get +1 Card +1 Action (once)
-Reckless card is Highwaymanned: you get nothing
-Reckless card is Way of the Sheep'd: you get +$2 (once)
-Reckless card is Way of the Chameleon'd: you get 2 iterations

It may be Reckless to think this, but let's all hope this is the end of the Reckless saga.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 05:12:20 pm by dz »
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2023, 12:55:12 pm »
0

I do not recommend having any "if x then y" logic that involves Lantern; it's a kludgy mess that does not really work. It's a shapeshifter in a world where I got rid of them.

Actually, Lantern got errata in 2019 so that it's no longer a shapeshifter. But I don't think it matters for the present questions.

Quote from: Donald X.
Let us briefly note that Border Guard's text does not interact with Way of the Chameleon; Lantern / Chameleon questions are for your personal understanding and not actually answering a rules question from any hypothetical game ever.

I think they do interact, in a game with Chameleon, Border Guard and Enchantress - going by the ruling that using Chameleon prevents the Enchantress attack: You're Enchanted and you're playing a Border Guard, so you naturally use Chameleon. And you have Lantern.

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2023, 01:11:12 pm »
0

It's easy to make the mistake - a mistake I have made repeatedly - of thinking "Ways replace what would have happened with a new thing and you're sure not playing the card anymore, anymore than you're gaining the card Ironworks would have gained when you use an original-printing Trader on it." That's all wrong though. Ways change what you get out of playing the card; instead of playing Smithy for +3 Cards, you use Way of the Sheep and are playing Smithy for +$2. You're playing Smithy for +$2! Smithy is giving you +$2, he repeated, trying to drive this home. So Moat stops that +$2 from hurting you and Elder looks at it for chooses and Harbor Village sees if that includes +$.

So I'm going to go back to the post where you asked if that did the trick; and unfortunately it didn't quite do it. The issue is still the part of my earlier post that you didn't address: the difference between "what the card does" and "the card's instructions".

To recap it: Cards don't actually do anything, right? The player is the one actually doing it. So if "Smithy is giving you +$2", that can't mean anything other than "Smithy instructs you to get +$2". (Compare with "Smithy is drawing you cards": Smithy instructs you to draw cards.)

So if Smithy instructs you to do something, that must count as Smithy's instructions. This means that Ways and Enchantress actually change the instructions. Also, you compared Enchantress to Ironworks/Trader before, but now you're saying that is wrong. So it seems you're changing how to interpret Ways/Enchantress. This would mean that you could still override Enchantress with a Way (you just apply the Way last), but Chameleon can't prevent Enchantress, only change it into "+$1 and +1 Action". And Reckless makes you follow the Enchantress's or Way's instructions an extra time. (As I wrote above, this would also make the Duration rules for Ways make sense with no special ruling.)

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2023, 01:18:57 pm »
+1

So how does Reckless work with Ways/Enchantress/Highwayman then? The rulebook says:

"If you skip following the instructions of the card - for example by using a Way (from Menagerie) instead - then you don't follow them an extra time, but still return the card when discarding it from play."

Is that still correct?
Yes; Reckless looks for a play of a card causing its instructions to be followed. If you Way of the Sheep a Reckless card, Reckless does not trigger there.

I would guess the following is the most consistent:
-Reckless card is Enchanted: you get +1 Card +1 Action (once)
-Reckless card is Highwaymanned: you get nothing
-Reckless card is Way of the Sheep'd: you get +$2 (once)
-Reckless card is Way of the Chameleon'd: you get 2 iterations

It may be Reckless to think this, but let's all hope this is the end of the Reckless saga.
Any of those but Chameleon, you didn't follow-the-instructions, so Reckless doesn't trigger.

With Chameleon, you don't do the normal following-of-instructions, but you do directly follow the instructions, and you're playing the card to do that, because that's what Ways do. This one question requires, basically, specifically saying whether Reckless works or not; the computer code that we don't have for Reckless, does it see Chameleon as "well you played the card to follow its instructions," or is it, "but we didn't follow the instructions, we replaced that with Chameleon, which just happens to follow the instructions"? For me at 10:18 AM Pacific time, it makes more sense that we didn't follow the instructions, and Reckless doesn't kick in.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2023, 01:34:24 pm »
+1

So I'm going to go back to the post where you asked if that did the trick; and unfortunately it didn't quite do it. The issue is still the part of my earlier post that you didn't address: the difference between "what the card does" and "the card's instructions".

To recap it: Cards don't actually do anything, right? The player is the one actually doing it. So if "Smithy is giving you +$2", that can't mean anything other than "Smithy instructs you to get +$2". (Compare with "Smithy is drawing you cards": Smithy instructs you to draw cards.)

So if Smithy instructs you to do something, that must count as Smithy's instructions. This means that Ways and Enchantress actually change the instructions. Also, you compared Enchantress to Ironworks/Trader before, but now you're saying that is wrong. So it seems you're changing how to interpret Ways/Enchantress. This would mean that you could still override Enchantress with a Way (you just apply the Way last), but Chameleon can't prevent Enchantress, only change it into "+$1 and +1 Action". And Reckless makes you follow the Enchantress's or Way's instructions an extra time. (As I wrote above, this would also make the Duration rules for Ways make sense with no special ruling.)
The key problem is, if I attach meaning to e.g. "what the card does" then you may say "aha that overturns ruling 3XB," because previously I was just talking using English, not computer code. It's not concrete enough to be sure it's consistent the way you appear to want it to be. It's not jargon so that I can define it. Sadly this post is then all about how I can't define non-jargon for you. When a card says "foo" I can define "foo" and we can be happy, but at some point here we are reduced to words that are not jargon and can be used colloquially and may not always mean the same thing. In the computer program everything is precise, one way or another; in English, not always.

"Follow the instructions" means to do the text on the card that happens when playing the card; you stop at a dividing line. Some cards have no such text e.g. Estate. "Follow the instructions" is jargon, it occurs in card texts to mean a specific thing, and we need to be very clear on exactly what that means. I have no issue there; you can poke at it and we can make it as precise as it has to be.

"The card's instructions," that's a hand-waving reference to this text, the text that "follow the instructions" refers to. Maybe in some context it's been used in some other way; I can't pin that down for you because it's not actually jargon. It feels like something we could pin down, but I mean, I don't want to create jargon I don't have to.

Smithy doesn't "instruct, the jargon word" you to do anything, because there's no such jargon in Dominion.

"Cards don't do anything," colloquially, is of course nonsense; cards do all sorts of things. I can't turn that into jargon for you.

So if Smithy instructs you to do something, that must count as Smithy's instructions. This means that Ways and Enchantress actually change the instructions. Also, you compared Enchantress to Ironworks/Trader before, but now you're saying that is wrong. So it seems you're changing how to interpret Ways/Enchantress. This would mean that you could still override Enchantress with a Way (you just apply the Way last), but Chameleon can't prevent Enchantress, only change it into "+$1 and +1 Action". And Reckless makes you follow the Enchantress's or Way's instructions an extra time. (As I wrote above, this would also make the Duration rules for Ways make sense with no special ruling.)
"That must count as Smithy's instructions" is a poor line of reasoning here. I don't follow it, I don't agree to it. Smithy's instructions, colloquially, are "+3 Cards." "Follow the instructions" for Smithy makes you draw 3 cards.

I don't think I've changed anything about Ways / Enchantress.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2023, 05:41:34 am »
+1

I read your post several times, and I think I understand what you're saying. The thing is, there are cards that talk about cards "doing things" or "giving things", namely the cards on top of this thread - let's focus on Harbor Village. So it must have a meaning in Dominion. I don't think the "jargon" matters; I'm sure it could be described in several ways. But we need to be clear on exactly what it means, just as you say about "follow the card's instructions".

I would think "the card's instructions" is self-evident. It's referred to in the rulebook: "Playing an Action card [means] ... following the instructions on it, in order, top to bottom."

The phrase ("cards do something") is actually used a lot "colloquially" (as you also say) in the rulebooks, but there it always refers to the same as following the card's instructions:

(A) Smithy draws 3 cards.
(B) You follow Smithy's instructions to draw 3 cards.

I don't understand how (A) and (B) can be different. (B) is just a more technically accurate way of expressing (A). That's how it's used everywhere.

But you're saying that with Ways/Enchantress, (A) is happening divorced from (B). That a card can "draw cards" or "give $" without it meaning that you're following the card's instructions to do it. But clearly, you're following the instructions on some other card to do it (the Way or Enchantress).

The rules for Ways say: "Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do."

We have established what Enchantress and Ways do: when you would resolve the on-play instructions of the played card, you instead follow other instructions. So that must be what that rulebook text is referring to. It says that you can play the Action card and choose to do what the Way says to do, in other words, follow the instructions on the Way. It doesn't actually say that this means that the card "did" something. (It does say that you resolve the Way when playing the card, but as I said above, you also resolve your +$1 token when playing the card.)

Again, I don't understand what (A) technically means when it doesn't mean (B). Again, technically cards don't draw cards, the players do it because they're following instructions.

Just for clarity: If (A) and (B) are the same, then either
* Enchantress and Ways don't change the card's instructions (as with Ironworks/Trader) - and the played card didn't "do" anything since you didn't follow its instructions;
or
* Enchantress and Ways do change the card's instructions - and Harbor Village works with Sheep, Enchantress can change Chameleon's change etc.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2023, 05:49:37 am by Jeebus »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2023, 01:23:53 pm »
+1

(A) Smithy draws 3 cards.
(B) You follow Smithy's instructions to draw 3 cards.

I don't understand how (A) and (B) can be different. (B) is just a more technically accurate way of expressing (A). That's how it's used everywhere.
It's colloquially fine to say, "you follow Smithy's instructions to draw 3 cards." When you play Smithy, you follow its instructions, these tell you to draw 3 cards, you do that.

I'm protecting myself with "colloquially" there just because, I don't want to define more terms than I have to, or make it hard to have rules conversations because every word is laden with technical meaning.

But you're saying that with Ways/Enchantress, (A) is happening divorced from (B). That a card can "draw cards" or "give $" without it meaning that you're following the card's instructions to do it. But clearly, you're following the instructions on some other card to do it (the Way or Enchantress).
Ways specifically say, that bit I've quoted over and over, that you *play the card* to do the Way.

Enchantress does not say that. It says that you get cantrip instead of following the card's instructions. So, from just that, it's not clear that getting the cantrip means you in some technical sense "played the card to do that." You did, in real life, colloquially, play the Smithy to get +1 Card and +1 Action. But, technically, it's not so clear. If we need to know "what is giving you this cantrip," well, it looks like Enchantress is.

Enchantress: Until your next turn, the first time each other player plays an Action card on their turn, they get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions.

The rulebook FAQ, however, attributes the cantrip to the action. "While this is in play, the first Action each other player plays on each of their turns will give them +1 Card +1 Action instead of what it would have normally done."

The fact that Enchantress makes it look like the Smithy didn't give you cantrip - instead making it look like Enchantress did - no doubt has caused confusion for me and maybe one other person through these years. Of course it's great to have Enchantress and Ways work the same way if possible though.

We have established what Enchantress and Ways do: when you would resolve the on-play instructions of the played card, you instead follow other instructions. So that must be what that rulebook text is referring to. It says that you can play the Action card and choose to do what the Way says to do, in other words, follow the instructions on the Way. It doesn't actually say that this means that the card "did" something. (It does say that you resolve the Way when playing the card, but as I said above, you also resolve your +$1 token when playing the card.)
But the Way rulebook text doesn't say anything about +$1 tokens, and it very specifically says, that you are playing the card to do the Way effect. So e.g. Harbor Village cares about Way of the Sheep. I'm not sure if you're arguing against that or what, but, that's my ruling there.

Just for clarity: If (A) and (B) are the same, then either
* Enchantress and Ways don't change the card's instructions (as with Ironworks/Trader) - and the played card didn't "do" anything since you didn't follow its instructions;
or
* Enchantress and Ways do change the card's instructions - and Harbor Village works with Sheep, Enchantress can change Chameleon's change etc.
"Change the card's instructions" sounds like dangerous territory. Nothing "changes" card instructions, not even Lantern these days as I forgot. Way of the Sheep causes you to not follow Smithy's instructions, but they're still +3 Cards. But "Way of the Sheep doesn't change a card's instructions" doesn't change the fact that it does work with Harbor Village; Ways specifically say that you are playing the card for e.g. the +$2, which is what Harbor Village cares about.

Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2023, 02:15:02 pm »
+1

For me at 10:18 AM Pacific time, it makes more sense that we didn't follow the instructions, and Reckless doesn't kick in.

I know there's a couple posts after this which I haven't read yet, but...the problem is that this seems like a direct contradiction to what you said less than 24 hours before this. That when you use a Way, you did in fact "play the card to do what the way does".

It seems like the problem at its core is that you want 3 separate ideas of what it means for playing a card to get you something... There's a clear line between when you're looking at "were the card's instructions followed?" (Reckless with Ways doesn't work) , and when you're looking at "what events resulted from playing the card?" (When Cultist plays a Cultist, the second Cultist play isn't included in Moat protects you from if you revealed Moat to original Cultist).

But you want a third option, somewhere in between those 2... something where using a Way means that you didn't follow the card's instructions, yet somehow it's still part of what Moat protects against (and what Elder can affect, etc). But we already know that "stuff that results from playing the card which isn't the card's instructions" don't count. So what exactly is this third, in-between thing? Are we defining "what a card does" to specifically mean "its set of instructions, as well as any possible Ways that were used for it. But not including any other triggered abilities or other card plays that happen when you play it."?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1323
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1379
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2023, 02:20:02 pm »
0

I can come up with a "solution" of sorts: each card intrinsically has its native instructions and its shadow instructions (swapping round +Card and +Coin), the latter of which can only be accessed via Way of the Chameleon. Playing Moat protects you against both the native instructions and the shadow instructions.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2023, 02:25:55 pm »
+1

For me at 10:18 AM Pacific time, it makes more sense that we didn't follow the instructions, and Reckless doesn't kick in.

I know there's a couple posts after this which I haven't read yet, but...the problem is that this seems like a direct contradiction to what you said less than 24 hours before this. That when you use a Way, you did in fact "play the card to do what the way does".

It seems like the problem at its core is that you want 3 separate ideas of what it means for playing a card to get you something... There's a clear line between when you're looking at "were the card's instructions followed?" (Reckless with Ways doesn't work) , and when you're looking at "what events resulted from playing the card?" (When Cultist plays a Cultist, the second Cultist play isn't included in Moat protects you from if you revealed Moat to original Cultist).

But you want a third option, somewhere in between those 2... something where using a Way means that you didn't follow the card's instructions, yet somehow it's still part of what Moat protects against (and what Elder can affect, etc). But we already know that "stuff that results from playing the card which isn't the card's instructions" don't count. So what exactly is this third, in-between thing? Are we defining "what a card does" to specifically mean "its set of instructions, as well as any possible Ways that were used for it. But not including any other triggered abilities or other card plays that happen when you play it."?

I guess what I really want to know is; what's the difference between Way of the Sheep and your + token? There are clear rulings (in the Plunder rulebook) that say Way of the Sheep counts as Smithy giving you , but your token on the pile does not count as Smithy giving you . Is this just a special unnamed thing that Ways do, which make them different from any other effect that happens when you play a card?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2023, 04:53:44 am »
0

For me at 10:18 AM Pacific time, it makes more sense that we didn't follow the instructions, and Reckless doesn't kick in.

I know there's a couple posts after this which I haven't read yet, but...the problem is that this seems like a direct contradiction to what you said less than 24 hours before this. That when you use a Way, you did in fact "play the card to do what the way does".

It seems like the problem at its core is that you want 3 separate ideas of what it means for playing a card to get you something... There's a clear line between when you're looking at "were the card's instructions followed?" (Reckless with Ways doesn't work) , and when you're looking at "what events resulted from playing the card?" (When Cultist plays a Cultist, the second Cultist play isn't included in Moat protects you from if you revealed Moat to original Cultist).

But you want a third option, somewhere in between those 2... something where using a Way means that you didn't follow the card's instructions, yet somehow it's still part of what Moat protects against (and what Elder can affect, etc). But we already know that "stuff that results from playing the card which isn't the card's instructions" don't count. So what exactly is this third, in-between thing? Are we defining "what a card does" to specifically mean "its set of instructions, as well as any possible Ways that were used for it. But not including any other triggered abilities or other card plays that happen when you play it."?

Yes, I think Donald is saying:
(1) Ways (including Chameleon) and Enchantress make you not follow the card's instructions.
(2) Ways, Enchantress and Reckless refer to the card's instructions, and if you're not following the card's instructions, those three don't do anything.
(3) Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village and Moat, on the other hand, refer to "effects from playing the card" - which of course includes following the card's instructions, but also includes what Ways do (and maybe what Enchantress does?).

The problem is that "effects from playing the card" should also include your +$1 token, League of Shopkeepers, and a Cultist played by Cultist. So it's like Ways have some special, undefined ability to trick Harbor Village, Moat, etc. Otherwise we'd have to say that that "effects from playing the card" only means following the card's on-play instructions; but that would make (2) untrue: Ways, Enchantress and Reckless would work on a card affected by a Way or Enchantress.

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2023, 05:49:41 am »
+1

(A) Smithy draws 3 cards.
(B) You follow Smithy's instructions to draw 3 cards.

I don't understand how (A) and (B) can be different. (B) is just a more technically accurate way of expressing (A). That's how it's used everywhere.
It's colloquially fine to say, "you follow Smithy's instructions to draw 3 cards." When you play Smithy, you follow its instructions, these tell you to draw 3 cards, you do that.

My point is that (A) always means (B). (I don't think you've explained how it can mean anything else.) This means that Harbor Village's "if the card gave you +$" can only mean "if you followed the card's instructions to get +$".

Quote from: Donald X.
Ways specifically say, that bit I've quoted over and over, that you *play the card* to do the Way.

As I said, Ways have been defined to do this: when you would resolve the on-play instructions of the played card, you instead follow other instructions. So that must be what "play the card to do what the Way says to do" is referring to. You play the card and choose to do what the Way says to do, in other words, follow the instructions on the Way.

Quote from: Donald X.
The fact that Enchantress makes it look like the Smithy didn't give you cantrip - instead making it look like Enchantress did - no doubt has caused confusion for me and maybe one other person through these years. Of course it's great to have Enchantress and Ways work the same way if possible though.

When Ways were introduced, they were supposed to work like Enchantress, meaning the Way does the effects, not the Action card.
Even the rulebooks say that Ways, Enchantress and Highwayman do the same thing, so in any case I think it would be a mistake to say that they are different:
Quote from: Menagerie rulebook
Enchantress from Empires also changes what an Action card does when played. If you are affected by Enchantress, you can use a Way instead of getting the +1 Card and +1 Action that Enchantress's effect would give you.

Quote from: Donald X.
(It does say that you resolve the Way when playing the card, but as I said above, you also resolve your +$1 token when playing the card.)
But the Way rulebook text doesn't say anything about +$1 tokens, and it very specifically says, that you are playing the card to do the Way effect. So e.g. Harbor Village cares about Way of the Sheep. I'm not sure if you're arguing against that or what, but, that's my ruling there.

It's not relevant what the Way rules say about the +$1 token. It's Harbor Village's interaction with Ways and with the +$1 token we're talking about. If Harbor Village cares about what instructions you resolved when you played the card (including things that are not the card's instructions), why wouldn't that include the +$1 token's instructions (and League of Shopkeepers's instructions) as well as the Way's instructions?

Quote from: Donald X.
"Change the card's instructions" sounds like dangerous territory.

I know we don't want it to be shape-shifting, which I guess would mainly cause problems for "gain a copy" (for instance with Way of the Rat). That's why I think the first option I wrote about at the bottom of this post is better. The second option tries to create some middle-ground where it's not shape-shifting but it still counts are resolving the card's instructions somehow. I'd be happy to list what each change would entail for different card combinations, but I don't think you agree with me about the necessity for any of these options.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12  All
 

Page created in 0.138 seconds with 20 queries.