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Author Topic: Supporting Alchemists  (Read 10243 times)

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ackack

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Re: Supporting Alchemists
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2011, 01:15:04 pm »
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Some good reason for drawing most or all of your deck every turn, specifically something good enough that it will beat simpler strategies that go straight for green cards.

Can you give some examples of what those reasons might be? I've already mentioned discard for benefit cards like Secret Chamber/Vault, but I'm sure there are others.

Numerous examples are given through this thread. The presence of strong attacks is likely an encouraging sign - Alchemists will let you see them somewhat more often, usually function as somewhat of a defensive counter themselves, and will usually benefit from having an overall slower game. guided's mention of Bank and +buy is another big one.

I think Alchemist and City have a lot in common. They can both be very, very good, but a lot of the trick is judging correctly when you can use them. I've certainly guessed wrong on Alchemist many times.
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guided

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Re: Supporting Alchemists
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2011, 02:27:10 pm »
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Personally, I err toward Alchemist decks (provided there is a source of +buy) like I err toward Minion and Torturer decks. Even when it's a marginal strategy, if you ignore it and it ends up working out for your opponent it is massively un-fun to sit there while they grind you under with their 5-minute turns, and then you buy like a Duchy in 3 seconds with your own crappy hand.
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ShuffleNCut

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Re: Supporting Alchemists
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2011, 04:02:05 pm »
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For anyone feeling adventurous (I would but I have no time atm), I'd be curious to see what the simulator says for a province game of:

Chapel
Alchemist
Vault
Council Room, Then as options for greater analysis of what the lichpin is, cards such as:
Steward
Bridge
Warehouse
Worker's Villiage

I fired it up and got This on the first go through on Iso.  I didn't even bother counting bridges or anything;  I was just clicking buttons...

Pretty sure that's not idea but I seriously doubt alchemists add to the strategy.
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Superdad

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Re: Supporting Alchemists
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2011, 09:16:42 am »
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Indeed, small sample size of 1 is small.

I was thinking more of the simulation analysis threads that were created, and how someone simulates a game (thousands of iterations), then someone else tries to beat it.

I.e. start with bigmoney + Council Room to get the baseline.

Then go Alchemists + tweaks to try to beat it. Try and find what tweaks are required to beat BM + CR.


Going further, you could then go Chapel + BM + CR and then try to beat *that* with various Alchemist decks. This could help "discover" what the key support cards for alchemist are.
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ShuffleNCut

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Re: Supporting Alchemists
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2011, 03:43:05 pm »
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This could help "discover" what the key support cards for alchemist are.

Hearkening back to to my days of playing Magic I compare Alchemist decks to various combo decks; it doesn't matter how you get there, you only have to do it one turn faster than the other guy.  Whether an Alchemist based strategy (or any strategy for that matter) is good or not on a given board depends entirely on how fast you will win vs how fast other strategies will win.

There is no one card or set of cards that Alchemists requires to be viable; it's simply a factor of "If I spend X+1 or 2 (remember Potion) turns buying X Alchemists will they draw me enough extra of whatever is available to win before my opponent can win by doing whatever he's doing?"  The longer you expect the game to last and the more times you can expect to play your Alchemists the better they become.  This is why Alchemists are a better strategy in Colony games; you have about four to five turns on average more to set up.

Alchemists also become better when you already plan on buying potions.  Alchemist>Possession will effectively buy you more turns to make up the lost VP you missed by spending turns not buying money and the extra draws from Alch will let you play the Posessions more frequently.  Buying Alchemist after you've bought your relevant familiars is just fine too (they essentially become Labs that need a special silver to purchase).
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dan11295

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Re: Supporting Alchemists
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2011, 04:56:59 pm »
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Earlier today my opponent made the mistake of mostly ignoring Alchemists in a Colony game with Farming Village, Wharf and Watchtower all in play. Basically started drawing most of my deck and throwing stuff on top with the watchtower. Fun stuff. Maybe the watchtower isn't necessary in this setup but its nice to be able to deck your platinums and additional alchemists to made sure your draw them next turn. Only attack IIRC in this game was Ghost Ship, which is rather ineffective against an Alchemist deck (sure..I will just redraw the two alchemists I just put back...burning 1 alchemist in the process.)

I would imagine they would fail against certain engines if they are present. e.g. good Gardens decks, Village/Torturer, Warehouse/Treasure Map. These either end the game too quickly or grind your engine to a halt before you can really get going.
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