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majiponi

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Reckless
« on: December 19, 2022, 09:17:33 am »
0

I play a Village and a Reckless Conspirator.
Do I get +1 Card, +1 Action from second play?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2022, 10:37:52 am »
+3

No. Reckless doesn't tell you to play the card again, only to follow its instructions again. So you still have only played 2 total cards this turn. This is distinctly different from playing Throne Room on a Conspirator.
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majiponi

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2022, 09:05:26 pm »
+1

So, if I play a Reckless Soothsayer and opponent draws a Moat, can't she reveal it when resolving 2nd Cursing?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2022, 09:50:28 pm »
+3

Also no, because you reveal Moat in response to the card being played; once your opponent begins to resolve the card’s instructions, it’s too late to reveal a Moat. And with Reckless the card isn’t played again to give you another chance.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2022, 09:52:56 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2022, 02:36:06 am »
+1

Shouldn't the first revealing of Moat be valid for the second following of Soothsayers instructions?
Moat tells you to be unaffected by the played Attack card, and Reckless tells you to follow the instructions of played Reckless cards twice. To me that seems like the card does the thing twice. For the Moat to only affect the first round of instructions you have to say that "this" (the first run-through) "is what Soothsayer does, and this" (the second run-through) " is what Reckless does." But Reckless just tells you to follow the instructions twice. If it had said "After you play a Reckless card, follow its instructions again" then the second play would have been solely because of Reckless. The current wording seems functionally equivalent to if the card text had been printed twice on Soothsayer, in which case the Moat  would count for both run-throughs.
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kieranmillar

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2022, 02:48:20 am »
+1

Yes, revealing Moat would block both times the attack occurs, but that is not what is happening in the example, where the Moat is the card drawn as a result of Soothsayer's attack.
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mxdata

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2022, 02:48:37 am »
+1

Shouldn't the first revealing of Moat be valid for the second following of Soothsayers instructions?
Moat tells you to be unaffected by the played Attack card, and Reckless tells you to follow the instructions of played Reckless cards twice. To me that seems like the card does the thing twice. For the Moat to only affect the first round of instructions you have to say that "this" (the first run-through) "is what Soothsayer does, and this" (the second run-through) " is what Reckless does." But Reckless just tells you to follow the instructions twice. If it had said "After you play a Reckless card, follow its instructions again" then the second play would have been solely because of Reckless. The current wording seems functionally equivalent to if the card text had been printed twice on Soothsayer, in which case the Moat  would count for both run-throughs.

Yes, Moat would block both. The question was if you drew a Moat on the first attack, would you be able to block the second attack? And the answer is no. But, yes, if you revealed a Moat on the initial play of Soothsayer, it would block both
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2022, 02:53:15 am »
0

Oh okay.
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Jeebus

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2022, 07:15:26 am »
0

I thought that what Reckless does was the following: After you resolve the on-play instructions of a Reckless card, follow them again. I don't see any other possible timing. (Except maybe: When you would resolve the on-play instructions of a Reckless card, follow them twice instead of once.)

So you only play the card once of course. Moat triggers when an Attack card is played, before the played card's on-play instructions are resolved. With Reckless you play a card and then follow the on-play instructions twice. I don't see that there's a definitive answer to whether Moat can be revelead both times or not.

But Reckless seems very much like Way of the Chameleron to me. Both tell you to follow a card's instructions. Playing Border Guard with Way of the Chameleon, Lantern does nothing since you're not resolving Border Guard's instructions. This makes me realize that Moat shouldn't work either when you play an attack using Way of the Chameleon! And the same would apply to the second Reckless resolution.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 07:16:55 am by Jeebus »
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majiponi

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2022, 11:17:07 am »
+3

When I play Reckless Outpost, do I gain 2 extra turns, one of which starts with 3-card hand, the other starts with  5-card hand, right?

I do think Reckless should have been written to replay (that doesn't cause another replay) instead of following twice.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2022, 11:24:44 am »
+2

When I play Reckless Outpost, do I gain 2 extra turns, one of which starts with 3-card hand, the other starts with  5-card hand, right?

That sounds right to me. Powerful!!

Quote
I do think Reckless should have been written to replay (that doesn't cause another replay) instead of following twice.

It would have been messy with Ways. And Donald alluded to other issues with playing twice instead.

*Edit* Sorry it was Taskmaster that Donald talked about. But I'm guessing some of the same issues with that would have arisen with Reckless as well.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 11:28:35 am by GendoIkari »
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dz

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2022, 11:29:31 am »
0

I guess I should mention that, for now, I'm ignoring Way of the Chameleon, and just focusing on Reckless. It's also worth noting that the online implementation of Reckless is kinda broken right now, so let's not use it.

Firstly, card abilities go in this order:
1. When you play, first...(Moat)
2. When you would follow a card's instructions, instead...(Enchantress)
3. Modify a card's instructions (Reckless)
4. After playing a card (Royal Carriage)

There's only one instance where you can use Royal Carriage on a Reckless card: after you finish both (uh how do you say it concisely, I guess iterations) of the card. I don't see how the wording suggests a traditional "afterwards" that you see on Royal Carriage.

I also think that, a single attack block will block both iterations of the attack. So you only need to reveal Moat once, and Lighthouse will always keep you safe. Reckless simply works differently than Throning an attack.

Finally, Donald X. told m_knox who told me that: "Reckless happens whenever you follow the card's instructions, so it happens with Way of the Chameleon." So unlike other Ways, Reckless Chameleon will have 2 iterations. Make of that what you will.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 11:35:29 am by dz »
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Jeebus

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2022, 12:03:15 pm »
0

I guess I should mention that, for now, I'm ignoring Way of the Chameleon, and just focusing on Reckless. It's also worth noting that the online implementation of Reckless is kinda broken right now, so let's not use it.

Firstly, card abilities go in this order:
1. When you play, first...(Moat)
2. When you would follow a card's instructions, instead...(Enchantress)
3. Modify a card's instructions (Reckless)
4. After playing a card (Royal Carriage)

There's only one instance where you can use Royal Carriage on a Reckless card: after you finish both (uh how do you say it concisely, I guess iterations) of the card. I don't see how the wording suggests a traditional "afterwards" that you see on Royal Carriage.

I also think that, a single attack block will block both iterations of the attack. So you only need to reveal Moat once, and Lighthouse will always keep you safe. Reckless simply works differently than Throning an attack.

Finally, Donald X. told m_knox who told me that: "Reckless happens whenever you follow the card's instructions, so it happens with Way of the Chameleon." So unlike other Ways, Reckless Chameleon will have 2 iterations. Make of that what you will.

I think I agree that Moat can only be used in the beginning, and Royal Carriage only in the end. They are both tied to playing the card, which happens once, so it makes sense that they both happen once. We already know that Royal Carriage triggers even when you don't resolve the played card (because of Enchantress or a Way), meaning that whenever the on-play instructions are finished (whether they were resolved or not), Royal Carriage triggers. So if we end up resolving the on-play instructions an extra time, the time for Royal Carriage hasn't happened until both times are done. It should be the same for Moat.

If Reckless "modifies" the card's instructions - since it's not actually changing the card's instructions, I'm sure - it must then mean: When you would resolve the on-play instructions of a Reckless card, follow them twice instead of once.
EDIT: This would mean that Reckless has the same timing as Enchantress.
In that case, you're not following the card's instructions at all, so Moat would not block any of the iterations.

It sounds like Donald is confused about what Chameleon actually does. He has previously ruled that it works like other Ways, that you're not following the card's instructions. He should probably change the ruling about Lantern and Chameleon, so it's consistent with the Reckless ruling you sited. He should probably also change the ruling about Enchantress, Highwayman and Ways, so that their instructions actually count as the card's instructions. This way, Enchantress + Sheep means you get $2 (same as today, but we have to put Enchantress first), Enchantress + Chameleon means you get +$1 and +1 Action, Chameleon + Enchantress means you get +1 Card and +1 Action, Harbor Village + Way works as described in the rulebook, Reckless + Sheep means you get $2 twice, Elder + Chameleon means you get the extra option, Moat works on both Chameleon and Reckless, and Duration + Way works as today with no need for a special rule. EDIT: And "this" on the Way card texts makes more sense.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 08:54:48 am by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2022, 12:21:55 pm »
+1

Going by current rulings, there is also the question of what happens with Enchantress and Reckless. I'm assuming Reckless is like Chameleon. If Reckless indeed modifies all the instructions, then it should mean that you can dodge Enchantress with Reckless. But if Reckless only adds an iteration after you have resolved the instructions once, then the first iteration would be Enchanted (+1C, +1A) and the second would be normal, I think.

GendoIkari

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2022, 01:53:41 pm »
+1

it must then mean: When you would resolve the on-play instructions of a Reckless card, follow them twice instead of once.
In that case, you're not following the card's instructions at all, so Moat would not block any of the iterations.

1) Is there a ruling before that clarifies that Moat only blocks you from being affected by following a card's instructions?

2) Why wouldn't you be following the attack card's instructions when you're following an instruction that says "follow them [the instructions] twice"?
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Jeebus

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2022, 03:09:56 pm »
0

it must then mean: When you would resolve the on-play instructions of a Reckless card, follow them twice instead of once.
In that case, you're not following the card's instructions at all, so Moat would not block any of the iterations.

1) Is there a ruling before that clarifies that Moat only blocks you from being affected by following a card's instructions?

Revealing Moat to a Cultist only blocks that Cultist, not another Cultist that it plays. This means that Moat doesn't block other abilities that trigger as a result of playing an Attack card, just the Attack card itself.

Quote from: GendoIkari
2) Why wouldn't you be following the attack card's instructions when you're following an instruction that says "follow them [the instructions] twice"?

For the same reason as why you're not following Smithy's insutrctions of you follow Chameleon's instructions that says to follow the Smithy's instructions. I mean, that's the whole point here, Ways make you not follow the card's instructions, and this includes Chameleon.

GendoIkari

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2022, 04:50:50 pm »
+1


For the same reason as why you're not following Smithy's insutrctions of you follow Chameleon's instructions that says to follow the Smithy's instructions. I mean, that's the whole point here, Ways make you not follow the card's instructions, and this includes Chameleon.

Ah, then yeah I agree it doesn't seem consistent. I thought Chameleon did make you follow the card's instructions (I mean it literally is in the text: "Follow this card's instructions"). Seems like a stretch to say that you aren't following this card's instructions when you do so....

Intuitively, no one would ever think that Reckless bypasses Moat somehow. Actually you don't even need Reckless here; under your interpretation of Donald's interpretation, Moat shouldn't work on Chameleon either!

But with Harbor Village and Reckless (and I guess Chameleon before that), it seems like we're establishing something in between "something that this card's instructions make you do" and "something that triggers off of playing a card". As in, something that allows Moat to block Cultist without automatically blocking the second Cultist play. Some sort of concept of "what a card does" that wasn't clearly defined before. "What a card does" is more than "the card's instructions", but less than "everything that happens as a result of playing the card".

I don't know how to define it, but we know some things it includes and some things it doesn't:

It doesn't include adventures tokens on the piles.
It doesn't include other abilities that are triggered while resolving the played card (Whether that's playing another card, or on-gain / on-trash stuff).
It does include whatever a Way does when you play the card with the Way.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 04:52:52 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2022, 08:45:22 am »
0

Ah, then yeah I agree it doesn't seem consistent. I thought Chameleon did make you follow the card's instructions (I mean it literally is in the text: "Follow this card's instructions"). Seems like a stretch to say that you aren't following this card's instructions when you do so....

Intuitively, no one would ever think that Reckless bypasses Moat somehow. Actually you don't even need Reckless here; under your interpretation of Donald's interpretation, Moat shouldn't work on Chameleon either!

Yes, I wrote in my first post in this thread that Moat shouldn't work on Chameleon.

Quote from: GendoIkari
But with Harbor Village and Reckless (and I guess Chameleon before that),

It's not just Reckless and Chameleon; it's Enchantress, Highwayman, Reckless (I assume) and all Ways.

Reckless and Chameleon are actually a special case, because they tell you to follow the card's instructions. According to the previous ruling, Chameleon still doesn't count as you following the card's instructions, so Enchantress will not affect it, Lantern will not affect it, and Elder will not affect it. By the same token, Moat should not affect it.

The same applies to Enchantress, Highwayman and the other Ways. But we could imagine that Reckless and Chameleon do result in resolving the card's instructions while Enchantress, Highwayman and the other Ways don't.

Quote from: GendoIkari
it seems like we're establishing something in between "something that this card's instructions make you do" and "something that triggers off of playing a card". As in, something that allows Moat to block Cultist without automatically blocking the second Cultist play. Some sort of concept of "what a card does" that wasn't clearly defined before. "What a card does" is more than "the card's instructions", but less than "everything that happens as a result of playing the card".

I don't know how to define it, but we know some things it includes and some things it doesn't:

It doesn't include adventures tokens on the piles.
It doesn't include other abilities that are triggered while resolving the played card (Whether that's playing another card, or on-gain / on-trash stuff).
It does include whatever a Way does when you play the card with the Way.

Yes, the problem is of course that it's not clearly defined now either.

Somehow, Lantern, Elder, and Ways/Enchantress/Highwayman/Reckless themselves, strictly care about the card's instructions; while Moat and Harbor Village are satisfied with this fuzzy idea of the "replaced" instructions. I can't see anything on those cards (or the rules for them) indicating this distinction.

However we slice it, we have to assume that the Reckless + Chameleon ruling is wrong, because it's not consistent with previous Chameleon rulings. If Chameleon is applied first, Reckless should do nothing (since Reckless looks at the card's instructions, something Donald even acknowledges in the quoted ruling).

Donald X.

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2022, 02:53:00 pm »
+2

Finally, Donald X. told m_knox who told me that: "Reckless happens whenever you follow the card's instructions, so it happens with Way of the Chameleon." So unlike other Ways, Reckless Chameleon will have 2 iterations. Make of that what you will.
My guess is that at the time I had mentally changed Reckless to "the card has an extra copy of its instructions." Maybe there was a better wording along those lines; dunno. Reckless as printed actually cares about playing the card, not following its instructions. And this is reinforced in the FAQ. When you play a card, normally, you follow its instructions; Reckless gets in there and says "follow them an extra time." So "Reckless happens whenever you follow the card's instructions" is wrong. You have to be playing the card for (that part of) Reckless to do anything.

Using a Way does mean playing the card; however you're playing the card to do the Way's text, not to follow the card's instructions. Chameleon happens to follow the card's instructions as part of what it does, but that's meaningless to Reckless; it doesn't kick in.
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Jeebus

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2022, 04:24:00 pm »
0

What does Reckless actually do though, and what's the timing? Is it timed like Enchantress and Ways, effectively being like Chameleon and saying "follow the card's instructions twice instead of once"? Or does it trigger after you have follow the instructions once?

dz

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2022, 06:07:19 pm »
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Thx DXV, Chameleon not working with Reckless makes more sense. (In case anyone wondered, yes m_knox actually did DM me on discord a week ago, and they told me Chameleon worked with Reckless. And well I had no reason to believe they were lying/mistaken.)

My interpretation otherwise is that:
-Ways/Highwayman/Enchantress make you ignore a card's instructions and make you do something else (or nothing)
-Lantern/Envious directly modify a card's instructions.

This is why Ways override Lantern, because Lantern is trying to modify instructions that you're not even following. And yes that includes Chameleon.

And now that we know Reckless doesn't work with Chameleon, I'm more confident that Reckless is more like a Lantern than an Enchantress, and it certainly doesn't sound like a Royal Carriage.
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Jeebus

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2022, 04:01:04 am »
0

Thx DXV, Chameleon not working with Reckless makes more sense. (In case anyone wondered, yes m_knox actually did DM me on discord a week ago, and they told me Chameleon worked with Reckless. And well I had no reason to believe they were lying/mistaken.)

My interpretation otherwise is that:
-Ways/Highwayman/Enchantress make you ignore a card's instructions and make you do something else (or nothing)
-Lantern/Envious directly modify a card's instructions.

Lantern doesn't "directly modify" a card's instructions. (Envious does.) Lantern used to, before its errata, but not now. It just has a different timing than Enchantress etc. Enchantress triggers when you would resolve the card's play ability (= on-play instructions) and makes you do something else instead. Lantern triggers when you would resolve the reveal effect and discard effect as part of Border Guard's play ability, and makes you do something else instead.

Quote from: dz
This is why Ways override Lantern, because Lantern is trying to modify instructions that you're not even following. And yes that includes Chameleon. And now that we know Reckless doesn't work with Chameleon, I'm more confident that Reckless is more like a Lantern than an Enchantress,

Ways, Enchantress and Highwayman all override each other (or rather, prevent each other from doing anything) - including Chameleon - so that is not a valid argument for why Reckless couldn't be like Enchantress.

Quote from: dz
and it certainly doesn't sound like a Royal Carriage.

I never thought or meant to suggest that Reckless is like Royal Carriage. Royal Carriage triggers when you're done resolving the play ability (whether you resolved it or did something else instead). Reckless, if it triggered after resolving the play ability once, would still be happening inside the window considered "resolving the play ability", so Royal Carriage would happen after. (I wrote exactly this in a previous post here, concluding: "So if we end up resolving the on-play instructions an extra time, the time for Royal Carriage hasn't happened until both times are done.")

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2022, 01:21:40 pm »
+1

What does Reckless actually do though, and what's the timing? Is it timed like Enchantress and Ways, effectively being like Chameleon and saying "follow the card's instructions twice instead of once"? Or does it trigger after you have follow the instructions once?
The timing is "after following the instructions of a Reckless card due to playing it." And what it does then is, it has you follow the instructions again.
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Donald X.

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2022, 01:22:33 pm »
0

Thx DXV, Chameleon not working with Reckless makes more sense. (In case anyone wondered, yes m_knox actually did DM me on discord a week ago, and they told me Chameleon worked with Reckless. And well I had no reason to believe they were lying/mistaken.)
m_knox correctly reported what I'd answered them in an earlier DM.
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Jeebus

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2022, 04:29:48 am »
0

What does Reckless actually do though, and what's the timing? Is it timed like Enchantress and Ways, effectively being like Chameleon and saying "follow the card's instructions twice instead of once"? Or does it trigger after you have follow the instructions once?
The timing is "after following the instructions of a Reckless card due to playing it." And what it does then is, it has you follow the instructions again.

So, Reckless's "follow the instructions" works like Way of the Chameleon's "follow the instructions"?
So when you have Reckless Border Guard, Lantern affects the first iteration but not the second?
And when you use Elder to play a Reckless card, Elder affects the first iteration but not the second?

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Re: Reckless
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2022, 02:43:18 pm »
+1

What does Reckless actually do though, and what's the timing? Is it timed like Enchantress and Ways, effectively being like Chameleon and saying "follow the card's instructions twice instead of once"? Or does it trigger after you have follow the instructions once?
The timing is "after following the instructions of a Reckless card due to playing it." And what it does then is, it has you follow the instructions again.

So, Reckless's "follow the instructions" works like Way of the Chameleon's "follow the instructions"?
So when you have Reckless Border Guard, Lantern affects the first iteration but not the second?
And when you use Elder to play a Reckless card, Elder affects the first iteration but not the second?
Tentatively yes to those.
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