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Author Topic: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift  (Read 1531 times)

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Augie279

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Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« on: December 01, 2022, 12:54:35 pm »
+2



Challenge: Make a card that uses National Parks.

A bit of an interesting one here. There's already a couple of non-Supply Actions (Spirits, Horse) and a non-Supply Treasure (Spoils) so let's round out the trifecta with a non-Supply Victory card. Looking for cards that do something interesting with them. Straight up gaining them is nice but shouldn't be as easy as gaining Imps/Will O' Wisps due to their VP gain and shouldn't be as difficult as Wishes due to them stacking. Maybe incorporate that below-the-line effect somehow? You've got options.

Best of luck to all entrants, and I'll see you all when the contest ends! (December 8, 2022)

Edit: Upon suggestion from exfret, there are six National Parks.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 09:21:00 pm by Augie279 »
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2022, 01:14:17 pm »
0

A couple of questions:

Challenge: Make a card that uses National Parks.
1. Are landscapes (Event, Project, Ally, etc.) allowed?

A bit of an interesting one here. There's already a couple of non-Supply Actions (Spirits, Horse) and a non-Supply Treasure (Spoils) so let's round out the trifecta with a non-Supply Victory card.
2. How many copies of National Park are there? Does it work like Supply Victory cards (8 for 2 players, 12 for 3+) or is there a different number of them.
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segura

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2022, 01:21:03 pm »
+3

Read the Intrigue Secret History, this quadratic scoring thingy was the first version of Duke and is broken. I think it is unlikely that making it a non-Supply version fixes the issue.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 01:22:20 pm by segura »
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Augie279

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2022, 02:33:59 pm »
0

A couple of questions:
1. Are landscapes (Event, Project, Ally, etc.) allowed?
2. How many copies of National Park are there? Does it work like Supply Victory cards (8 for 2 players, 12 for 3+) or is there a different number of them.

Landscapes are allowed. Normal Victory card supply counts apply here.
Read the Intrigue Secret History, this quadratic scoring thingy was the first version of Duke and is broken. I think it is unlikely that making it a non-Supply version fixes the issue.
Disagree, but that's a problem that card designs will have to work around. More interesting to have non-Supply piles give problems that its cards have to solve, IMO.
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segura

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2022, 02:41:44 pm »
0

If anything, the card or landscapes that makes you gain the broken card becomes even more broken and centralizing than the quadratic Victory card itself because the path towards BrokenRealm becomes narrower.
Suppose you design an Altar variant that makes you gain the Victory˛ for $5. That card is now absolutely mandatory because you cannot risk losing the split (with Provinces a 3-5 split implies a VP delta of 12, with Victory˛ the very same split leads to a difference of 16).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 02:48:31 pm by segura »
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Augie279

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2022, 02:43:49 pm »
0

Make them hard to get like Wishes currently are. It's not purchasable. Do what you like with that restriction.
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segura

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2022, 02:56:08 pm »
+1

Make them hard to get like Wishes currently are. It's not purchasable. Do what you like with that restriction.
Sure, you could do something like Leprechaun but instead of Wishes it gains Victory˛. Well, that is simple to analyze as well. You need 4 copies of this to become strictly better than Duchy (and thus Wish) and this is hard to pull of with Leprechaun. So you don’t want to go down that path.

The idea could have merit but the problem of Victory˛ is simply that it is either too weak or too strong. The Goldilock zone in which it works is too small or does not exist at all.
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czzzz

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2022, 03:44:32 pm »
+1


Terminal Shepherd. Since it draws before, the Shepherd effect is boosted.
I thought Shepherd would be nice since we're working with a Victory card.

And then when you gain it you can trash a Gold you played, for the Park. Wanted it to be a hurdle but not insurmountable.
Happy to adjust based on feedback
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BryGuy

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2022, 09:44:21 am »
+3

When i first saw the card, i though maybe we'd each pick a National Park and design a Victory to comprise a split pile like Castles. Future idea maybe?

Here is my entry:

Tree  Monger ($5, Action - Attack): +1 Action; Each other player trashes a National Park or reveals a hand with no National Park. You may gain one National Park from the trash. If you did not, trash a National Park from the Supply and gain a National Park.

This should evoked the National Park's below line text.

Update 20221208: added "+1 Action" and "trash from Supply"
« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 02:14:33 pm by BryGuy »
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Erick648

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2022, 07:45:52 pm »
+2

Here's a split pile (5-5, like in Empires, as opposed to the 4-4-4-4 rotating split piles from Allies) that limits the exponential potential and forces you to choose a strategy:


Quote
Forest Paths
$2 Night - Duration
At the start of your next turn:
Discard any number of cards, then draw that many.

When you gain this, each player (including you) may gain a National Park.
Quote
Tycoon
$5 Action - Attack
Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, discards any non-Victory cards, and puts the rest back in any order they choose.

Set aside any Action or Treasure cards you discarded in this way and play them in either order.
This doesn't directly interact with the on-trash penalty of National Park, but it does indirectly interact with it:  The difficulty in trashing National Parks makes you think twice about getting one from an opponent's Forest Paths, and the Tycoon attack doesn't punish Curses like it does National Parks and other Victory cards.


When i first saw the card, i though maybe we'd each pick a National Park and design a Victory to comprise a split pile like Castles. Future idea maybe?
That does sound fun.
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segura

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2022, 04:45:30 am »
+1

1-4-9-16-25-36-49-64 is quadratic, not exponential.
Would you really spent $5 for a cantrip mini-Rabble attack? Probably not and if it is a conditional cantrip most definitely not.
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exfret

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2022, 12:56:58 pm »
+2



In my mind, regardless of the number of players, there are six national parks. Yes, six. Anything more and quadratic growth makes losing splits too painful when splits are a thing that happens.

Even then, having all or all but one of the National Parks is pretty bad news for everyone else. Mountain Goat addresses this issue by organically discouraging getting more than three National Parks (one for each Estate). Mountain Goat's power as a cheap nonterminal trasher also doesn't lean on the high-variance value of the National Parks. And hey, if you do decide to get rid of your Estate-turned-Duchies, Mountain Goat isn't too bad at trashing that Curse too.

And so, here he is: Mountain Goat! A munchy trasher whispering to you that there are better starting victory cards to be had than estates.
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Augie279

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2022, 09:20:17 pm »
+1

In my mind, regardless of the number of players, there are six national parks. Yes, six. Anything more and quadratic growth makes losing splits too painful when splits are a

...Yeah, probably a good idea. Changing the pile size.
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2022, 10:00:51 pm »
+2

My Submission:







Quote
Conservationist • $5 • Action
+5 Cards
Reveal your hand. If you have no National Parks in it, take the Survey. Discard 3 cards.

When you gain this, each other player gains a National Park.
Quote
Survey • Artifact
When you would gain a card costing $6 or more, you may exchange it for a National Park. If you do, or at the end of your turn, return this.

Given the potential strength of getting multiple National Parks, I wanted to put some serious limitations on it. First, you can only gain it by playing Conservationist. Second, if you already have copies of National Parks, you're more likely to have one in hand, keeping you from getting the Survey (and being able to get another). And, third, for each copy of Conservationist you get, you'll be giving away copies of National Park. This both limits the total you'll be able to get, and prevents you from getting too much of a head start. 

FAQ
When a player takes the Survey, the return it at the end of the turn, whether or not they gained a card costing $6 or more.




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Augie279

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2022, 09:32:31 am »
0

--=24 Hour Warning=--

Get those last few cards in!
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Xen3k

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2022, 07:32:12 pm »
+3



Quote
Industrialist - $5
Action
Trash a card from your hand.
Gain a card costing up to $3 more than it that does not share a type with it.
----
When you gain this, gain a National Park and a Curse.

A worse Expand with junk on gain. Not sure the nerfs are enough to warrant the $5 pricetag. Could be fun to go mass Industrialist to get all those National Parks, but you'll have to deal with the Curses gained along the way.
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czzzz

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2022, 12:02:02 am »
+1

Not sure the nerfs are enough to warrant the $5 pricetag
I think you nerfed it well! The restriction on what it gains knocks it down from Expand. And the Curse is a good burden since it's not a thinner.
I guess the question is how much you value the National Park. Some of the other cards found ways to sidestep that, haha. It seems like you're factoring it into the cost as maybe $1 or $2?
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Augie279

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2022, 04:53:01 pm »
+1

--=Contest Closed=--

Rating these tomorrow.
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Augie279

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2022, 10:54:18 pm »
+1

judging took a bit longer than expected, gonna try and get the last of these done when I wake up tomorrow
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Augie279

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2022, 12:12:04 pm »
+3

Alright. Let's do this.

czzzz - Forest Warden

I think the +2 Cards makes this better than Shepherd's +1 Action, but that's not too much of a concern because this doesn't come with a Pasture. The on-gain effect is a pretty good way to incorporate National Parks. The card itself doesn't mind excess greening (which you'd want from National Parks as they're quadratic) but the Gold trashing is still a good cost for a National Park. Good entry!

bryguy - Treemonger

My first thought was that this was a bit weak, but getting six Provinces and three Curses from six plays of this if uncontested... pretty solid. I like the game of constantly stealing National Parks from your opponents and cursing them for doing so, but this feels a bit... swingy. Blame the mechanic itself for that, not your submission.

Erick648 - Forest Paths/Tycoon

...Night Cellar and a weird Rabble/Golem lovechild. Both cards in here just feel... too weak, and while the double junking on gain seems intended to remedy that, I just don't see myself doing anything but eating the National Parks myself... which is not really what you want when both of you will always get the same number of VP from them. Tycoon's similarly weak, not really synergizing/antisynergizing with National Parks in a meaningful way and likely to have the Golem problem of being worse than Laboratory (except on 3-4 player boards, where the Pirate Ship stacking problem is invoked hard and fast). Good ideas? Yes. Needed a bit more time in the oven though.

exfret - Mountain Goat

A solid card that gives you a reason to keep your Estates around, or even buy more maybe? That'll be board dependent. Really good answer for junking attacks (you like Goat, you like this, though getting it a bit later than Goat isn't the best) and has some nice interactions with National Parks. Is the 6VP split (assuming you Goat your Estates and your opponent keeps them) worth you keeping the three extra stop cards? Who knows. Either way, some good interactions on display here.

emtzalex - Conservationist/Survey

Embassy's already pretty weak. Having to have no National Parks within two hands' worth of cards, plus give up a $6 buy (or Gold gain if you can cheat one out)? It's a buff, granted, but by how much? There's more kingdoms where you can do interesting things with this than Embassy (Exile kingdoms notably come to mind) but does that make this worth buying on the kingdoms those don't exist in? The opponent junking with NPs is nice, but I don't think it saves this.

Xen3k - Industrialist

The more I look at this card, the more genius each design decision becomes. Probably a bit quicker to mass-buy Industrialists and then trash them for Provinces than Big Money, but should be slow overall. The self-junking is a good restriction (and the "doesn't share a type" restriction makes it so that you can't trash your NPs for Provinces) and I think this plays a more major role on most boards than Expand does. As opposed to Expand's Remodel+, this feels like a card solidly designed to be your source of alt-VP while getting you a couple Provinces in the meantime, and it does a really good job at that. Nice work!

--------

Honorable mentions: Forest Warden, Treemonger

Runner-Up - Mountain Goat

Winner: Industrialist

Congrats to all entrants!
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Xen3k

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 50: A Natural Gift
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2022, 09:57:40 pm »
0

Thanks for the challenge and the judging Augie279! I will try and get the next challenge up tomorrow.
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