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Author Topic: Promo: Stash  (Read 9840 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Promo: Stash
« on: April 06, 2012, 11:01:24 am »
+5

Stash is a card that at first glance seems ever-so boring. Ok, at first glance it seems awesome, because it has a different back than every other card. But the functionality, at first, makes you think ‘Really? Really? Is this really substantially better than silver? Does this really need to cost $5?’ And it’s true, it’s a pretty lackluster card. But it does really need to cost $5, and it does have some substantial improvements.


Ok, let’s get all of the downsides out of the way first. It costs $5. This is the big one. Usually, you have something better to do on $5. Also, your opponent knows when you have it and where it is in your deck, just as much as you do. Finally, if you get possessed, it has some drawbacks, over and above just ‘it’s bad to let my opponent use good cards’. Because if your opponent possesses you when you’re reshuffling, including if you reshuffle at the end of your turn, in your cleanup phase, drawing your new hand, they get to place all your stashes. Which means they can place them WORSE than randomly throughout your deck. But ok, these (other than the cost) aren’t really that bad.

Now let’s look at the plus points. The biggest positive you’ve got is that you can stack all the stashes together. Normally, your good cards get spread out throughout your deck, and you really need to chain a few together in order to get something really nice done on your turn. This is why trashing is so good. This is why card draw is so good. They both give you good chances to have multiple good things in a turn. Stash gives you the same thing, except with stash, the upside of the ‘good things’ is a bunch of silvers. And a bunch of silvers can still be good, it’s just usually not as powerful as the benefits you get in other cases. You can also guarantee you have the stashes early in your reshuffle rather than late, which makes a big difference on, say, the last reshuffle, where getting a province now as opposed to in 4 turns can make an awfully big difference. But it’s important to note that sticking all the stashes back-to-back on top is not always optimal. There are a few reasons for this. First of all, you’re very often reshuffling when you’re drawing your new hand. If you’ve drawn 3 cards already, and you have 4 stashes, you may well want to put two other random cards on top to draw this hand, so that you get 4 all together next hand for a province. There are also some situations where you actually want your stashes spread out – menagerie and wishing well come to mind. Furthermore, if you’re coming to the endgame and you’re going to need some duchies before getting the penultimate or ultimate province, you may want to stack the stashes back-to-back say 5 or 10 cards down the line.

Stash’s ability can also be used in a few more creative ways than the big stack. The most normal of these is as a defense to an attack. Your opponent’s pirate ships and thieves bothering you? Stash can very often be placed so as to avoid them. The same is true of most cares-about-top-of-deck cards, from swindler to saboteur to even tribute sometimes. Very often, you want to hide the stashes from these kinds of cards, and you can do that pretty well. But there are lots of other situations where you can stick the stash in the way of these attacks, so that they take the hit instead of your more valuable cards. You need to watch the situation and your deck to know which is which, and you need to be good at guessing when your opponent will do these things at the time of your reshuffle in order to get maximum defensive benefit. Sometimes this is really easy (usually when they have uber-reliable engines that let them do it every single turn), but others, it’s not. In the endgame, stash can often play a critical role. Usually this happens when you already have a stash or two or especially three, you hit 5 or 6 or 7 money near the end of a reshuffle, and duchies are either out or a single duchy won’t make much difference on the outcome. Buy an extra stash or two, and you’re angling for that province pretty reliably. It sounds like a fringe case, and it is, because you don’t have stashes that often to start with, but you know, in super-clogged decks, those stashes can make a big difference.

There’s also several interesting combinations out there with stash, very non-standard stuff. There’s Native Village/Stash, which is pretty sensational on a 5/2 and barely above BM/Stash on the 4/3. There’s of course the very powerful Chancellor/Stash, which is just mega-good. There are also combos with almost anything that cycles well. So oracle+Stash is pretty nice, as are warehouse+stash and cellar+stash. Golem+Stash would be nice, but it’s exceptionally slow to set up. Golem+scheme+stash is cute, but usually there’s something better. Embassy, the king of cyclers, works wonders with stash. Only, usually if embassy’s available, there’s something better than stash to buy (embassies or golds or provinces).

Stash is very successful against cursing attacks and other junking attacks like ambassador, because you still get to ensure yourself that clean slate of stashes very nicely bunched together, allowing you a province even with a bunch of garbage in your deck. $8 one hand and $0 the next is better than $4 and $4. Where it suffers is against discard attacks. You’ll never get a province out of only 3 stashes (although to be fair, that’s going to be true of many cards). It’s also not so hot in colony games. 5 stashes never get you a colony, and it’s pretty slow to get you much anything you need actually; still better than silver, but you typically WANT high variance to get to 11 quickly, or at least lots of golds.


Works with:
Chancellor, chancellor, chancellor
Wishing Well
Cyclers
Cursing attacks
Opponents' top-of-deck attacks
BM games where your terminal isn’t a 5-cost and you don’t want many of it

Works poorly with:
Most anything strong, which will be faster
Discard attacks
Colony games

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2012, 04:54:44 pm »
0

Hmm... how do you put stashes down worse than randomly? I presume mostly towards the bottom of the deck, but a little spread out?
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Varsinor

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2012, 05:01:32 pm »
0

Thanks for this good and comprehensive article! :)

However, I don't think you have answered the question satisfactory you posed yourself in the beginning:

But the functionality, at first, makes you think ‘Really? Really? Is this really substantially better than silver? Does this really need to cost $5?’ And it’s true, it’s a pretty lackluster card. But it does really need to cost $5,

So far, I can see nothing in your article that convinces me why Stash needs to cost $5. Actually, since I have first seen it when it was published I have always thought it should only cost $4, and I think that to this day. The fact that it shines in one combination (together with Chancellor) doesn't mean it would be too cheap at $4 - there are many other cards for which you'd gleefully pay more than they actually cost in certain kingdoms where they combo nicely with one particular other card.

In my opinion, cards should ideally be priced so that they are attractive enough (but not too attractive) in the "average" kingdom - meaning it should *usually* neither be a no-brainer to buy them nor a no-brainer to not buy them. It is obviously hard for a game designer to achieve this goal for all cards, but I think Stash would fit this rule of thumb a lot better at a price of $4. For a price of $5, in my opinion there are far better choices that make it a no-brainer to not buy Stashes for $5 too often.

Or can someone convince me otherwise? 8)

EDIT: Typos.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 05:24:57 pm by Varsinor »
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ftl

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2012, 05:02:59 pm »
0

Hmm... how do you put stashes down worse than randomly? I presume mostly towards the bottom of the deck, but a little spread out?

A little spread out, near the bottom. That way, you don't get the four-stashes-equal-one-province hand in that shuffle. And the stashes at the very bottom are likely miss the reshuffle, so you can't even set up a four-stash hand in the NEXT shuffle either.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 05:21:16 pm by ftl »
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ftl

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2012, 05:13:18 pm »
+1

In my opinion, cards should ideally be priced so that they are attractive enough (but not too attractive) in the "average" kingdom - meaning it should *usually* neither be a non-brainer to buy them nor a non-brainer to not buy them. It is obviously hard for a game designer to achieve this goal for all cards, but I think Stash would fit this rule of thumb a lot better at a price of $4. For a price of $5, in my opinion there are far better choices that make it a non-brainer to not buy Stashes for $5 too often.

Or can someone convince me otherwise? 8)

Well, considering how often people buy Silver with $4 anyway, the problem with a $4 stash may be that that in the average Kingdom, stash WOULD be a no-brainer instead of silver. After the opening, are you really going to draw that many $3 hands? I suspect that at $4, you'd wind up with every Big Money-ish game with Stash in it turning into a Stash-dominated game, because Stash would just be the go-to treasure after the opening Silver.

I mean, it wouldn't be a brokenly amazing card, I think, but it would definitely have the opposite problem of being a no-brainer to buy Stash in a lot of cases.


Like in some openings. Masq/Silver opening would then become Masq/Stash. Amb/Silver becomes Amb/Stash. Chapel/Silver opening becomes Chapel/Stash. And so on. Any terminal which is $3 or $2 and worth opening with would likely be paired with Stash instead of Silver, not because there's some particular reason to use Stash with them but just because it's better than Silver so why not.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 05:20:10 pm by ftl »
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Varsinor

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2012, 05:23:41 pm »
0

I mean, it wouldn't be a brokenly amazing card, I think, but it would definitely have the opposite problem of being a no-brainer to buy Stash in a lot of cases.

Hmm, fair enough, maybe you are right and for $4 it would indeed be a little too attractive. (So convincing me on this particular issue has proven to not be too difficult after all... ;))

Still, I am not really satisfied with the overall attractiveness of Stash at $5. After all, the power break from $4 to $5 is supposed to be the most relevant one in the game (at least it is for many of the $5 cards).
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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2012, 09:23:03 pm »
0

Of course. This article isn't trying to argue that Stash is one of the best $5's, or even one of the good $5's. It simply trying to demonstrate good and bad play using Stash and illustrating some ways to get mileage out of it in relatively more favourable situations.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Matt_Arnold

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2012, 10:51:06 pm »
+1

Would it be worth $5 if it were "When you gain this, or when you shuffle, put this anywhere in your deck"?
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ecq

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2012, 11:25:39 pm »
0

A $4 price point would also cause interaction with Ironworks, Workshop, and Talisman.

It'd be far too easy to acquire 3 or more Stashes before the 2nd shuffle, which seems broken.  I imagine many games would become Stash races similar to what we see with Fool's Gold, but worse in some ways because it's a no-brainer decision to buy a Stash instead of a Silver.
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Varsinor

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2012, 06:27:24 am »
0

Would it be worth $5 if it were "When you gain this, or when you shuffle, put this anywhere in your deck"?

I like that, that might have brought it a lot closer to the average attractiveness a $5 card should have. It would definitely have made for a very attractive buy on a 5/2 start (not so much 2/5 though).
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gamesou

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 02:40:12 am »
0

I think Stash is good is small decks - you can use the ability more often. An example: as an opening, Stash/Chapel is much better than Silver/Chapel, because your opening cards will collapse less often (the key point is that, when you reshuffle during the clean-up phase, you are allowed to look at your cards before choosing where you put the Stash).
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Asklepios

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 04:23:01 am »
0

I wonder how Stash stacks up alongside a Fool's Gold deck. I can see that generally speaking a Fool's Gold deck is going to benefit more from extra buys to get fools golds quickly, but say you open 5/2: would Stash / Fool's Gold be better than Fool's Gold x2, or Smithy / Fool's Gold?

My thinking is that the Stashes will often be able to avoid clashing with the Fool's Golds (or to be more precise, they decrease the odds of multiple fools golds in one hand less than a gold or silver do), and also give a good place to spend $5 when you draw 2 Fools Golds and no other money.
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Varsinor

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 09:05:37 am »
0

An example: as an opening, Stash/Chapel is much better than Silver/Chapel, because your opening cards will collapse less often (the key point is that, when you reshuffle during the clean-up phase, you are allowed to look at your cards before choosing where you put the Stash).

No, you are not - at least not if you are saying that you can look at the fronts of the cards.
Stash would be insanely powerful if you could effectively arrange your entire draw deck with one Stash! The rule comments on the promotional cards explicitly prohibit that:
Quote from: Rules
You can't look at the fronts of the other cards in your deck to see where to put it; Stash itself has a different card back, so that's how you'll know where it is.

And if you don't look at the fronts of any cards, I don't see why a collision of 1 Stash and a Chapel would be any less likely than a collision of Chapel and Silver.
(I obviously don't dispute that opening Stash/Chapel is better than Silver/Chapel, just not as much as you seem to claim.)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 09:09:17 am by Varsinor »
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gamesou

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 09:31:23 am »
0

And if you don't look at the fronts of any cards, I don't see why a collision of 1 Stash and a Chapel would be any less likely than a collision of Chapel and Silver.
(I obviously don't dispute that opening Stash/Chapel is better than Silver/Chapel, just not as much as you seem to claim.)

Of course you cannot look the fronts !

What I mean is that you know some of the cards in your hand when you reshuffle, and you can use this information to choose the place of the Stash. If you know that your hand will contain a Chapel, don't place Stash on top, otherwise do. This looks that a minor effect, but it's useful. Especially if your aim is to trash all your deck (e.g. before buying 2 Treasure Maps).
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Varsinor

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Re: Promo: Stash
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 10:18:09 am »
0

If you know that your hand will contain a Chapel, don't place Stash on top, otherwise do.

Fair enough, I hadn't thought of the possibility that you may know that you'll draw Chapel in the 1-4 cards which are left in your draw pile and avoid putting Stash on top of the new draw pile then - that should be most important when Chapel is card #11 or #12 after the first reshuffle.
That is indeed a considerable benefit.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 10:20:47 am by Varsinor »
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