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majiponi

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Don't let your opponent do something.
« on: October 27, 2022, 04:37:26 am »
+2

Kingdom: Importer, Port, Guildmaster, Livery
Landscapes: City-state, Way of the Butterfly

You have 4 Coppers in hand.

Win on turn 1.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2022, 12:03:57 pm »
+1

I was going to bring a game log from dominion.games, but it looks like Livery is bugged there with City-State.
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majiponi

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2022, 12:30:34 pm »
+1

I was going to bring a game log from dominion.games, but it looks like Livery is bugged there with City-State.

I know that bug.  Maybe we need Berserker to do this crazy combo on dominion.games.
Now I am trying to invent 5-or-less card combo for 3 pile ending on turn 1.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2022, 03:03:32 pm »
0

Do you mean just swapping Berserker for Livery? I don't think that works, but I could be missing something. Adding any one of Sculptor / Berserker / Falconer (maybe more?) to the kingdom above will work, or just adding two of them instead of Livery. (For dominion.games I mean).

edit: and the $6 gainers also work for this purpose (Artisan / Altar), at least when paired with a $5 gainer for sure.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 03:26:25 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2022, 03:40:02 pm »
+1

The Province pileout with any $5 gainer + $6 action + $7 action instead of Livery is sort of cute too.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 04:03:54 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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majiponi

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2022, 06:59:14 pm »
0

Do you mean just swapping Berserker for Livery?

No. Just add Berserker to kick off.

buy Port
-gain Port
--butterfly it
---gain Guildmaster
----play it
----+1 Favor
--+1 Favor
--gain Port
---+1 Favor
---butterfly
----gain Berserker instead of Livery
-----+1 Favor
-----play it (Guildmaster is in play)
------gain Port
-------+1 Favor
-------butterfly it
--------gain Livery
---------+1 Favor
---------play it
-------gain Port
--------+1 Favor
--------gain Horse
---------+1 Favor
---------butterfly it
----------gain Guildmaster
-----------+1 Favor
-----------play it
-----------+1 Favor

We have a Horse to gain.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 07:00:37 pm by majiponi »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2022, 08:17:29 pm »
0

I know adding Berserker works, that's what I said (as does any $5 gainer like Sculptor or Falconer).
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2022, 08:34:34 pm »
0

Lol, I tried to do the first kingdom on TGG since Livery/City-state works there, but it crashed once it got nested too far. And also the interface made doing the gaining loops way more confusing.
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Holger

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2022, 07:34:41 am »
+1

The Province pileout with any $5 gainer + $6 action + $7 action instead of Livery is sort of cute too.

Indeed. :D I think you might be able to empty the whole supply if you also add Seaway (putting the +Buy token on Port) and a kingdom card costing $4+ that gives you the buy for it.

Actually, just adding Forum and a cost reducer like Bridge to the OP's kingdom suffices to empty the supply, as you can gain Forum and return it to the supply infinitely often for unlimited +Buys. So that's an 8-card combo to empty the supply on turn 1 (with probability 50%, as you need to draw at least 4 Coppers).
« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 08:18:45 am by Holger »
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majiponi

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2022, 11:38:12 pm »
0

The Province pileout with any $5 gainer + $6 action + $7 action instead of Livery is sort of cute too.

Indeed. :D I think you might be able to empty the whole supply if you also add Seaway (putting the +Buy token on Port) and a kingdom card costing $4+ that gives you the buy for it.

Actually, just adding Forum and a cost reducer like Bridge to the OP's kingdom suffices to empty the supply, as you can gain Forum and return it to the supply infinitely often for unlimited +Buys. So that's an 8-card combo to empty the supply on turn 1 (with probability 50%, as you need to draw at least 4 Coppers).

No. 6-card combo to empty the Supply on turn 1 (with probability 11/24). Use Cavalry instead of Port.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2022, 12:55:57 am »
+2

The Province pileout with any $5 gainer + $6 action + $7 action instead of Livery is sort of cute too.

Indeed. :D I think you might be able to empty the whole supply if you also add Seaway (putting the +Buy token on Port) and a kingdom card costing $4+ that gives you the buy for it.

Actually, just adding Forum and a cost reducer like Bridge to the OP's kingdom suffices to empty the supply, as you can gain Forum and return it to the supply infinitely often for unlimited +Buys. So that's an 8-card combo to empty the supply on turn 1 (with probability 50%, as you need to draw at least 4 Coppers).

No. 6-card combo to empty the Supply on turn 1 (with probability 11/24). Use Cavalry instead of Port.

This one also doesn't require a correct implementation of Livery/City-state, so it can be done on dominion.games (#110411165), don't ask me why I clicked through all that.

There are some bad cases if you don't restrict the remainder of the kingdom somewhat, it either needs enough $4/$5/$6 piles or other stuff that can supplement payload. You won't always have enough money to empty the supply, like if City Quarter, Royal Blacksmith, Overlord, Golem, and Possession are the rest of the kingdom. (This is true of the cost reducer angles as well).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 12:57:13 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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majiponi

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2022, 10:09:37 am »
0

There are some bad cases if you don't restrict the remainder of the kingdom somewhat, it either needs enough $4/$5/$6 piles or other stuff that can supplement payload. You won't always have enough money to empty the supply, like if City Quarter, Royal Blacksmith, Overlord, Golem, and Possession are the rest of the kingdom. (This is true of the cost reducer angles as well).

Maybe we need Nomads.
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Holger

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2022, 01:36:32 pm »
0

The Province pileout with any $5 gainer + $6 action + $7 action instead of Livery is sort of cute too.

Indeed. :D I think you might be able to empty the whole supply if you also add Seaway (putting the +Buy token on Port) and a kingdom card costing $4+ that gives you the buy for it.

Actually, just adding Forum and a cost reducer like Bridge to the OP's kingdom suffices to empty the supply, as you can gain Forum and return it to the supply infinitely often for unlimited +Buys. So that's an 8-card combo to empty the supply on turn 1 (with probability 50%, as you need to draw at least 4 Coppers).

No. 6-card combo to empty the Supply on turn 1 (with probability 11/24). Use Cavalry instead of Port.

This one also doesn't require a correct implementation of Livery/City-state, so it can be done on dominion.games (#110411165), don't ask me why I clicked through all that.

(How) can I retrieve the game log given the game number?
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2022, 03:05:21 pm »
+1

(How) can I retrieve the game log given the game number?

Checking now, this game won't actually reload, there's an "internal error" bug when I try to do it, but in other cases:

You can't get a text log really, but if you have a subscription you can create a table, load old game, put in the game number and use Load from End.
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Holger

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2022, 04:57:54 pm »
0

(How) can I retrieve the game log given the game number?

Checking now, this game won't actually reload, there's an "internal error" bug when I try to do it, but in other cases:

You can't get a text log really, but if you have a subscription you can create a table, load old game, put in the game number and use Load from End.

I see, thanks for the info. I was wondering how you got started with Cavalry instead of Port, but I've now figured it out myself (buy Caravan, Butterfly into Guildmaster twice, assuming you have at least 5 Coppers among your first 7 cards).

If I've calculated correctly, buying all Estates, Provinces, Silvers and Importers and playing all basic Treasures leaves you with only $278-$230=$48, so there's many cases where you can't empty the supply without further support:
 - at least one 8 debt card or Possession is in the supply
 - a $7+ Action card is in the supply, but no $6 Action
 - Platinum/Colony
 - at least two $3 kingdom card other than Importer are in the supply (and no $2 Actions)
 - four or more $2-$3 kingdom cards other than Importer are in the supply
 - 2 or more Potion cost cards are in the supply

and a few other combinations.

But either of Bridge, another stackable cost reducer, Nomads or Training would take care of all cases except the last one. (With Bridge, you can use the whole $278 to buy the debt cards, except in the extremely unlikely case of all 4 pure debt cards being present.)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 05:38:37 pm by Holger »
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majiponi

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2022, 05:44:04 pm »
0

(How) can I retrieve the game log given the game number?

Checking now, this game won't actually reload, there's an "internal error" bug when I try to do it, but in other cases:

You can't get a text log really, but if you have a subscription you can create a table, load old game, put in the game number and use Load from End.

I see, thanks for the info. I was wondering how you got started with Cavalry instead of Port, but I've now figured it out myself (buy Caravan, Butterfly into Guildmaster twice, assuming you have at least 5 Coppers among your first 7 cards).

If I've calculated correctly, buying and (when possible) playing all basic cards and the four required kingdom card piles leaves you with only $278-$250=$28, so there's many cases where you can't empty the supply without further support:
 - at least one 8 debt card or $3P+ card is in the supply
 - a $7+ Action card is in the supply, but no $6 Action
 - Platinum/Colony
 - at least one $3 kingdom card other than Importer is in the supply (and no $2 Actions)
 - three or more $2-$3 kingdom cards other than Importer are in the supply
 - 2 or more Potion cost cards are in the supply

and a few other combinations.

But either of Bridge, another stackable cost reducer, Nomads or Training would take care of all cases except the last one. (With Bridge, you can use the whole $278 to buy the debt cards, except in the extremely unlikely case of all 4 pure debt cards being present.)

Almost correct.

 - a $7 card is in the supply, but no $6 Action

If King's Court, King's Court Guildmasters and Liveries.  Butterflies will let you play more.
If Expand, Expand 9 Cavalries.
If Bank, you can earn more.
If Peddler, buy for free.
If Prince... who wants to buy? The game ends in this turn.

Mandarin solves all problems.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 05:55:47 pm by majiponi »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2022, 01:52:52 pm »
0

(How) can I retrieve the game log given the game number?

Checking now, this game won't actually reload, there's an "internal error" bug when I try to do it, but in other cases:

You can't get a text log really, but if you have a subscription you can create a table, load old game, put in the game number and use Load from End.

I see, thanks for the info. I was wondering how you got started with Cavalry instead of Port, but I've now figured it out myself (buy Caravan, Butterfly into Guildmaster twice, assuming you have at least 5 Coppers among your first 7 cards).

If I've calculated correctly, buying all Estates, Provinces, Silvers and Importers and playing all basic Treasures leaves you with only $278-$230=$48, so there's many cases where you can't empty the supply without further support:
 - at least one 8 debt card or Possession is in the supply
 - a $7+ Action card is in the supply, but no $6 Action
 - Platinum/Colony
 - at least two $3 kingdom card other than Importer are in the supply (and no $2 Actions)
 - four or more $2-$3 kingdom cards other than Importer are in the supply
 - 2 or more Potion cost cards are in the supply

and a few other combinations.

But either of Bridge, another stackable cost reducer, Nomads or Training would take care of all cases except the last one. (With Bridge, you can use the whole $278 to buy the debt cards, except in the extremely unlikely case of all 4 pure debt cards being present.)

Overlord is fine actually since you only have to pay for 9 of them and they can give you $3 back, and the Potion part isn't correct (you could even have 3 and be fine if it's Vineyard / SP / Apo, it all just depends on the costs in coins). I didn't try to list it all because it's not clean.
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Holger

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2022, 05:22:00 pm »
0

(How) can I retrieve the game log given the game number?

Checking now, this game won't actually reload, there's an "internal error" bug when I try to do it, but in other cases:

You can't get a text log really, but if you have a subscription you can create a table, load old game, put in the game number and use Load from End.

I see, thanks for the info. I was wondering how you got started with Cavalry instead of Port, but I've now figured it out myself (buy Caravan, Butterfly into Guildmaster twice, assuming you have at least 5 Coppers among your first 7 cards).

If I've calculated correctly, buying all Estates, Provinces, Silvers and Importers and playing all basic Treasures leaves you with only $278-$230=$48, so there's many cases where you can't empty the supply without further support:
 - at least one 8 debt card or Possession is in the supply
 - a $7+ Action card is in the supply, but no $6 Action
 - Platinum/Colony
 - at least two $3 kingdom card other than Importer are in the supply (and no $2 Actions)
 - four or more $2-$3 kingdom cards other than Importer are in the supply
 - 2 or more Potion cost cards are in the supply

and a few other combinations.

But either of Bridge, another stackable cost reducer, Nomads or Training would take care of all cases except the last one. (With Bridge, you can use the whole $278 to buy the debt cards, except in the extremely unlikely case of all 4 pure debt cards being present.)

Overlord is fine actually since you only have to pay for 9 of them and they can give you $3 back, and the Potion part isn't correct (you could even have 3 and be fine if it's Vineyard / SP / Apo, it all just depends on the costs in coins). I didn't try to list it all because it's not clean.

How do you buy out 2 or more potion-cost piles (at least 18 cards, even if one of them is Vineyard) with only 16 Potions? There's no way to replay treasures in this kingdom AFAICS. Even if the potion-cost cards have consecutive $ costs, using Butterfly doesn't save you any potion - e.g. with SP and Apo., you need to buy SP 20 times to empty both piles (butterflying it 10 times), so you'd have to pay 20 P (and $40) total.

You're right about Overlord; playing each of them as a terminal gold gives you back $30, so they only cost you a net $72-$30=$42 (plus 8 debt that you never repay). It's fine as long as you don't have to pay extra for any other kingdom card.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2022, 12:25:44 am »
0

(How) can I retrieve the game log given the game number?

Checking now, this game won't actually reload, there's an "internal error" bug when I try to do it, but in other cases:

You can't get a text log really, but if you have a subscription you can create a table, load old game, put in the game number and use Load from End.

I see, thanks for the info. I was wondering how you got started with Cavalry instead of Port, but I've now figured it out myself (buy Caravan, Butterfly into Guildmaster twice, assuming you have at least 5 Coppers among your first 7 cards).

If I've calculated correctly, buying all Estates, Provinces, Silvers and Importers and playing all basic Treasures leaves you with only $278-$230=$48, so there's many cases where you can't empty the supply without further support:
 - at least one 8 debt card or Possession is in the supply
 - a $7+ Action card is in the supply, but no $6 Action
 - Platinum/Colony
 - at least two $3 kingdom card other than Importer are in the supply (and no $2 Actions)
 - four or more $2-$3 kingdom cards other than Importer are in the supply
 - 2 or more Potion cost cards are in the supply

and a few other combinations.

But either of Bridge, another stackable cost reducer, Nomads or Training would take care of all cases except the last one. (With Bridge, you can use the whole $278 to buy the debt cards, except in the extremely unlikely case of all 4 pure debt cards being present.)

Overlord is fine actually since you only have to pay for 9 of them and they can give you $3 back, and the Potion part isn't correct (you could even have 3 and be fine if it's Vineyard / SP / Apo, it all just depends on the costs in coins). I didn't try to list it all because it's not clean.

How do you buy out 2 or more potion-cost piles (at least 18 cards, even if one of them is Vineyard) with only 16 Potions? There's no way to replay treasures in this kingdom AFAICS. Even if the potion-cost cards have consecutive $ costs, using Butterfly doesn't save you any potion - e.g. with SP and Apo., you need to buy SP 20 times to empty both piles (butterflying it 10 times), so you'd have to pay 20 P (and $40) total.

You're right about Overlord; playing each of them as a terminal gold gives you back $30, so they only cost you a net $72-$30=$42 (plus 8 debt that you never repay). It's fine as long as you don't have to pay extra for any other kingdom card.

I'm just dumb and forgot the Potions were finite. Was just thinking "we can get as many Potions as we want from Horses".
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majiponi

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Re: Don't let your opponent do something.
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2022, 05:32:06 am »
+1

I was going to bring a game log from dominion.games, but it looks like Livery is bugged there with City-State.

I know that bug.  Maybe we need Berserker to do this crazy combo on dominion.games.
Now I am trying to invent 5-or-less card combo for 3 pile ending on turn 1.

I noticed we can empty 3 Supply piles without Livery.
See Game #110804566.

In this way, we can gain and play Livery to pile out everything unless there are many Debt cards or Potion-cost cards!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2022, 10:43:38 am by majiponi »
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