Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Inheritance + Garrison  (Read 1288 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1397
    • View Profile
Inheritance + Garrison
« on: September 30, 2022, 01:51:48 am »
0

My opponent bought Inheritance for Garrison and when playing estates they'd get $2 -- yet it seems no tokens are put on the set aside Garrison card from cards gained. Is that how it's meant to work?
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1397
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2022, 02:23:56 am »
0

I guess this rule clarification can cover the situation ("it's not in play, so you can't put any tokens on it"), though it seems arbitrary that being set aside is equivalent to being played from the supply for token purposes

Quote
"If you play Garrison with a card like Band of Misfits it's not in play, so you can't put any tokens on it"
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

Ingix

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 328
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +424
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2022, 03:57:30 am »
0

I think the key phrase is in the ruling, it is not in play in either situation. You put the tokens on the card for tracking purposes, and since they are the usual tokens also used for Coffers, Villagers and the Trade Route mat (may it rest in peace), having them "float around the playing area" could be confusing.
Logged

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1397
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2022, 05:40:12 am »
0

I'm not sure what's "floating around" here, the set aside garrison that's played is a discreet place to keep track of them, following the text that's simply on the card.

Yes the ruling specifies that because command cards like BoM don't put it in play [from the supply] it can't collect tokens, but it seems arbitrary that this also have been conceived for Inheritance which doesn't play from a shared supply, and I think by most players' reckoning would be collecting tokens w/o issue unless they noticed that rule's "not in play" text and that of course being set aside also is not in play. Oh well, if that's indeed the way it's meant to be then so it is, just seems unexpected and arbitrary to me that it have been intended to work this way.
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

Ingix

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 328
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +424
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2022, 12:09:44 pm »
0

I agree the problem is less for Inheritance, as it's only for one player. Still you could end up with tokens from different turns on it, if you can play things at start of turn.

Seems reasonable to not disallow it for practicallity.
Logged

Ingix

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 328
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +424
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2022, 12:45:04 pm »
0

I looked up some discussion with Donald X. where I asked about the Band of Misfit/Overlords situation, and the response mentioned specifically being out of play as the main reason, and the card not "finding" itself to put tokens on, as an extension to cards not moving themselves under similar circumstances (say an inherited Experiment).

While the practially would not be a problem for an inherited Garrison, not allowing it keeps it consistent from a rules perspective.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2022, 02:36:48 pm »
0

While I understand the reasons to not want tokens to be put on a Garrison that isn't in play (especially one that is still in the supply), I'm not understanding what rule causes that. Lose-track / stop-moving shouldn't come into play at all; unless that rule is getting errata to state that a card which is lost track of can't have tokens placed on it. I mean, the Garrison could have been shuffled back into your draw pile I suppose, at which point it's physically impossible to put a token on it.

A simple errata to fix it could be if Garrison itself just said "This turn, when you gain a card, add a token here if this is in play".
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1397
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2022, 11:20:33 am »
0

In the case of things like Experiment and Encampment, Inheritance and Prince both say "leaving it there" so that takes care of them not moving themselves; no need to invoke a notion of them not "finding themselves" from not being in play.

I can't swear to it but in the old versions of Inheritance/Prince I believe they *did* move themselves ? -- so, the notion that they couldn't possibly find themselves to move becomes even sillier, it's the "leaving it there" that keeps them set aside.
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1397
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2022, 12:45:29 pm »
0

A simple errata to fix it could be if Garrison itself just said "This turn, when you gain a card, add a token here if this is in play".
Something like this would be the best solution. It'll be clearest to all players and also the most balanced bc being the only player to buy Inheritance + Garrison is likely an 'i win' button for most boards
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

Ingix

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 328
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +424
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2022, 01:05:02 pm »
+2

In the case of things like Experiment and Encampment, Inheritance and Prince both say "leaving it there" so that takes care of them not moving themselves; no need to invoke a notion of them not "finding themselves" from not being in play.

In my opinion that is wrong. If you play a Workshop using Overlord, it can gain itself (and move to your discard pile). If you play a Graverobber or Rogue using Necromancer from the trash pile, it can also gain itself (and move).

"Leaving it there" takes care of exactly one thing: The card doesn't move into play. Everything else is a consequence of a card not finding itself.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2022, 01:36:48 pm »
+1

In the case of things like Experiment and Encampment, Inheritance and Prince both say "leaving it there" so that takes care of them not moving themselves; no need to invoke a notion of them not "finding themselves" from not being in play.

In my opinion that is wrong. If you play a Workshop using Overlord, it can gain itself (and move to your discard pile). If you play a Graverobber or Rogue using Necromancer from the trash pile, it can also gain itself (and move).

"Leaving it there" takes care of exactly one thing: The card doesn't move into play. Everything else is a consequence of a card not finding itself.

Correct, "leaving it there" simply means "instead of moving this to the in-play area when you play it like you normally would, don't move it to the in-play area". It doesn't mean "the card must stay there for the rest of the turn or current action".
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1397
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2022, 01:39:04 pm »
0

> . If you play a Workshop using Overlord, it can gain itself (and move to your discard pile). If you play a Graverobber or Rogue using Necromancer from the trash pile, it can also gain itself (and move).

This has nothing to do with anything I've said, but okay?

Fairly certain you are both wrong here. As I mentioned IIRC Experiment/Encampment did move themselves before the "leaving it there" text was added, so it seems clear to me that it's what's keeping things set aside. Prince's most recent change is what made it work with Horse for instance, so yeah.
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2022, 01:39:52 pm »
0

I can't swear to it but in the old versions of Inheritance/Prince I believe they *did* move themselves ? -- so, the notion that they couldn't possibly find themselves to move becomes even sillier, it's the "leaving it there" that keeps them set aside.

I'm not sure what you're saying in this part. That Prince moved itself, or that Prince caused the card it played to move itself? Old Prince moves itself exactly once, when it says to "set this aside". The card that gets played gets set aside by Prince each time it would have been discarded from play, which would fail if that card were no longer in play (like if you Prince a Feast).
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2022, 01:43:27 pm »
0

> . If you play a Workshop using Overlord, it can gain itself (and move to your discard pile). If you play a Graverobber or Rogue using Necromancer from the trash pile, it can also gain itself (and move).

This has nothing to do with anything I've said, but okay?


Sounded like you were saying that "leaving it there" prevented it from being moved; but seems like we both misinterpreted you on that part.

Quote
Fairly certain you are both wrong here. As I mentioned IIRC Experiment/Encampment did move themselves before the "leaving it there" text was added, so it seems clear to me that it's what's keeping things set aside. Prince's most recent change is what made it work with Horse for instance, so yeah.

What do you mean by Experiment moved itself? Do you mean if it were played with old Inheritance? Or if it were played with old Band of Misfits? In those cases no actual Experiment card was involved in playing "Experiment", you were only playing an Estate or Band of Misfits. If you mean new Inheritance, there wasn't ever a version that played the set-aside card but didn't say "leaving it there".

*Edit* I see from your last reply that you mean old Prince, not old Inheritance. So rather than a new reply: Old Prince played the card normally, so it was in-play. Experiment could return to its pile because it was in-play where it expected itself to be. New Prince prevents Experiment from being moved to in-play, so when Experiment gets to "return this to the supply", it looks for itself in the in-play area and can't find it, so it can't move.

So yes, "leaving it there" does indirectly prevent Experiment from being returned to its pile. But not because "leaving it there" means "don't move it anywhere". Because it means "don't move it into play", along with the fact that stop-moving rule says that if the card isn't in play, it can't be moved.

One more edit.. the point of the Workshop example was that if "leaving it there" prevented Experiment from being returned to the supply pile when it were played with new Prince, then why wouldn't "leaving it there" also prevent Workshop from being moved to your discard pile when Workshop was played with new Prince? The difference is that "gain a card" looks for the card in the supply, while "return this to the supply pile" looks for the card in the in-play area.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 01:49:58 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1397
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2022, 01:44:39 pm »
0

Before if you Princed a Horse (or Experiment/Encampment), the Horse would go back to its pile on the next turn. It doesn't now.
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1397
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2022, 02:12:27 pm »
+1

One more edit.. the point of the Workshop example was that if "leaving it there" prevented Experiment from being returned to the supply pile when it were played with new Prince, then why wouldn't "leaving it there" also prevent Workshop from being moved to your discard pile when Workshop was played with new Prince?
You mean with new Overlord/BoM, but yeah; I understand the point now.

So it's as you say, "leaving it there" is indirectly keeping things that are set aside from return to their piles (or being trashed), by not letting them enter play to begin with for those things to happen. Alright!
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2022, 07:24:50 am »
0

While I understand the reasons to not want tokens to be put on a Garrison that isn't in play (especially one that is still in the supply), I'm not understanding what rule causes that. Lose-track / stop-moving shouldn't come into play at all; unless that rule is getting errata to state that a card which is lost track of can't have tokens placed on it. I mean, the Garrison could have been shuffled back into your draw pile I suppose, at which point it's physically impossible to put a token on it.

A simple errata to fix it could be if Garrison itself just said "This turn, when you gain a card, add a token here if this is in play".

Right, there is nothing in the current lose-track/stop-moving rule that prevents tokens from being placed. I assume the Garrison rule is an extension of that rule, since similar logic applies. The fact is that the Garrison token rule is given in the rulebook only: "This can only have tokens on it if it's in play; if it leaves play, it has no tokens."

Without that rule, it's not clear what would happen if you Bonfire'd away the Garrison or you played a Garrison from supply or the trash. This rule also has to apply to an Inherited Garrison (since it's not in play), otherwise it would be inconsistent. But sure, ideally the rule would be stated on the card.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2022, 10:40:38 am »
0

While I understand the reasons to not want tokens to be put on a Garrison that isn't in play (especially one that is still in the supply), I'm not understanding what rule causes that. Lose-track / stop-moving shouldn't come into play at all; unless that rule is getting errata to state that a card which is lost track of can't have tokens placed on it. I mean, the Garrison could have been shuffled back into your draw pile I suppose, at which point it's physically impossible to put a token on it.

A simple errata to fix it could be if Garrison itself just said "This turn, when you gain a card, add a token here if this is in play".

Right, there is nothing in the current lose-track/stop-moving rule that prevents tokens from being placed. I assume the Garrison rule is an extension of that rule, since similar logic applies. The fact is that the Garrison token rule is given in the rulebook only: "This can only have tokens on it if it's in play; if it leaves play, it has no tokens."

Without that rule, it's not clear what would happen if you Bonfire'd away the Garrison or you played a Garrison from supply or the trash. This rule also has to apply to an Inherited Garrison (since it's not in play), otherwise it would be inconsistent. But sure, ideally the rule would be stated on the card.

I'm not fully clear on why Garrison only works if the tokens are physically on the card, but Haven and Cargo Ship work just fine even if it isn't in play. I guess it's just because "(under this)" / "(on this)" is in parenthesis? If those words were not in parenthesis, would you then say "I can't put a card from my hand under the Haven because it's been shuffled into my deck, thus I fail to set aside a card"?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Inheritance + Garrison
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2022, 11:01:22 am »
+1

I'm not fully clear on why Garrison only works if the tokens are physically on the card, but Haven and Cargo Ship work just fine even if it isn't in play. I guess it's just because "(under this)" / "(on this)" is in parenthesis? If those words were not in parenthesis, would you then say "I can't put a card from my hand under the Haven because it's been shuffled into my deck, thus I fail to set aside a card"?

I'm not saying that a general rule exists about tokens and putting things on cards in play. I was just referring to what Ingix reported about Donald's rationale.
The rule about tokens on Garrison is given in the rulebook and is about Garrison.
Interestingly though, someone who edits the wiki has written an of explanation for what you're asking, as if this were a general rule:

Quote from: Dominion Strategy Wiki
If you play Garrison with a card like Band of Misfits, it's not in play, so you can't put any tokens on it. In contrast, Haven and Cargo Ship can set aside a card even if they're not in play, because their "(on/under this)" wordings are only for player convenience.

Edit: And it's true of course: the cards you set aside with Haven etc. are not in play, while the Haven is, so technically they are not even in the same zone.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 04:31:08 am by Jeebus »
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 1.411 seconds with 21 queries.