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grrgrrgrr

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Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« on: September 18, 2022, 05:57:39 am »
+3

In this thread, I wanna share my ideas for errata hat could've been part of the 2022 errata. You may consider me obsessed, and maybe I am, but hey, why not share it nonetheless.

1. Throning Durations

My only idea that doesn't involve a specific card. The rule change is as follows.
Quote from: My Rule Changes
Replay tokens are introduced. Every time you play a card an extra time, put a Replay token onto the card. Throne Room (and all non-Duration variants) will always leave play at start of Clean-up.

From a balance standpoint, this change might be a little concerning, as KC+Caravan becomes much stronger, whereas the already strong KC+Wharf becomes borderline insufferable. Not to mention Throning Hireling or Prince becomes insanely good. But this change would eliminate pretty much all ongoing tracking issues that Throning currently has. It solves the Citadel issue. It solves Procession + Throne Room issue. It solves the Captain-throning a Duration issue. And so on. Plus it just creates much simplicity. I mean, isn't TR+TR+Duration still one of the most common rule questions?

On top of that, Replay tokens are purely secretary and it is completely up to the player how these are used. For instance, if you throne a Barge and only choose the next-turn effect once, you could forgo the replay token, making it look as if you only played Barge once.

2. Treasure Map


The card that is infamous for not having built-in accountability. Of course, this matters little in practice as you don't cheat period, and there is very little gained out of cheating on this, but it just feels strange that Donald X went for the extra mile with Throne Room and Moneylender, but not this one.

3. Messenger


The errata this got in 2022 makes this card rather clunky, as the effect doesn't work with Treasure gaining. And I also don't see why this shouldn't work with Workshops. If making this not work multiple times in a turn is the goal of the restriction, why not go for this route?

4. Black Market


What kinda bothers me about Black Market, is that the cards you gain out of Black Market don't have a pile. This makes the cards incompatible with Swap and Way of the Butterfly, and very strong with Way of the Horse. However, doesn't it make sense to have the Black Market deck itself as "its pile"? Here is an attempt to change that. After all, cards like Experiment and Encampment didn't get their rewording for nothing.

5. Masquerade


Masquerade, the Attack that isn't an Attack. It made sense in the original version, as there would be much unclarity on how it would work when Moat blocks it. However, after the 2016 errata, its text is one word away from having this case fully covered.

6. Circle of Witches


The original version was a little overfocussed on making Liaisons conditional Cursers, making the Ally incredibly clunky with Guildmaster. This version is wordier, as it also needed to take care of Import, but its interaction with cards that let you gain Favors over the course of the turn is much better (of course, forcing Actions to be in play can be annoying with the Treasure-Liaisons, but that condition is rather easy to meet).

7. Island Folk


Island Folk is easily the strongest Ally. What makes it so utterly ridiculous is the fact that you only need to gain 5 Favors over the course of 2 turns in order to activate it every time. With this change, you will have to gain the 5 favors in a singular turn for consistent activation. Of course, if the Island turn is exceptional, this can be frustrating, but c'est la vie.

8. Way of the Turtle


There are 3 Ways that pack the yet-to-be-solved problem of being able to create an invisible Duration effect in conjunction with Throne Room. With Way of the Turtle, this is rather easy to solve by making the effect trigger on discard (which won't happen with TR+Duration). For Horse and Butterfly, this could be solved by using the Acts mechanic (see http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20806.0)

9. Possession


The change I made is making cards not leave the deck when they are supposed to return to their pile.

It could be argued that Possession needs more errata. It could also be argued that the only way of fixing Possession is treating it like a Zelda CDi game (pretending it doesn't exist). But I think the ability to demolish an entire deck with Way of the Horse is still something that needs to be taking care of. With this change, Possession and Way of the Horse still interact very strongly, but no longer brokenly strong like it currently does.

10. Inheritance


"Inheritance no longer works this way! Get over it!"

The 2019 errata already brought some unwanted concessions, such as making the card desinteract with Reserves and Reactions, as well as becoming pretty insane with one-shots, especially Encampment. But Donald X has made some good efforts in regulating when a card can be played and when a card can leave play, making the issue of caring about the owner even less of an issue (although Throning inherited one-shots can now be even more confusing with the removal of the Loose Track rule). On the flipside, the post-errata effect now also makes the card work improperly with Recursion Durations. Inheriting types was also a huge plus of the old version.

This is ONLY about Inheritance. BoM and Overlord should absolutely NOT revert to their pre-errata versions.

What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 06:00:41 am by grrgrrgrr »
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muenstercheese

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2022, 03:21:26 pm »
+1

1. Replay tokens are a great idea, but what about cards that leave play, like wotHorse/wotButterfly Durations?

2. Pretty obvious and simple fix. Nice.

3. I like Messenger working on-gain. It's much nicer and the wording is simpler as a bonus.

4. Black Market "deck" -> "pile". Beautiful fix for self-returning cards, love it.

5. Nice use of the keyword, but I love Masq as the only non-Attack "attack". Cmon mate.

6, 7. I have't played with Allies enough to know how these change stuff well.

8. Nice anti-invisibility measure. I personally like invisible effects (rip Procession) but it's good to patch 'em up.

9. The fix for Possession is to pretend it never existed. Possession is in fact the only card that has gotten updated to explicitly reference a mechanic from an later expansion. An alternative card should be added instead—some sort of Command-from-hand card maybe?

10. I don't like basing it off of ownership. I would say "during your turns, all Estates..." instead. With the new Donate errata, there is no more between-turns stuff happening either that might mess with that.
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Udzu

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2022, 03:45:22 pm »
0

BM, Masquerade and Turtle all look good to me!

Treasure Map: making it fully optional does mean you can now safely eg Piazza it. One alternative would be “Trash this. You may trash a TM from your hand.”

Messenger: allowing it to be Workshopped might help rushes?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 03:47:42 pm by Udzu »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2022, 11:15:05 pm »
+2

My ideal fix for throning Durations would be to completely overhaul the way Durations work by having them always leave play the turn you play them and then giving you tokens to track any lingering effects. Of course this would completely unbalance everything, but it would also get rid of any and all tracking issues forever, and greatly simplify the rules.

A much more modest fix for Procession-Duration would be to have it trash the card when you discard it from play. This would destroy the neat ways to regain the card on the same turn, though.
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IlstrawberrySeed

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2022, 09:02:00 pm »
0

Possession still has problems with exile, villagers/coffers, self debt, and VP tokens.

At the end of your turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn, during which you see what they see and make their choices for them, and any tokens they have are replaced by your token pools. Any cards that would be trashed, exiled, or returned to the supply are set aside and discarded at the end of turn. Cards exiled from the supply are instead returned at the end of turn. Any cards discarded from exile are exiled at the end of turn.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2022, 11:22:29 pm »
0

My ideal fix for throning Durations would be to completely overhaul the way Durations work by having them always leave play the turn you play them and then giving you tokens to track any lingering effects. Of course this would completely unbalance everything, but it would also get rid of any and all tracking issues forever, and greatly simplify the rules.

A much more modest fix for Procession-Duration would be to have it trash the card when you discard it from play. This would destroy the neat ways to regain the card on the same turn, though.

It could work if you decouple the gaining and the trashing.

Procession
Action - $4
You may play an Action from your hand twice, trashing it when you discard it from play.  Gain an Action costing $1 more than it.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 11:29:53 pm by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2022, 07:35:45 am »
0


10. I don't like basing it off of ownership. I would say "during your turns, all Estates..." instead. With the new Donate errata, there is no more between-turns stuff happening either that might mess with that.

That doesn't work with durations played outside your turn like Village Green and Caravan Guard. If your opponent inherited Caravan Guard and played an attack, you could play an Estate (as Caravan Guard) to react to it. But what does that mean when it's your turn if you inherited a different card, or haven't bought inheritance yet? It's a tracking issue.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2022, 08:17:46 am »
+1

Working on fan 3rd editions, mostly compiling fan cards I like.

I'd keep most of these except for Possession (I don't think it's fixable) and Inheritance. I miss old Inheritance too, but "yours" seems too tricky.

In general I'd use the Donald X way of "replacing" cards - creating a completely new card with some of the effects of the old one.

Other errata I'd make though, most of which I posted in the "revisions to published cards" thread:

Wishing Well. Sea Chart, Patrician, Vagrant, Magpie, Will-o-Wisp - Changed to be like Sorceress, so they interact with the top card of your deck, not the 2nd top. You reveal the card and put it into your hand, and if it meets the criteria, the reward is +1 card. (Herald and Ironmonger are left alone due to the clunkiness of the alternatives)
Patrol - Scout effect happens first, then the +3 Cards, so even playing just 1 Patrol is meaningful (arbitrarily reordering cards sucks)
Charlatan - You set aside a Curse for the rest of the game. If you did, gain a Copper. (so other cursers are still relevant when it's on the board)
Catacombs - No longer has "Choose one" in the words to remove a weird interaction with Elder
Procession - As posted earlier. You gain the card costing $1 more after Throning the card, but trash the card you thrones when you discard it from play. Works with Durations again.
Counterfeit - Still works with Durations, and trashing happens on discard
Crypt - Still works with Durations, setting aside happens on discard
Bonfire -  "During clean up this turn, you may trash up to 2 cards you discard from play"
Research - Uses tokens like Garrison instead of set aside cards
Courier - "If it isn't empty, discard the top card of your deck". I never liked the dynamic of shuffling your deck so you can discard a card from it so your card doesn't work as well.
Lich - You can't skip more than one turn - "+6 cards, +2 Actions, skip the turn after this one".
All Extra Turn cards - Now subject to the "extra turns rule", you can't take any more than one extra turn after your first. This simplifies the wording on a lot of cards. They all lose "if the previous turn wasn't yours", and Outpost loses the "one per turn".
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 08:39:56 am by NoMoreFun »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2022, 09:36:32 am »
+1

Sadly, other cursers are still very much relevant when Charlatan is on the board. At the very least, Sea Witch is still stronger than Charlatan even when it gives out Treasure Curses.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2022, 03:41:38 pm »
0

My ideal fix for throning Durations would be to completely overhaul the way Durations work by having them always leave play the turn you play them and then giving you tokens to track any lingering effects. Of course this would completely unbalance everything, but it would also get rid of any and all tracking issues forever, and greatly simplify the rules.

This is a cool idea. It'd obviously require each Duration pile to come with 10 tokens (which may not even be enough with TR variants and Command cards). An alternative is to have whole bunch of Duration tokens, that have a different color for each player. When a player plays a Duration, they will move a Duration token to the card's pile. I guess Seaside would've been the expansion to facilitate the tokens, and non-Seaside owners have to get tokens from other games (such as Ticket to Ride). This would indeed remove the need to mention non-Duration in pretty much any instance. But obviously, all Durations would have to be redesigned, except Highwayman.


Working on fan 3rd editions, mostly compiling fan cards I like.

I'd keep most of these except for Possession (I don't think it's fixable) and Inheritance. I miss old Inheritance too, but "yours" seems too tricky.

In general I'd use the Donald X way of "replacing" cards - creating a completely new card with some of the effects of the old one.

Other errata I'd make though, most of which I posted in the "revisions to published cards" thread:

Wishing Well. Sea Chart, Patrician, Vagrant, Magpie, Will-o-Wisp - Changed to be like Sorceress, so they interact with the top card of your deck, not the 2nd top. You reveal the card and put it into your hand, and if it meets the criteria, the reward is +1 card. (Herald and Ironmonger are left alone due to the clunkiness of the alternatives)
Patrol - Scout effect happens first, then the +3 Cards, so even playing just 1 Patrol is meaningful (arbitrarily reordering cards sucks)
Charlatan - You set aside a Curse for the rest of the game. If you did, gain a Copper. (so other cursers are still relevant when it's on the board)
Catacombs - No longer has "Choose one" in the words to remove a weird interaction with Elder
Procession - As posted earlier. You gain the card costing $1 more after Throning the card, but trash the card you thrones when you discard it from play. Works with Durations again.
Counterfeit - Still works with Durations, and trashing happens on discard
Crypt - Still works with Durations, setting aside happens on discard
Bonfire -  "During clean up this turn, you may trash up to 2 cards you discard from play"
Research - Uses tokens like Garrison instead of set aside cards
Courier - "If it isn't empty, discard the top card of your deck". I never liked the dynamic of shuffling your deck so you can discard a card from it so your card doesn't work as well.
Lich - You can't skip more than one turn - "+6 cards, +2 Actions, skip the turn after this one".
All Extra Turn cards - Now subject to the "extra turns rule", you can't take any more than one extra turn after your first. This simplifies the wording on a lot of cards. They all lose "if the previous turn wasn't yours", and Outpost loses the "one per turn".

Agreed with most of them, except:
Wishing Well: Disagee with this particular one. Without topdecking (which is still the vast majority of time), you make a guess based on what you want and what is still in the deck. This works better if you draw a card before making the guess.
Patrol In a green-free deck, this essentially becomes "Look at the top 4 cards. Put three of them into your hand and topdeck the other". Is that what you want? Not sure about it.
Procession This means procession no longer works with on-trash effects, one of DA's defining features. In addition, Donald X also said there should be nothing of interest happening during the Clean-up phase, except the start. This is also why Donate got errata. Also, what is your stance on my first suggestion? I'm curious!
Crypt I must see your final version on this before I can make a judgement on this. Sounds like it's going to be wordy and impractical. Better to just not allow cards that aren't going to be discarded from play this turn.

10. I don't like basing it off of ownership. I would say "during your turns, all Estates..." instead. With the new Donate errata, there is no more between-turns stuff happening either that might mess with that.
I actually suggested this one to Donald X in the 2019 errata thread, and he had a very valid reason not to go for this version. It would not work with inherited Moats and inherited Duplicates during the opponent's turn, which would be counter-intuitive.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 03:48:24 pm by grrgrrgrr »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2022, 09:30:47 pm »
0

A much more modest fix for Procession-Duration would be to have it trash the card when you discard it from play. This would destroy the neat ways to regain the card on the same turn, though.

It could work if you decouple the gaining and the trashing.

Procession
Action - $4
You may play an Action from your hand twice, trashing it when you discard it from play.  Gain an Action costing $1 more than it.

I was talking about gaining the processed card back from the trash in the same turn, e.g. with Lurker or Graverobber. With this version, that's not possible, and if Lurker and Graverobber are in fact in the kingdom, it means your opponent can immediately grab the cards you processed on their turn. And as grrgrrgrr pointed out, you don't get the on-trash bonuses in the middle of your turn, either. This particularly makes a rather sad interaction with Fortress. So yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think this "fix" kinda sucks.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 09:33:11 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Holger

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2022, 11:14:35 am »
+1

Sadly, other cursers are still very much relevant when Charlatan is on the board. At the very least, Sea Witch is still stronger than Charlatan even when it gives out Treasure Curses.

Why "sadly"? I haven't played with Charlatan yet, but in principle it sounds like good design to me if one curser doesn't automatically dominate all others.
Do you think that Sea Witch is too strong, or that Charlatan is too weak, if Charlatan's nerfing of other cursers still doesn't make it superior to them in games with several cursers?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 11:31:49 am by Holger »
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Erick648

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2022, 12:02:42 am »
+1

Black Market
$3 - Action
+$2
You may buy an Event from the Black Market deck once this turn.  If you do, +1 Buy.

Setup: Make a Black Market deck out of 5 unused Events.  (You may look through the Black Market deck at any time.)

Note: If you play multiple Black Markets, you may buy the same Event multiple times (unless the Event is once per turn/game) and/or buy multiple different Events.

I've been using this for a while in my IRL games, since using Events makes setting up and putting away the game so much easier.  It also eliminates the randomness and asymmetry of Black Market (the two largest complaints).  The simplified wording (borrowed from Donald X) does remove playing Treasures in the Action phase, but there are other ways to do that now so we don't really need Black Market for that novelty.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 12:04:57 am by Erick648 »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2022, 03:06:16 pm »
+2

It also eliminates the randomness and asymmetry of Black Market (the two largest complaints things that make it fun).

Fixed that for you.
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Holger

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2022, 09:38:55 am »
+1

Possession still has problems with exile, villagers/coffers, self debt, and VP tokens.

At the end of your turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn, during which you see what they see and make their choices for them, and any tokens they have are replaced by your token pools. Any cards that would be trashed, exiled, or returned to the supply are set aside and discarded at the end of turn. Cards exiled from the supply are instead returned at the end of turn. Any cards discarded from exile are exiled at the end of turn.

For online Dominion, the most elegant fix imo would be just to return the possessed player's deck, discard pile, hand, play area, tokens etc. to the exact state at which they were before the extra turn (except that the deck is re-randomized). So Possession stops being hurtful to the possessed player in any way, while keeping its "intended" functionality.

But for real-life play it would often be very tedious to reset the deck to its previous state.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2022, 07:52:26 am »
0

Black Market
$3 - Action
+$2
You may buy an Event from the Black Market deck once this turn.  If you do, +1 Buy.

Setup: Make a Black Market deck out of 5 unused Events.  (You may look through the Black Market deck at any time.)

Note: If you play multiple Black Markets, you may buy the same Event multiple times (unless the Event is once per turn/game) and/or buy multiple different Events.

I've been using this for a while in my IRL games, since using Events makes setting up and putting away the game so much easier.  It also eliminates the randomness and asymmetry of Black Market (the two largest complaints).  The simplified wording (borrowed from Donald X) does remove playing Treasures in the Action phase, but there are other ways to do that now so we don't really need Black Market for that novelty.

Well, this is obviously just an idea for different card, rather than BM errata. It is interesting, for sure. Since the Plunder expansions uses Events, maybe we get to see something like that there.

Possession still has problems with exile, villagers/coffers, self debt, and VP tokens.

At the end of your turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn, during which you see what they see and make their choices for them, and any tokens they have are replaced by your token pools. Any cards that would be trashed, exiled, or returned to the supply are set aside and discarded at the end of turn. Cards exiled from the supply are instead returned at the end of turn. Any cards discarded from exile are exiled at the end of turn.

For online Dominion, the most elegant fix imo would be just to return the possessed player's deck, discard pile, hand, play area, tokens etc. to the exact state at which they were before the extra turn (except that the deck is re-randomized). So Possession stops being hurtful to the possessed player in any way, while keeping its "intended" functionality.

But for real-life play it would often be very tedious to reset the deck to its previous state.

This is actually something that Possession aims to do already, but it is just very hard to formulate this in a future proof way. I mean, Masquerade is also a thing. And I think returning to the pile is the thing that needs to be fixed most urgently, to make Way of the Horse not completely degenerate. (it is also a universal mechanic).

They could also end with "any cards of theirs that moves anywhere aside from their hand, deck, discard or play area are set aside and put in their discard pile at the end of turn", although that interacts weirdly with Masquerade and Reserves, and could open another can of worms.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2022, 11:18:38 am »
+2

I think the Town Crier pile wasn't very well executed. As a replacement to the Town Crier pile, it'd be more interesting if we got the following Ally:



Town Crier itself would be a standalone pile consisting of 10 cards, that could be exclusively used as an extra pile for this card. Its price would be bumped up to $3.
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Holger

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2022, 08:08:45 am »
0

Possession still has problems with exile, villagers/coffers, self debt, and VP tokens.

At the end of your turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn, during which you see what they see and make their choices for them, and any tokens they have are replaced by your token pools. Any cards that would be trashed, exiled, or returned to the supply are set aside and discarded at the end of turn. Cards exiled from the supply are instead returned at the end of turn. Any cards discarded from exile are exiled at the end of turn.

For online Dominion, the most elegant fix imo would be just to return the possessed player's deck, discard pile, hand, play area, tokens etc. to the exact state at which they were before the extra turn (except that the deck is re-randomized). So Possession stops being hurtful to the possessed player in any way, while keeping its "intended" functionality.

But for real-life play it would often be very tedious to reset the deck to its previous state.

This is actually something that Possession aims to do already, but it is just very hard to formulate this in a future proof way. I mean, Masquerade is also a thing. And I think returning to the pile is the thing that needs to be fixed most urgently, to make Way of the Horse not completely degenerate. (it is also a universal mechanic).

They could also end with "any cards of theirs that moves anywhere aside from their hand, deck, discard or play area are set aside and put in their discard pile at the end of turn", although that interacts weirdly with Masquerade and Reserves, and could open another can of worms.

Possession aims to do that, but it still falls short of that aim despite many errara, mainly w.r.t. deck ordering and removing cards from the deck other than by trashing (including "return to supply" and passing with Masquerade). My suggested fix could literally be worded as "At the end of that turn, the possessed player's deck, discard pile, hand and everything else belonging to them are returned to the exact state at which they were before the extra turn, with the deck reshuffled."
So the "formerly possessed" player gets to play with the same hand they drew before the Possession turn, and any cards or tokens they lost during that turn are returned to them.

I don't see an obvious "future-proofing" problem with that; and anyway you could always make new errata should future mechanics make it necessary. It would also work with Masquerade; the passed card remains in the other player's deck despite also returning to the possessed player's deck - if there's no copy of that card left in the supply, the online server can just create a virtual extra copy of that card.
(For IRL play, I would just not allow Possession and Masquerade to be in the same kingdom, or forbid Masquerade from being played on Possession turns.)
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IlstrawberrySeed

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2022, 05:30:59 pm »
0

They could also end with "any cards of theirs that moves anywhere aside from their hand, deck, discard or play area are set aside and put in their discard pile at the end of turn", although that interacts weirdly with Masquerade and Reserves, and could open another can of worms.

Possession aims to do that, but it still falls short of that aim despite many errara, mainly w.r.t. deck ordering and removing cards from the deck other than by trashing (including "return to supply" and passing with Masquerade). My suggested fix could literally be worded as "At the end of that turn, the possessed player's deck, discard pile, hand and everything else belonging to them are returned to the exact state at which they were before the extra turn, with the deck reshuffled."
So the "formerly possessed" player gets to play with the same hand they drew before the Possession turn, and any cards or tokens they lost during that turn are returned to them.

I don't see an obvious "future-proofing" problem with that; and anyway you could always make new errata should future mechanics make it necessary. It would also work with Masquerade; the passed card remains in the other player's deck despite also returning to the possessed player's deck - if there's no copy of that card left in the supply, the online server can just create a virtual extra copy of that card.
(For IRL play, I would just not allow Possession and Masquerade to be in the same kingdom, or forbid Masquerade from being played on Possession turns.)

After this turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, where any tokens acquired are aquifer by you, you see what they see, and make their choices for them. Any cards that would be removed from their ownership are set aside and discarded during cleanup, and all tokens are moved to the place at the start of the turn, all reserves called are returned to the tavern mat instead of being discarded, and all flippers are returned to it’s starting side.

Keywords:
Acquired: The act of gaining ownership over a card, token, or landscape, such as taking debt, taking a state, gaining a card, exiling a card from the supply, being passed a card from another player, or exchanging one card for another.
Flippers: anything that stores info by flipping, such as the journey token or Miserable/Twice Miserable.

As far as I am aware, this can only mess with order, play permanent durations with thrones or bad targets, put cards from deck onto their mats/remove from mats, and get rid of greed/???? from hexes. Exiling/Islanding might be a problem, but it isn’t terribly wordy, includes only 2 new words, and takes care of most interactions, including minor ones like flipping the journey token face up (bad) or face down(good), and stops from flipping to twice miserable(cursed village is the only way barring WotM if I remember correctly.)
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2022, 05:13:02 pm »
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They could also end with "any cards of theirs that moves anywhere aside from their hand, deck, discard or play area are set aside and put in their discard pile at the end of turn", although that interacts weirdly with Masquerade and Reserves, and could open another can of worms.

Possession aims to do that, but it still falls short of that aim despite many errara, mainly w.r.t. deck ordering and removing cards from the deck other than by trashing (including "return to supply" and passing with Masquerade). My suggested fix could literally be worded as "At the end of that turn, the possessed player's deck, discard pile, hand and everything else belonging to them are returned to the exact state at which they were before the extra turn, with the deck reshuffled."
So the "formerly possessed" player gets to play with the same hand they drew before the Possession turn, and any cards or tokens they lost during that turn are returned to them.

I don't see an obvious "future-proofing" problem with that; and anyway you could always make new errata should future mechanics make it necessary. It would also work with Masquerade; the passed card remains in the other player's deck despite also returning to the possessed player's deck - if there's no copy of that card left in the supply, the online server can just create a virtual extra copy of that card.
(For IRL play, I would just not allow Possession and Masquerade to be in the same kingdom, or forbid Masquerade from being played on Possession turns.)

After this turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, where any tokens acquired are aquifer by you, you see what they see, and make their choices for them. Any cards that would be removed from their ownership are set aside and discarded during cleanup, and all tokens are moved to the place at the start of the turn, all reserves called are returned to the tavern mat instead of being discarded, and all flippers are returned to it’s starting side.

Keywords:
Acquired: The act of gaining ownership over a card, token, or landscape, such as taking debt, taking a state, gaining a card, exiling a card from the supply, being passed a card from another player, or exchanging one card for another.
Flippers: anything that stores info by flipping, such as the journey token or Miserable/Twice Miserable.

As far as I am aware, this can only mess with order, play permanent durations with thrones or bad targets, put cards from deck onto their mats/remove from mats, and get rid of greed/???? from hexes. Exiling/Islanding might be a problem, but it isn’t terribly wordy, includes only 2 new words, and takes care of most interactions, including minor ones like flipping the journey token face up (bad) or face down(good), and stops from flipping to twice miserable(cursed village is the only way barring WotM if I remember correctly.)

In offline play, I think it's preferable if you can go for an approach that doesn't mandate remembering the starting state, and flippers are also rather specific and non-problematic. I do like the approach for cards that leave the deck. I'd go for the following:

Quote
After this turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, where you see what they see, and make their choices for them. Any cards that they would gain are moved to your discard pile. Any cards that would cease to be theirs are set aside and moved to their discard pile at the start of clean-up. Directly before and after the turn, both players exchange their collectible tokens. At the start of clean-up, they put their deck onto their discard pile.
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IlstrawberrySeed

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Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2022, 06:19:57 pm »
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Since you removed flippable, with “puts them in their discard pile, along with their deck,” leaves space for “when they exile a card, they may choose (not you) to trash it.”
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