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Author Topic: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold  (Read 37892 times)

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Varsinor

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2012, 08:42:30 am »
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I'm not sure, but I think Saboteur would only be a good counter to FG in the situations where Saboteur would be good anyway, e.g. you have a way to consistently play it often.

It is certainly even better then, but I'd say it is also strong in many games against FG if it wouldn't be against another deck. Downgrading a Province into a Duchy or a Duchy into an Estate (almost) for certain every time you play a Saboteur is a pretty huge deal. And one or two Saboteurs usually don't hinder your own ability to buy Provinces too much - after all, you had some time to build up your deck while your opponent was buying all those Fool's Golds.

Throw in a Throne Room or some moderate cycling with a Warehouse or a Cellar (both of which wouldn't be sufficient to make Saboteur worthwhile in your "average" game) to be able to play your Saboteur more often and that can hurt the Fool's Gold deck a lot. (I won't even begin to talk of Golems or King's Courts.)

Unless, of course, he had enough time to buy other stuff except green cards that cost above $2 and keep the Saboteur from hitting green often enough.

I think in your "average" game, you need a way to consistently play a Saboteur at least once per turn to make it strong - better more often. Against Fool's Gold, much less seems to be sufficient.
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jomini

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2012, 09:53:50 am »
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The big defense against sab decks with FG is written right on the card - turn your FGs into golds. Unless you gun for sab out the door or don't buy provinces till very late, I'm going to be able to get golds into my deck. Yeah you don't do it when it will cost you a province, but late game with singleton FG hanging around? Sure.

Further FG games are pretty easy to pile out against sab before you can do much - FG itself will be an empty pile, duchies can be bought for 2 FG, and estates are even easier. I just don't see how you hope to buy provinces (letting me get ablative sab armor), and get enough VP to stop me from piling out on you.
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jotheonah

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2012, 11:55:29 am »
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Alterna-VP rushes can often take precedence, like they so often do.  Silk Roads, Gardens, and Vineyards games don't really want to bother with FG.  I suspect Silver might even be better than FG for Duke games, due to the high probability they'll show up singly in the long greening stage.

Also, in alternate VP games where no one is buying Provinces, you never have a chance to use the reaction effect. That's another reason why FG isn't as good in Colony games. Unless Tournament is floating around, you're unlikely to get many chances to turn them into Gold as you green
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2012, 12:36:06 pm »
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As for Chapel, I think it has its place, but its all in the timing. Opening Chapel seems like a bad idea, as you're slowing down your rate of FG acquisition. OTOH, I think that if there's time a late Chapel might be worthwhile to bring your FGs closer together. I might be wrong though.
The problem with Chapel late is that you're going to have a hard time drawing it with 3-4 cards you want to trash, so it becomes a pretty inefficient trasher, particularly if you're taking turns to do it while your opponent is buying VP cards.
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Razzishi

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2012, 06:51:50 pm »
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Remodel seems to me to become a very worthwhile opener in games with FG.  Usually spending an early turn Remodeling is going to significantly slow your progress towards getting $5+ cards, but when the cards you want to get a lot of cost $2, Remodel is very attractive. 

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120410-151817-040df141.html

While I wasn't able to beat Mint/FG with my Remodel/FG opener, I put up a pretty decent fight with 4 Provinces in 13 turns.  He did miss a shuffle with his Mint, but he also had Adventurer available which worked quite well in his deck with only 2 Coppers.  I don't think it was a mistake getting the penultimate Province when I did knowing that he was going to have a Gold in his next hand and his previous hand was worthless as I couldn't do anything else useful; the PPR only applies when you can buy a smaller VP card that puts you in the lead. 
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Fabian

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2012, 07:34:36 pm »
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Remodel/FG is definitely a very good opening, generally speaking.

PPR definitely doesn't just apply when you can put yourself in the lead with a Duchy/whatever. Sometimes when you're behind you have to buy it and hope to get lucky, sure, but the consideration is still there for sure.
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DG

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2012, 08:44:46 pm »
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I notice that you remodelled the copper to fool's gold rather than estates to fool's gold. The latter is probably better.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2012, 12:42:19 pm »
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I notice that you remodelled the copper to fool's gold rather than estates to fool's gold. The latter is probably better.

I probably would have done the same thing. There is a mode of thought where you want to maximize your numbers. That mode says that trading a 0-cost card for a 2-cost card is more efficient than trading a 2-cost card for a different 2-cost card. And that's true if the goal is to have the highest-cost cards in your deck.

Obviously, that's not true in Dominion. I can't say that I wouldn't have overlooked that too. It's similar to the, "You don't have to spend all the money that you can on your Buy," rule.
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dondon151

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2012, 12:47:13 pm »
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If you're going for Adventurer or Venture, changing Coppers to FGs may be a good idea.
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Kuraku256

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2012, 04:29:16 pm »
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While reading this thread I had an unusual thought, "Would this work well with herbalist?"
The ability to stack your FG back on top of your deck should help them collide and it has +Buy, even the fact that it's only a terminal copper should be less of an issue than normal since you only need to hit $4 to pick up 2 FG. All that said, I imagine the cards mentioned in the original post are better.
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AJD

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2012, 04:42:51 pm »
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Herbalist helped me out with Fool's Gold apparently a great deal in <a href="http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120328-060727-74553088.html">this game</a>: it looks like there were three turns when I Herbalized a Fool's Gold and by doing so got FGs paired on turns when they wouldn't have lined up otherwise.
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Asklepios

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2012, 08:16:56 pm »
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Herbalist helped me out with Fool's Gold apparently a great deal in <a href="http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120328-060727-74553088.html">this game</a>: it looks like there were three turns when I Herbalized a Fool's Gold and by doing so got FGs paired on turns when they wouldn't have lined up otherwise.

Makes sense, though obviously the herbalist isn't something to buy until the Fool's Golds are all gone, as you showed here.

Though if it were the only +buy maybe herbalist to open would help win the FG race...?
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jonts26

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2012, 08:31:48 pm »
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Here's a game where my herbalist/FG opening pays off.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120328-225924-71c68484.html
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jomini

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2012, 09:40:18 am »
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Herbalist helped me out with Fool's Gold apparently a great deal in <a href="http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120328-060727-74553088.html">this game</a>: it looks like there were three turns when I Herbalized a Fool's Gold and by doing so got FGs paired on turns when they wouldn't have lined up otherwise.

Makes sense, though obviously the herbalist isn't something to buy until the Fool's Golds are all gone, as you showed here.

Though if it were the only +buy maybe herbalist to open would help win the FG race...?

I don't think herbalist will help you win the FG race all the much. Unlike nomad camp, you don't get to see it until T3 at the earliest and T5 is the soonest you will get to see it again. So at best you are down a FG until T3 (when you reach parity with a simple FG player) and might be able to pull ahead in T5. Even with optimal shuffle luck here, a second player opening herbalist will virtually never win the FG rush. Even as first player, the odds are very much against herbalist winning the split in your favor; you have better than even odds of playing herbalist exactly once by the end of T5. Even that isn't assured as you have much higher odds of getting stuck at 3 coin with herablist. For woodcutters, nomad camp, etc. to get stuck at 3 coin you have to hit 3 estates that hand, with herbalist you are out of luck if you hit it with just two.

So not having run the numbers fully, it looks to me like herbalist, at best will let you reach parity on the FG race with the next most likely outcome being to lose the FG race against a simple FG buyer. 

This isn't to say that herbalist is a bad buy in a FG game, the ability to use a FG multiple times per shuffle and line them up more frequently is quite good (particularly for the cost); however I would tend to buy other sources of +buy first - baron is an assured double FG buy whenever you play it (though there is a low odds chance you will have to eat an estate for the privilege), Nomad Camp and woodcutters are less likely to lose a double FG hand, and even pawn has some better dynamics (with 4cp you can go buy + card to cycle more and get 2fg, with 3ecp you can go coin and a card to cycle) for winning the FG race.
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popsofctown

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2012, 10:46:17 am »
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Since this frontpaged, I had a comment.  There are times you want Fool's Gold in an engine, mostly probably involving King's Court or at least another very powerful engine.  If you make a very lean deck and get all the engine pieces together, but then don't actually have that much money in your deck, you can acquire Fool's Golds as the last engine piece, a source of coin, very cheaply. 
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DStu

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2012, 10:52:09 am »
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Since this frontpaged, I had a comment.  There are times you want Fool's Gold in an engine, mostly probably involving King's Court or at least another very powerful engine.  If you make a very lean deck and get all the engine pieces together, but then don't actually have that much money in your deck, you can acquire Fool's Golds as the last engine piece, a source of coin, very cheaply.
I also wanted to comment something like that, but in some sense the article also says it.  You would want FG in engines, but you can't guarantee that there are some left when youbuilt it. So you better don't buy an engine that wants FGs.  When you have built one, and there for some reason are FGs left (more than 2), you will often happily take them, but chances are high that you are too late.
And for KC-engines, getting $4 out of a card is usually pretty weak. You often have KC to play left once the engine kicks into gear, and then even a KCed Chancellor gives $6.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2012, 11:24:13 am »
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I have used FG in an engine a few times. Of course you can only really do it when the other player doesn't rush the FGs, but this can happen for several reasons (likely  a combination of 2-3 of the following):
1. Colony/other Alt VP game. If you go straight FGs, you'll have a hard time ending the game, as the green stuffs your deck enough that it's hard to line up the FGs
2. Strong attacks. If the attacks (Ambassador, for example) can make it hard to buy Provinces of just FGs, it's going to be slow enough that the engine will have an advantage.
3. The +buy is not that convenient for FG rushing. Grand Market, for example, you can't get quick enough to really help you get FGs.
4. Really strong trashing. With Chapel or Remake, building an engine isn't actually slow.
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jomini

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2012, 01:12:39 am »
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Another shot that can work nicely for an engine is just stealing the Fg. Thief is an option, though not a strong one without Kc or such, but a stronger one is discard/masq. Something like Ghost ship/Masq can put a Fg player into the uncomfortable bind of having to either hand over a Fg (they keep 3 Fg in hand) or never buy a province again (they keep 2Fg and something else). Ghost ship is truly vicious here as they will eventually have to hand over VP or Fg.

A rabble/masq engine can also make it extremely hard for a Fg player to keep both their VP and their Fg.

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Varsinor

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2012, 07:23:33 am »
+2

but a stronger one is discard/masq. Something like Ghost ship/Masq can put a Fg player into the uncomfortable bind of having to either hand over a Fg (they keep 3 Fg in hand) or never buy a province again (they keep 2Fg and something else). Ghost ship is truly vicious here as they will eventually have to hand over VP or Fg.

A rabble/masq engine can also make it extremely hard for a Fg player to keep both their VP and their Fg.

It seems to me that the fact that Discard-Masquerade and Rabble-Masquerade are very strong doesn't have much to do with Fool's Gold. Almost any deck will have an extremely hard time against someone who can play Discard-Masquerade consistently. (Except maybe decks based on "draw-up-to-cards like Library or Watchtower.)
That goes especially for "Something like Ghost ship/Masq can put a Fg player into the uncomfortable bind" - Ghost Ship-Masquerade simply is one of the meanest combos out there.
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2012, 11:17:41 am »
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I mentioned this on the frontpage comments as well, but I was surprised not to see Horse Traders on the list. It won't hold a candle to  Council Room or Wharf, but it's competitive with Remodel and Spice Merchant.
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werothegreat

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2012, 11:19:14 am »
+1

Stables is awesome with Fool's Gold.  Without trashing, Stable away the Coppers and fill your hand with FG.  With trashing, you can can Stable the FG's without hesitation, knowing you'll draw them later in your turn.
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jomini

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2012, 01:32:42 pm »
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but a stronger one is discard/masq. Something like Ghost ship/Masq can put a Fg player into the uncomfortable bind of having to either hand over a Fg (they keep 3 Fg in hand) or never buy a province again (they keep 2Fg and something else). Ghost ship is truly vicious here as they will eventually have to hand over VP or Fg.

A rabble/masq engine can also make it extremely hard for a Fg player to keep both their VP and their Fg.

It seems to me that the fact that Discard-Masquerade and Rabble-Masquerade are very strong doesn't have much to do with Fool's Gold. Almost any deck will have an extremely hard time against someone who can play Discard-Masquerade consistently. (Except maybe decks based on "draw-up-to-cards like Library or Watchtower.)
That goes especially for "Something like Ghost ship/Masq can put a Fg player into the uncomfortable bind" - Ghost Ship-Masquerade simply is one of the meanest combos out there.

There are two big ways to hold up against discard/masq:
1. Pile out quickly. With no other trashing (and no Tr/Kc/etc.) it takes a while before masq can thin down to a reliable engine. Yeah, it isn't exactly slow, but fast combos can win before it can strike too often.
2. Have a deck with just a few key cards that can nab provinces with just two of them so you can keep a copper around. For instance, golem decks are quite strong against masq/discard as you can keep a copper (or whatever) and your two important actions (golem/whatever) and play through most of your actions. Rebuild can similarly work to get a province off a one card play. Other digging cards also work (e.g. Hp). Limited draw cards like jack, Wt, and Lib all can get you back to a province buying hand and let you keep a copper in hand. Big draw like menage, hunting grounds, tactician, etc. can also let you keep around a copper and still kick off your own engine or hit enough cash to buy a province. Alt-VP can also be quite resistant - horse traders/duke has copper to keep and can hit 5 coin easy. Other shots like Iw/Gardens or Count/Silk Roads can also do pretty good at gaining more VP cards with a single action play - leaving 2 other slots in the 3 card hand for copper to be held.

Fg is fast, but unlike some other fast combos (HoP, Bridge, etc.) it slows down massively if has to aim for 8 provinces. It only depletes one pile itself, and tends not to easily pile out something else. Fg is normally the money strategy most hurt by green - not only does green increase your deck size, but it lowers the density (and hence expected value) or the Fg. The longer the game goes, the more time masq/discard has to force your economy (Fg & gold) or your VP into your opponent's deck.

Likewise, Fg is a card that is nearly useless in a 2 card hand. Very few of its enablers will let you get out of a 2 card hand with a province.

Is Fg particularly vulnerable? Debatable, though I'd lean a bit towards yes for the problems with density, game length, and lack of use in 2 card hands. However, discard/masq isn't a panacea and is strong enough to merit (sometimes) going for an engine against Fg.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2012, 01:41:58 pm »
0

I mentioned this on the frontpage comments as well, but I was surprised not to see Horse Traders on the list. It won't hold a candle to  Council Room or Wharf, but it's competitive with Remodel and Spice Merchant.
Horse Traders is not really competitive with Spice Merchant, and not even close to Remodel. It's probably at a slight disadvantage to Woodcutter. In most cases there is no difference, but HT can't ever buy more than a Province, since even if you draw it with 3 FGs, you have to discard one.
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blueblimp

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2012, 11:54:11 pm »
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Fg is a card that is nearly useless in a 2 card hand.
2 FG = Duchy. Few other cards can even get that much in a 2-card hand. Gold, and... that's all I can think of off-hand, unless you're drawing some more cards (esp. with Library and such, but of course Library can be mixed into a FG deck). Surely this makes FG one of the best cards if you're playing 2-card hands!

Edit: Of course this doesn't help you a ton if your opponent is reducing you to 2-cards every turn, but if there's discard+masq and a reliable engine on the board, why on earth are you not playing it? :P
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 11:59:43 pm by blueblimp »
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Hinterlands: Fool's Gold
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2012, 01:34:36 am »
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Horse Traders is not really competitive with Spice Merchant, and not even close to Remodel. It's probably at a slight disadvantage to Woodcutter. In most cases there is no difference, but HT can't ever buy more than a Province, since even if you draw it with 3 FGs, you have to discard one.
I revisited my results; you're right, HT is not very competitive with Remodel (56-40 underdog). But against Spice Merchant I have HT as a slight favorite, 49-45. Perhaps my bots are configured poorly?

Spice Merchant bot:
Code: [Select]
<player name="Fool's Gold/Spice Merchant"
 author="mischiefmaker"
 description="Surprisingly fast.">
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Competitive"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="18.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Spice_Merchant" strategy="FoolsGoldEnabler">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Spice_Merchant"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Fool$s_Gold"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Horse Traders bot:
Code: [Select]
<player name="Fool's Gold/Horse Traders"
 author="mischiefmaker"
 description="">
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Generated"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="18.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Horse_Traders">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Horse_Traders"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Fool$s_Gold"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
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