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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist  (Read 2295 times)

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4est

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2022, 09:00:05 pm »
+2



I still don't understand how Bureaucrat survived into the 2E Base, but man that card is so bad, even worse than some of the 1E removals like Woodcutter and Feast, which sure were boring, but at least usable on most boards. Bureaucrat usually just means a 9-card Kingdom.

Since Clerk from Prosperity 2E is already basically a "fixed" Bureaucrat, Scrivener is a more exotic variation as a cheap one-shot Attack with a non-terminal Armory on top (letting you gain more than just Silver) and then Clerk's same half-Ghost Ship attack. Opening with Scrivener kind of allows you to open with two $4s (though one will often miss the shuffle), with a mild Attack thrown in.

And hey, if you ever miss Bureaucrat, Scrivener can even do an imitation by topdecking Silver and forcing opponents to topdeck VP cards, except it's way better because afterwards you don't still have a Bureaucrat in your deck.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2022, 10:45:17 pm »
+2



This replaces Tax. Boy do I hate Tax. Don't get me started on Tax!

People on the Discord server helped me tweak this concept, because boy it was not easy to make this work.

FAQ: Set aside cards are part of a player's cards; it's considered "theirs". Set aside Curses and Provinces would count toward end game scoring, for instance.
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Udzu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2022, 02:26:07 am »
0

I hate Adventurer with an irrational passion. Not sure if this fixes it though.


I don’t think that suffices. The trashing is fairly weak and digging for two Treasures is arguable a $2.

You’re probably right. I forget quite how spectacularly mispriced Adventurer was (though disagree about it being a $2). I might let you choose play or trash separately for each card to speed up the trashing a bit. Also it provides virtual coin, which is sometimes useful. Still not a great card, but at least it’s not as terrible as the original.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 02:39:03 am by Udzu »
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binbag420

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2022, 04:23:54 am »
+1

I'll just clarify now, Events and other card shaped things are very much allowed
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xyz123

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2022, 05:00:21 am »
0

Upcycle
Action
$5

Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $3 more than it, that it shares a type with it.

Notes
- Replacement for Rebuild
- My objective to to stop the card having a monolithic strategy. To do this the card is now terminal and now trashes from your hand instead of digging through your deck. It now behaves more like the more traditional remodel family members.
- To keep the spirit of Rebuild, the price gap is still $3 so you can still turn Estates into Duchies and Duchies into Provinces, etc.
- To give something back to the card and to open up the scope of its use, it no longer just trashes and gains Victory cards. That restriction is now that the trashed and gained cards must share a type.

From the Allies Secret History: I also had an Expand that required the gained card to share a type with the trashed card. It only cost $4 and still wasn't exciting most games.

Thanks for the feedback. I have updated my original post with some updates. I have given the card some sifting ability to make it more interesting, which fits thematically with Rebuild.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2022, 11:58:38 am »
+2



Quote
Pickpocket - $3
Action/Reaction/Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player discards down to 4 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this from your hand, you may exchange it for an Assassin.
Quote
Assassin - $0*

Choose two: +2 Cards; +$2; trash two cards from your hand; or each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card.
The choices must be different.
(This is not in the Supply.)

These are replacing Urchin/Mercenary. Note that Pickpocket can be activated if it is discarded from your hand during Cleanup.
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Marpharos

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2022, 12:23:24 pm »
0

Here's my submission to replace Camel Train. I've been playing Dominion a long time, and I know I'm not the best, but I often introduce new people to the game who really enjoy it. The number of times I see people go for Camel Train and not get access to their exiled cards as they've not got enough money just makes me feel sad for their enjoyment of the game. So, you either exile or discard from exile, but there's still that wait to get the card. I did consider having the card be top-decked instead, but then you've just got Transport...


Caravanserai
$4
Action-Duration
Choose one: either Exile a non-Victory card costing up to $6 from the Supply now; or, at the start of your next turn, discard a card you have in Exile.


Edit- missed duration wording.... Oops!
Edit- added clause costing up to $6
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 01:41:20 pm by Marpharos »
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2022, 12:27:46 pm »
0

Here's my submission to replace Camel Train. I've been playing Dominion a long time, and I know I'm not the best, but I often introduce new people to the game who really enjoy it. The number of times I see people go for Camel Train and not get access to their exiled cards as they've not got enough money just makes me feel sad for their enjoyment of the game. So, you either exile or discard from exile, but there's still that wait to get the card. I did consider having the card be top-decked instead, but then you've just got Transport...


Caravanserai
$4
Action-Duration
Choose one: either Exile a non-Victory card from the Supply now; or discard a card from Exile.

You obviously are intending for there to be a delay to discard a card from Exile, but the card doesn't currently say that. What I think you meant to say was:

Quote
Choose one: Exile a non-Victory card from the Supply; or, at the start of your next turn, discard a card you have in Exile.

The Duration effect happening at the start of the next turn isn't implied under the rules (even if it's what happens in the vast majority of Duration cards).
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 12:29:28 pm by emtzalex »
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Thanks to Shard of Honor for his Extended Version of the Dominion Card Image Generator, which I use to mock up my fan cards, and to Violet CLM, who made the original.

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2022, 03:40:46 pm »
+13

Camel Train is perfectly fine. It should be obvious that the card puts stuff in the pipeline but does not help you access that very pipeline. I mean, gee, Thief was not overpowered just because every beginner feared him stealing your Coppers. People misevaluating or misplaying a card says very little about that very card.
Lucky for them, the contest isn't about rebalancing an already balanced card, nor is it to bump up an underpowered card or to take down a peg an overpowered card: It's about coming up with a variation to a card you personally do not enjoy.

You're not "misevaluating or misplaying" Camel Train by disliking it. The only thing their entry says about Camel Train is that they do not enjoy Camel Train, something that simply can't be put up to debate.
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X-tra

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2022, 04:22:00 pm »
+4

You say "fix the card", the contest and I say "come up with a variation of the card". That doesn't imply the same thing at all. Whether or not Camel Train is an already balanced, working card is irrelevant at all for the purpose of this contest. There are perfectly valid reasons to dislike a card that does not invoke balance in the slightest anyway. In fact, Marpharos and his "dudes and dudettes" shouldn't even try to justify their dislike of a balanced card: They just do and that's that. This qualifies for the contest. It's wonderful to see this thread not just full of Philosopher's Stone variants, you know what I'm sayin'.

This is the only point I was arguing about. As for their entry, I too find it to be somewhat problematic for the reasons you have highlighted, but that's a different subject.
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Marpharos

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2022, 05:23:55 pm »
0

You obviously are intending for there to be a delay to discard a card from Exile, but the card doesn't currently say that. What I think you meant to say was:

Quote
Choose one: Exile a non-Victory card from the Supply; or, at the start of your next turn, discard a card you have in Exile.

The Duration effect happening at the start of the next turn isn't implied under the rules (even if it's what happens in the vast majority of Duration cards).

Thanks, you're right that's what I meant! I've updated my submission now.

Camel Train is a well liked card in our group, but we don't have a ban list. I've just noticed that someone ends up getting a load of Gold too late to make a difference and thought I'd make a variation on the card to improve it for the groups I play with to help them play better.

I made it cost 4 so you don't automatically double open with it, removed the Gold gaining and made it so the card is discarded. I know it shares a design space with Transport, but things like WotSquirrel and Expedition share a design space, so I'm not worried about that.

Maybe it needs to cost $5 instead? Or limit the exile to a card costing up to $6? Some constructive feedback would be gratefully received!

Edit- clarity.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 12:23:53 pm by Marpharos »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2022, 07:43:23 pm »
+4

Mining Village is a variation of Village. The cards posted here are fixes. Now if the fix actually messes up whatever it tries to fix, that should be pointed out. And yeah, I even dared to point out that perhaps, just perhaps, trying to understand why whatever you dislike about a particular card because your buddies suck at playing with it might actually be the best feature of it which, in consequence, might make you think twice about fixing it.

Again the beaten to death Thief example. If some beginners hate Thief, you make them play even more games with Thief until they actually get how super weak it is. The fix would never ever be to nerf Thief. Your notion that pure subjectivity, not analyzing your preferences in any way, is a sound basis for good card design is simply wrong.

For example I don’t like Graverobber and I suck at it. Yet I know that this is just me, my irrelevant issue with this card, and I would never suggest that the card is bad just because I cannot deal with it well.

Do you know what the definition of insanity is?

Seriously dude, CTRL + F the word "fix" on this thread, and you'll see that you're the only one babbling about that (minus a comment made by the person who did their Adventurer variant - and Adventurer is not short of actually needing a fix, hence it being dropped from the game altogether). If my least favourite card of the game is Fool, because I don't like how much of a setup hog it is; or if my least favourite card is Witch because I only play Base and ewww, the junk; or if my least favourite card is pre-errata Prince because look at how much text there is on it - then all of these reasons could explain why I'd submit a variant of these cards on this thread. Certainly not because they bear a balance issue.

Also, consider that maybe if people suck with a card (as you nicely put), it may be because they do not like the card and are not interested to learn to play with it? A lot of people do that already with prime candidates such as Possession.

The only thing I'll die on the hill for is defend one's right to submit any card for this contest, because people can have all the reasons in the world to hate the card they want to replace. It's a subjective truth that can't be demolished by objective analyses about balancing and what not.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2022, 09:28:03 pm »
+8

The spiel about the definition of insanity, that's just a well-known quote from Far Cry 3, used when trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. In this context, I used it simply because we both just keep repeating what we already said while still failing to reach an understanding.

Also, you do not have a leg to stand on when it comes to being polite online. You straight up said that Marpharos' gaming friends suck at playing with Camel Train. You keep coming off as abrasive with statements such as "it should be obvious", or starting off with a condescending "I mean, gee [...]". If you truly advocate for civility, maybe tone that down a little.

I never denied anybody the right to post any idea. I just provided arguments for why I think that the card design is not good. Which is, in case you have not noticed yet, is what we always do here. Without insulting each other.
You didn't just do that. You did that, yes, and I said before I even agreed with you. But you also straight up said that Camel Train was already fine as-is, that his idea for a replacement said very little about Camel Train itself, and that to me looks a lot like negating their right to replace Camel Train altogether.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 09:30:40 pm by X-tra »
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2022, 07:33:34 am »
+10

segura, take a seat. you're being overly antagonistic here, especially for a person who doesn't put their own entry in to face criticism from others.

You're offering solely bad faith reads on other peoples comments, while pretending your own comments are entirely vitriol free. Please consider your tone and other player's experience designing cards in your criticism.

As far as anyone can post whatever they want here, uh, haven't you been banned before? For being an overly "sharp" critic during a contest we're all doing for fun? Tone it down. This is supposed to be for fun; please try to keep it fun.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 07:46:46 am by spineflu »
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AJL828

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2022, 03:52:04 pm »
+3



Zealot
Action ($4)

+2 Cards
You may play an Action card from your hand costing less than this.

This is a replacement for Cultist.

Cultist is a card that I have had banned for quite awhile now because I find it too "aggressively monolithic." My experience in many Cultist games has been to simply hit $5 early and spam them so that the other player is overflowed with Ruins and can't feasibly make a comeback. I do enjoy the concept of chaining into other Action plays if you fulfill the right conditions though, so I thought I'd give this a try. Zealot is a sort-of Lab variant that can only follow up with cheaper cards, and because of this it will never be able to play itself.
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nyxfulloftricks

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2022, 05:04:33 pm »
+1



Herding Dogs
Action ($4)

+1 Action
Choose one: Trash up to 2 cards from your hand; or +1 Card per card any player trashed on their last turn.

This is a replacement for Goatherd.

Goatherd is card that has felt a bit weak in two player games when your opponent just never trashes or you are unfortunate enough to never have a goatherd the turn after your opponent trashes. This weakness is felt additionally in games with a higher player count if the opponent to your right just chooses not to trash. I wanted to smooth out that play by allowing players to draw off of their own trashing every other turn.
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sumrex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2022, 06:25:57 am »
0

Legendary fisherman 2 1$*
+1 Card
+1 Villager
+1 Coffers

During your turns, this costs 2$ more per card in your discard pile or in play.

Replaces fisherman, I hate that thing with a passion. This makes it impossible to get  in the opening and makes Gold stronger if not anything like sacred grove is in the kingdom. Cost increase may be a rules nightmare, but that isn't my problem here :)
I made it so instead of being cheaper when the discard is empty is just punishes for more cards in your discard. And because i wanted to make it less swingy, it counts in play too.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 06:09:03 am by sumrex »
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binbag420

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2022, 09:04:43 am »
+1

24 Hour Warning
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arowdok

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2022, 12:58:58 pm »
0

Here is my entry
I know why this couldn't be in Renaissance it is far too close to Ducat which is a card I do enjoy. Original Cargo Chip is just super bad as a terminal Action card. Also old Cargo Ship only storing 1 card felt super bad too so here are my shifts to the card. Also I think Treasure - Duration could have been in Renaissance as it uses both types.

Quote
Cargo Ship II
$2
Treasure - Duration
+1 Coffers
+1 Buy
This turn, when you gain a card, you may set it aside face up (on this). At the start of your next turn, put them into your hand.

EDIT: updated cost it should be $2 not $4
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 08:21:34 pm by arowdok »
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Marpharos

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2022, 01:42:13 pm »
0

Amended my submission, edits on the original post.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2022, 11:15:34 pm »
+2

Arctic Forge
Action - Duration - $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may play a Treasure from your hand, putting it under this. At the start of your next turn, put it in your hand. You may play a Sampo from your hand.

Sampo
Action - $5
+3 Cards
You may play an Arctic Forge from your hand.

Replacement for Sauna/Avanto, with the names taken from Finnish mythology. I like how Sauna/Avanto can play each other but Sauna's trashing ability is the big problem. It's luck-based, and leads to the pile either being totally dominating or completely ignored depending on if there's better trashing. With Arctic Forge I tried to make something that would play better in the presence of other piles. In the beginning it's like Caravan Guard, but it can also keep stop cards out of the shuffle. It can be considered sort of an improved Crypt, one that's easier to use but that can only be used on a single Treasure.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 11:21:07 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2022, 03:37:24 am »
0

Cursed city $3
Action
+2 action
+2 cards
-
When you gain this card, gain an curse

I hate lost cities power level. That downside of al players drawing an card when you gain it is just too less impactfull.

I like this design more at $4 and gain an ruin, but ruins are from another set
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sumrex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2022, 07:34:31 am »
0

Cursed city $3
Action
+2 action
+2 cards
-
When you gain this card, gain an curse

I hate lost cities power level. That downside of al players drawing an card when you gain it is just too less impactfull.

I like this design more at $4 and gain an ruin, but ruins are from another set

I would say a curse isnt really enough to make lost city at 3 balanced. I would suggest 2 coppers, that would probably make it okay.
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binbag420

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2022, 10:23:52 am »
+4

CONTEST CLOSED

Ive got a party on tonight but tomorrow (or tonight if i can be bothered) I'll judge the entries.
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spheremonk

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #163: Cleaning The Banlist
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2022, 11:20:50 pm »
0

I hate Adventurer with an irrational passion. Not sure if this fixes it for me though.




I have a replacement for Adventurer as well:

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