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[dmk]

I thought it might be helpful for new players (myself included) to post a random kingdom each day (probably not that often) and get some discussion going around what your opening would be with both 5/2 and 4/3 and what your general game-plan is. Maybe even some variations around 2-player and 3/4-player too. Hopefully this can offer some additional insight into how to think about the game over-the-board with a variety of kingdoms.

So today's board: http://dominiondeck.com/games/ootd-1

Alchemist
Ironworks
Treasure Map
Council Room
Saboteur
Watchtower
Spy
Bazaar
Market
Venture

[dmk]

So my caveat is I'm fairly familiar with Base/Intrigue/Seaside since I own those and am not very familiar with Alchemy/Prosperity/Cornucopia except for the 1-2 cards that get rolled each game I play on iso.

There don't appear to be any good deck-trimming cards, so Venture seems unnecessary when you can easily be drawing copper with it. Spy/Watchtower also seem unimpressive here.

Sadly the only real terminals are Saboteur, Treasure Map, and Council Room...

I hate to play both of the Saboteur/Map games, but it seems as though the board demands it. I think my plan would involve going Silver until I can purchase Market/Bazaar and then transition into Saboteur/Gold.

Kind of a gross board and one that probably isn't great as the first in this series, but I always play with what I'm dealt!

[kn1tt3r]

Since there is no trashing card, I see two ways to go, and I'd probably decide depending on the opening:
4/3 => Potion/Silver for an Alchemist deck with like 2 Markets for +buys
5/2 => probably Council Room/nothing to go for Big Money with Gold and Ventures.

[livious]

Same, except I'd be buying Council Room planning on Alchemists.

[DStu]

3p: Alchemist
3: Watchtower
4: Ironworks
4: Treasure Map
4: Spy
5: Council Room
5: Saboteur
5: Bazaar
5: Market
5: Venture

Random thoughts on potentially intersting cards and the setup:
a) Ironworks -> no intersting cards for <=4.
b) no trashing
c) Only expensive cards for action/draw Engine
d) Treasure Map is difficult under this conditions
e) Venture also

So for me the interesting cards is the Alchemist in this setup. Spice this up with a Councilroom in midgame for +Buy. So start would be Potion/Silver. Get a second Potion somewhen to stabilize the Alchemist chain and get more, 1 CR, +some Gold, see what happens.  5/2 take the Councilroom to accelerate the start, Market, Bazaar, Venture are quite weak at the start, Saboteur is Saboteur, but of course a danger for the alchemists if you don't manage to get them back on top of the discard-pile (or if you have more than 5, which is prob. not a good idea against saboteurs anyway).
Alternative take Markets instead of CR, but I would guess CR is stronger.

Seems like a good question for Geronimoo's simulator...

[guided]

Potion/Silver. Saboteur might cause problems for an Alchemist deck, but I'm not worried enough about it to go for a different strategy. Get another Potion with your next $4 buy, and for $5 always buy Market. If you don't have a Market by the time you have a few Alchemists, you should take a Market at some point even with $6-$7.

5/2 sucks here. Venture/nothing and go Big Money I guess? Bazaar/Council Room is a possibility... but not a very good one.

[dmk]

I'll have to play around with Alchemist since its clearly favored by everyone so far

[DStu]

So simulator:

<player name="Alchemist/CR/Venture">
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Council_Room">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Council_Room"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Alchemist">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Alchemist"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Potion">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Potion"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Venture"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Victory Points>Gold>1CR>5Alchemist>1Potion>Venture>Silver
was the best I could find this fast compared with Markets thrown in and/or Ventures taken out.

Edit: OK, it looses by far against _SingleCouncilroom
Edit2: And WanderingWilders

[WanderingWinder]

So a really horrible board. Best is probably to buy Silver at 3-4, Council Room on your first 5 then venture thereafter until you go green, gold on 6+, and pretty much play big money... very boring. Treasure Map is going to be dreadful without any enablers, and Saboteur is just quite weak. There's no reason to prefer Bazaar to market really, and Market itself just isn't good enough to justify getting it.
I don't have tons of experience in multiplayer, but I can't imagine it's going to be all that different.

I should note that Alchemist generally isn't worth it just by itself. Some quick sims show that it's not good enough to compete with big money without some other help, and there's not enough other help here.
If anybody wants to post a player for Geronimoo's simulator which can beat mean, I'd much appreciate it:
<player name="OotD1">
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Venture">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Venture">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Venture"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Council_Room">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Council_Room"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Venture"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

[WanderingWinder]

DStu, yours doesn't even beat my Big Money mock-up

[DStu]

Yes, I realized it looses _SingleCR etc... and yours by 20:80

[guided]

Oh, duh, if you're going Big Money you definitely want a Council Room eventually. I should have said that

I'd still rather open Venture than CR though.

[Kuildeous]

For what it's worth, I think this is a great idea. It lets the advanced players share their thought processes so that inexperienced players can gain some insight. I could have used this when I was learning to play.

FWIW, I was thinking of Silver/Potion to get the Alchemist going, but the comment about how this setup doesn't really help Alchemists has given me pause. I might just go Big Money with some Watchtower for grins.

If I had 5/2, I'd probably go Council Room. Sure, it'd give the other players an extra card, but the potential of buying a Gold in Turn 3 is pretty tasty.

If someone went Saboteur, I might buy the occasional Spy as a sort of meager defense, but I'm not convinced it'd be worth it.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Oh, duh, if you're going Big Money you definitely want a Council Room eventually. I should have said that

I'd still rather open Venture than CR though.

I generally don't like council room when you can't use the +buy, but venture/nothing on 5/2 will have a hard time getting gold before the second shuffle (until you have another treasure in your deck, it's like silver/nothing), while council room/nothing, on the other hand, is at least 50/50 to get gold the first time you draw the council room and will help a lot with cycling.

[WanderingWinder]

Oh, duh, if you're going Big Money you definitely want a Council Room eventually. I should have said that

I'd still rather open Venture than CR though.

My intuition said otherwise, and the sim's backing me up - making sure you have a venture before you grab the CR doesn't score as well in the head-to-head matchup

[penndog]

I think I might try for the treasure maps, using ironworks.

4/3 I would go ironworks/watchtower
after that if I got a 5: bazzar, 4: treasure map, 3: silver. 
Hopefully I could pull off a ironworks/watchtower/treasure map combo 
After my treasure maps hit, I would switch to venture on 5 (although I might grab a council room if I didn't have one yet).

5/2 I would go bazzar/nothing and follow the plan above.

[WanderingWinder]

The Treasure maps get crushed, about 80/20

[Geronimoo]

The Treasure maps get crushed, about 80/20

If you tried to simulate a treasure map strategy involving Ironworks and/or Watchtower it won't produce reliable results, because my simulator will make lots of mistakes (like always playing the Watchtower instead of holding it in hand and thousands more misplays...).

Oh and I beat your bot, WanderingWinder. I tweaked the buy rules just a little by waiting to buy Province until you have 2 Golds and buying Duchy a little earlier. (Also I was able to eliminate some rules that didn't affect the win rate much). This bot beats yours 49-to-43 (even 57-to-37 when both players open $5/$2):
 

Code: [Select]

<player name="OotD1 Geronimoo">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Venture">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Council_Room">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Council_Room"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Venture"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>


[WanderingWinder]

I imagined there were some tweaks that would beat it, maybe not by that much, in the fine-tune. Nice!

[WanderingWinder]

Although re-tweaking a bit, it seems it's better to wait for only 1 gold - very very slightly beats yours like 47/46 over about 30k games

[Geronimoo]

When the games get that close you need 100,000 simulations to find the best strategy But that would not be very useful in real play. It is however clearly better to have a Gold before going for green. Oh, and this is actually a very fast board despite the lack of engines: 15 turns, which means Treasure Map strategies are way too slow/erratic as are Alchemist strategies.

[DG]

I'd be tempted to play alchemists plus council room. This is a reasonable combination since you get the extra buy and the council room reduces the chance of the potions hiding at the back of the deck. I've never tried venture + potions but perhaps that would work too. I wouldn't want to open with a council room however just in case the opponent bought treasure maps.

[Staples]

Alchemist is a fun card, and I tried to get it to work with this board, but I found that getting one or two potions right away, and then some Alchemists, with a CR thrown in; it just seems to be much too slow. If there was a single attack that didn't suck, it might have some potential. I had better luck, but still not very good, with Saboteur and Bazaar.

I would have to agree, double silver start, or a CR/nothing, maybe a Watchtower, and then Big money is probably your best bet.

[Geronimoo]

I wouldn't want to open with a council room however just in case the opponent bought treasure maps.

That's just irrational fear of the opponent getting lucky. Sure, he might get a lucky turn 5 activation and win, but in the long run he'll have to wait a lot longer than that and lose big time.

[IamOBESE]

I think I overuse alchemist, since I have fun drawing my own deck. Interesting that big money is so much better in this case

This has been educational